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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #8545713 - 06/20/08 09:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I'm of the firm belief that it most certainly did work and you're just covering up the truth

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8545945 - 06/20/08 11:09 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
All these retarded myths about 9/11 only makes it harder for people to discover the truth. Its sad to see that people think the government has the capability of pulling off of such a complex event, and doubting and underestimating Al Qaeda and their abilities.

And anyone who disagree's with the truthers is labeled as a "sheep" or shill for some international conspiracy. Its intellectual dishonesty of the most highest degree, its bullhorn politics at its worst.




Guys in caves versus guys with control of Norad, NSA, CIA and all those other alphabet agencies. With near unlimited funds to do whatever they want, versus guys in caves with klashnikovs.

One's more concerned with the poppy harvest and the health of goats.
One's more concerned about building a pipeline from Uzbekistan to Pakistan through Afghanistan.





Not guys in caves, guys who ran  complex charity fronts and pocketed millions off tons of blackmarket schemes., people who destroyed 2 US embassies, bombed a destroyer, assassinated key figures like massoud, bombed nightclubs in Indonesia, they fight seperatist wars in Algeria, the Moro Islands, in Indonesia, in Yemen, in Iraq. Names like Fatah Al Islam operating in Lebanon, or Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb in Algeria. They are an incredibly sophisticated "Base" of Jihad and they operate every where from Chechnya to Europe and the US. Writing off their actions as simply a bunch of cavedwellers is about as ignorant as Bush confusing Sunni's and Shiia.

Edited by The_Red_Crayon (06/20/08 11:11 PM)

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OfflineMutatis Mutandis
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8545973 - 06/20/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
All these retarded myths about 9/11 only makes it harder for people to discover the truth. Its sad to see that people think the government has the capability of pulling off of such a complex event, and doubting and underestimating Al Qaeda and their abilities.

And anyone who disagree's with the truthers is labeled as a "sheep" or shill for some international conspiracy. Its intellectual dishonesty of the most highest degree, its bullhorn politics at its worst.




Guys in caves versus guys with control of Norad, NSA, CIA and all those other alphabet agencies. With near unlimited funds to do whatever they want, versus guys in caves with klashnikovs.

One's more concerned with the poppy harvest and the health of goats.
One's more concerned about building a pipeline from Uzbekistan to Pakistan through Afghanistan.





Not guys in caves, guys who ran  complex charity fronts and pocketed millions off tons of blackmarket schemes., people who destroyed 2 US embassies, bombed a destroyer, assassinated key figures like massoud, bombed nightclubs in Indonesia, they fight seperatist wars in Algeria, the Moro Islands, in Indonesia, in Yemen, in Iraq. Names like Fatah Al Islam operating in Lebanon, or Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb in Algeria. They are an incredibly sophisticated "Base" of Jihad and they operate every where from Chechnya to Europe and the US. Writing off their actions as simply a bunch of cavedwellers is about as ignorant as Bush confusing Sunni's and Shiia.





well said..


--------------------
"what is it called when the assassins accuse the assassin?"

"Sometimes you're flush and sometimes you're bust, and when you're up, it's never as good as it seems, and when you're down, you never think you'll be up again, but life goes on."

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #8545980 - 06/20/08 11:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
I don't think Al Qaeda has any abilities.  In fact I don't believe that they don't exist at all.  If they did they would be able to come over here and cause terror, it's not like there is anything stopping them. 

Its obvious that 9/11 was a large conspiracy.  Who stands to benefit from that?  Certainly no one in Al Qaeda. 

It is well documented that the patriot act was written well before 9/11, they were just waiting for a convenient excuse to roll it out.  The easiest way to manipulate a large group of people is to kill a few.




:poopontoast:




If you think the government needs some giant catastrophe to write some bogus legislation that 2/3rds of has already been struck down by courts and the rest expires in a few years. Use some common sense people, the government has done some deplorable things, a lot of governments have, the government had nothing financially benficial to gain from 9/11, and Al Qaeda didnt attack for financial reasons either, you think a outfit that employs suicide bombers are recruited mostly for financial reasons?

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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8546648 - 06/21/08 07:09 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
All these retarded myths about 9/11 only makes it harder for people to discover the truth. Its sad to see that people think the government has the capability of pulling off of such a complex event, and doubting and underestimating Al Qaeda and their abilities.

And anyone who disagree's with the truthers is labeled as a "sheep" or shill for some international conspiracy. Its intellectual dishonesty of the most highest degree, its bullhorn politics at its worst.




Guys in caves versus guys with control of Norad, NSA, CIA and all those other alphabet agencies. With near unlimited funds to do whatever they want, versus guys in caves with klashnikovs.

One's more concerned with the poppy harvest and the health of goats.
One's more concerned about building a pipeline from Uzbekistan to Pakistan through Afghanistan.





Not guys in caves, guys who ran  complex charity fronts and pocketed millions off tons of blackmarket schemes., people who destroyed 2 US embassies, bombed a destroyer, assassinated key figures like massoud, bombed nightclubs in Indonesia, they fight seperatist wars in Algeria, the Moro Islands, in Indonesia, in Yemen, in Iraq. Names like Fatah Al Islam operating in Lebanon, or Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb in Algeria. They are an incredibly sophisticated "Base" of Jihad and they operate every where from Chechnya to Europe and the US. Writing off their actions as simply a bunch of cavedwellers is about as ignorant as Bush confusing Sunni's and Shiia.




Ohh! You mean the Mujahadeen! The ones the CIA trained to fight proxy wars in Afghanistan versus the soviets, then to attack the serbs in Bosnia?

Quote:

How the CIA created Osama bin Laden

19 September 2001

BY NORM DIXON

“Throughout the world ... its agents, client states and satellites are on the defensive — on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive, and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They're doing so on almost every continent populated by man — in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America ... [They are] freedom fighters.”

Is this a call to jihad (holy war) taken from one of Islamic fundamentalist Osama bin Laden's notorious fatwas? Or perhaps a communique issued by the repressive Taliban regime in Kabul?

In fact, this glowing praise of the murderous exploits of today's supporters of arch-terrorist bin Laden and his Taliban collaborators, and their holy war against the “evil empire”, was issued by US President Ronald Reagan on March 8, 1985. The “evil empire” was the Soviet Union, as well as Third World movements fighting US-backed colonialism, apartheid and dictatorship.

How things change. In the aftermath of a series of terrorist atrocities — the most despicable being the mass murder of more than 6000 working people in New York and Washington on September 11 — bin Laden the “freedom fighter” is now lambasted by US leaders and the Western mass media as a “terrorist mastermind” and an “evil-doer”.

Yet the US government refuses to admit its central role in creating the vicious movement that spawned bin Laden, the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalist terrorists that plague Algeria and Egypt — and perhaps the disaster that befell New York.

The mass media has also downplayed the origins of bin Laden and his toxic brand of Islamic fundamentalism.
Mujaheddin

In April 1978, the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) seized power in Afghanistan in reaction to a crackdown against the party by that country's repressive government.

The PDPA was committed to a radical land reform that favoured the peasants, trade union rights, an expansion of education and social services, equality for women and the separation of church and state. The PDPA also supported strengthening Afghanistan's relationship with the Soviet Union.

Such policies enraged the wealthy semi-feudal landlords, the Muslim religious establishment (many mullahs were also big landlords) and the tribal chiefs. They immediately began organising resistance to the government's progressive policies, under the guise of defending Islam.

Washington, fearing the spread of Soviet influence (and worse the new government's radical example) to its allies in Pakistan, Iran and the Gulf states, immediately offered support to the Afghan mujaheddin, as the “contra” force was known.

Following an internal PDPA power struggle in December 1979 which toppled Afghanistan's leader, thousands of Soviet troops entered the country to prevent the new government's fall. This only galvanised the disparate fundamentalist factions. Their reactionary jihad now gained legitimacy as a “national liberation” struggle in the eyes of many Afghans.

The Soviet Union was eventually to withdraw from Afghanistan in 1989 and the mujaheddin captured the capital, Kabul, in 1992.

Between 1978 and 1992, the US government poured at least US$6 billion (some estimates range as high as $20 billion) worth of arms, training and funds to prop up the mujaheddin factions. Other Western governments, as well as oil-rich Saudi Arabia, kicked in as much again. Wealthy Arab fanatics, like Osama bin Laden, provided millions more.

Washington's policy in Afghanistan was shaped by US President Jimmy Carter's national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and was continued by his successors. His plan went far beyond simply forcing Soviet troops to withdraw; rather it aimed to foster an international movement to spread Islamic fanaticism into the Muslim Central Asian Soviet republics to destabilise the Soviet Union.

Brzezinski's grand plan coincided with Pakistan military dictator General Zia ul-Haq's own ambitions to dominate the region. US-run Radio Liberty and Radio Free Europe beamed Islamic fundamentalist tirades across Central Asia (while paradoxically denouncing the “Islamic revolution” that toppled the pro-US Shah of Iran in 1979).

Washington's favoured mujaheddin faction was one of the most extreme, led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. The West's distaste for terrorism did not apply to this unsavoury “freedom fighter”. Hekmatyar was notorious in the 1970s for throwing acid in the faces of women who refused to wear the veil.

After the mujaheddin took Kabul in 1992, Hekmatyar's forces rained US-supplied missiles and rockets on that city — killing at least 2000 civilians — until the new government agreed to give him the post of prime minister. Osama bin Laden was a close associate of Hekmatyar and his faction.

Hekmatyar was also infamous for his side trade in the cultivation and trafficking in opium. Backing of the mujaheddin from the CIA coincided with a boom in the drug business. Within two years, the Afghanistan-Pakistan border was the world's single largest source of heroin, supplying 60% of US drug users.

In 1995, the former director of the CIA's operation in Afghanistan was unrepentant about the explosion in the flow of drugs: “Our main mission was to do as much damage as possible to the Soviets... There was a fallout in terms of drugs, yes. But the main objective was accomplished. The Soviets left Afghanistan.”
Made in the USA

According to Ahmed Rashid, a correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review, in 1986 CIA chief William Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI proposal to recruit from around the world to join the Afghan jihad. At least 100,000 Islamic militants flocked to Pakistan between 1982 and 1992 (some 60,000 attended fundamentalist schools in Pakistan without necessarily taking part in the fighting).

John Cooley, a former journalist with the US ABC television network and author of Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, has revealed that Muslims recruited in the US for the mujaheddin were sent to Camp Peary, the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where young Afghans, Arabs from Egypt and Jordan, and even some African-American “black Muslims” were taught “sabotage skills”.

The November 1, 1998, British Independent reported that one of those charged with the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ali Mohammed, had trained “bin Laden's operatives” in 1989.

These “operatives” were recruited at the al Kifah Refugee Centre in Brooklyn, New York, given paramilitary training in the New York area and then sent to Afghanistan with US assistance to join Hekmatyar's forces. Mohammed was a member of the US army's elite Green Berets.

The program, reported the Independent, was part of a Washington-approved plan called “Operation Cyclone”.

In Pakistan, recruits, money and equipment were distributed to the mujaheddin factions by an organisation known as Maktab al Khidamar (Office of Services — MAK).

MAK was a front for Pakistan's CIA, the Inter-Service Intelligence Directorate. The ISI was the first recipient of the vast bulk of CIA and Saudi Arabian covert assistance for the Afghan contras. Bin Laden was one of three people who ran MAK. In 1989, he took overall charge of MAK.

Among those trained by Mohammed were El Sayyid Nosair, who was jailed in 1995 for killing Israeli rightist Rabbi Meir Kahane and plotting with others to bomb New York landmarks, including the World Trade Center in 1993.

The Independent also suggested that Shiekh Omar Abdel-Rahman, an Egyptian religious leader also jailed for the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, was also part of Operation Cyclone. He entered the US in 1990 with the CIA's approval. A confidential CIA report concluded that the agency was “partly culpable” for the 1993 World Trade Center blast, the Independent reported.
Bin Laden

Osama bin Laden, one of 20 sons of a billionaire construction magnate, arrived in Afghanistan to join the jihad in 1980. An austere religious fanatic and business tycoon, bin Laden specialised in recruiting, financing and training the estimated 35,000 non-Afghan mercenaries who joined the mujaheddin.

The bin Laden family is a prominent pillar of the Saudi Arabian ruling class, with close personal, financial and political ties to that country's pro-US royal family.

Bin Laden senior was appointed Saudi Arabia's minister of public works as a favour by King Faisal. The new minister awarded his own construction companies lucrative contracts to rebuild Islam's holiest mosques in Mecca and Medina. In the process, the bin Laden family company in 1966 became the world's largest private construction company.

Osama bin Laden's father died in 1968. Until 1994, he had access to the dividends from this ill-gotten business empire.

(Bin Laden junior's oft-quoted personal fortune of US$200-300 million has been arrived at by the US State Department by dividing today's value of the bin Laden family net worth — estimated to be US$5 billion — by the number of bin Laden senior's sons. A fact rarely mentioned is that in 1994 the bin Laden family disowned Osama and took control of his share.)

Osama's military and business adventures in Afghanistan had the blessing of the bin Laden dynasty and the reactionary Saudi Arabian regime. His close working relationship with MAK also meant that the CIA was fully aware of his activities.

Milt Bearden, the CIA's station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, admitted to the January 24, 2000, New Yorker that while he never personally met bin Laden, “Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did.”

In 1986, bin Laden brought heavy construction equipment from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan. Using his extensive knowledge of construction techniques (he has a degree in civil engineering), he built “training camps”, some dug deep into the sides of mountains, and built roads to reach them.

These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”

Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company — albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with “legitimate” business operations.

Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s — fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.

Bin Laden only became a “terrorist” in US eyes when he fell out with the Saudi royal family over its decision to allow more than 540,000 US troops to be stationed on Saudi soil following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

When thousands of US troops remained in Saudi Arabia after the end of the Gulf War, bin Laden's anger turned to outright opposition. He declared that Saudi Arabia and other regimes — such as Egypt — in the Middle East were puppets of the US, just as the PDPA government of Afghanistan had been a puppet of the Soviet Union.

He called for the overthrow of these client regimes and declared it the duty of all Muslims to drive the US out of the Gulf states. In 1994, he was stripped of his Saudi citizenship and forced to leave the country. His assets there were frozen.

After a period in Sudan, he returned to Afghanistan in May 1996. He refurbished the camps he had helped build during the Afghan war and offered the facilities and services — and thousands of his mercenaries — to the Taliban, which took power that September.

Today, bin Laden's private army of non-Afghan religious fanatics is a key prop of the Taliban regime.

Prior to the devastating September 11 attack on the twin towers of World Trade Center, US ruling-class figures remained unrepentant about the consequences of their dirty deals with the likes of bin Laden, Hekmatyar and the Taliban. Since the awful attack, they have been downright hypocritical.

In an August 28, 1998, report posted on MSNBC, Michael Moran quotes Senator Orrin Hatch, who was a senior member of the Senate Intelligence Committee which approved US dealings with the mujaheddin, as saying he would make “the same call again”, even knowing what bin Laden would become.

“It was worth it. Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union.”

Hatch today is one of the most gung-ho voices demanding military retaliation.

Another face that has appeared repeatedly on television screens since the attack has been Vincent Cannistrano, described as a former CIA chief of “counter-terrorism operations”.

Cannistrano is certainly an expert on terrorists like bin Laden, because he directed their “work”. He was in charge of the CIA-backed Nicaraguan contras during the early 1980s. In 1984, he became the supervisor of covert aid to the Afghan mujaheddin for the US National Security Council.

The last word goes to Zbigniew Brzezinski: “What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?”




http://www.greenleft.org.au/2001/465/25199


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8546662 - 06/21/08 07:20 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Ahh, the ministry of truth is cranking out the bollocks again.

BBC Set To Launch New Smear Attack On 9/11 Truth

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Friday, June 20, 2008

The BBC is set to launch another savage smear attack on the 9/11 truth movement with two documentaries about the September 11 attacks and the 7/7 bombings that attempt to debunk evidence of government complicity and smear doubters of the official story as holocaust deniers, Neo-Nazis, and crop circle fanatics.

Having taken its rightful place alongside Popular Mechanics and The History Channel as one of the 21st century’s most plentiful peddlers of yellow journalism with their first 9/11 hit piece last year, "Auntie Beeb" is set to have another crack at the whip on July 6th when it airs a documentary about the collapse of WTC Building 7, the 47-storey skyscraper that imploded into its own footprint on 9/11 without being hit by a plane, called The Third Tower.

The preview clip for the show claims that the program will offer the solution to the "final mystery of 9/11," presumably self-satisfied that the BBC’s previous woeful effort to debunk 9/11 truth dismissed the mountains of other contradictions and outright falsehoods of the official story.

Judging from the end of the clip, it seems as if the BBC is ready to violate the fundamental laws of physics and proclaim that fire caused the steel-framed building to collapse, an unprecedented event in history.

The making of the show was undoubtedly motivated by the BBC themselves having been shamed last year by footage that emerged of them reporting the collapse of Building 7 before it had happened, a revelation that prompted a series of blundering PR gaffes on behalf of the corporation and seemingly a vendetta against 9/11 truthers who bombarded the company with bad publicity at the time.

The BBC’s flustered attempts to adopt damage control over questions about why their correspondent reported the collapse of Building 7 before it happened only provoked a firestorm of new interest in 9/11 truth and exalted questions surrounding WTC 7 to the point where it is now the Achilles’ heel of the official conspiracy theory.

The new hit piece features an interview with 9/11 shill extraordinaire and former chief counter-terrorism adviser to the White House Richard Clarke, who denies a controlled demolition took down Building 7.

The BBC’s first stab at debunking the 9/11 truth movement was a jaw-dropping exercise in journalistic prostitution more befitting of state-controlled TV stations in Communist China or Zimbabwe.




The show was a tissue of lies, bias and emotional manipulation from beginning to end, structured around fallacy, lying by omission and an overwhelming dearth of impartiality.

During a follow-up radio debate, producer Guy Smith had no answers for the plethora of inaccuracies that littered the program.

The BBC has also completed a documentary on the 7/7 bombings, set to air in Autumn, which puts forward an individual called Nick Kollerstrom as the main proponent of "conspiracy theories" surrounding the 2005 London Underground attacks.

Despite the fact that we were at the forefront of 7/7 coverage immediately after it happened and have produced scores of articles on the subject that received millions of readers, the BBC did not choose to speak to us and instead interviewed a radical astrologist who also dabbles in crop circles, holocaust denial and making apologies for Hitler.

Kollerstrom is just about the wackiest person the BBC could have picked to represent alternative explanations behind 7/7. The idea behind it is simple - pick a nutcase closet Neo-Nazi to talk about 7/7 thus sending a very clear message to the viewer - anyone who questions the official government story behind 7/7 is a holocaust denier, a lunatic, and potentially dangerous.

In pursuing such dirty smear tactics once again, the BBC has proven itself to be not only biased and agenda-driven, but the producers of the show have displayed their complete ineptness in judging who to interview for the documentary.

"The stakes are high because conspiracy theories are spreading suspicion about the official account of what happened, ultimately questioning whether the authorities can be trusted," writes producer Mike Rudin. "Establishing whether what is argued is true or false, and scrutinising the way proponents conduct themselves, is clearly in the public interest and is a serious and legitimate task for the BBC."

Oh diddums, now we wouldn’t want to question whether the authorities should be trusted now would we Mike? Because we know governments never lie, have never engaged in any conspiracies and always have the interests of the people at heart.

The BBC thinks it is in the "public interest" and a "legitimate task" to run defense for this criminal Blair-Brown government that has already aided in the slaughter of over 600,000 innocent people in Iraq based on their own conspiracy theories about weapons of mass destruction, by smearing anyone that questions the official story behind 7/7.

This is a damning indictment of how the BBC views itself and corporate media today as a whole - not as an independent media outlet tasked with putting politicians’ feet to the fire, muckraking, and asking hard questions - but acting as a Ministry of Truth to put a lid on the shocking facts behind 7/7 and backing up a Labour government that has refused all along to allow a proper investigation into the bombings come hell or high water.

"Scrutinising the way proponents conduct themselves," as Rudin calls it is merely newspeak for "taking the piss out of mentally unstable Neo-Nazis and then claiming they represent conspiracy theorists."

The BBC masquerades as some kind of credible arbiter of "case closed" truth, yet the corporation is almost universally loathed in the United Kingdom because Britons are forced to fund its existence through a TV license tax and in return the BBC provides them with utter garbage on a regular basis.

The BBC’s latest serving of yellow journalism is likely to be little improvement.

We invite readers to leave a comment on producer Mike Rudin’s blog so as to give him the opportunity to write a new blog expressing his phony outrage to hostile put-downs of his career in yellow journalism.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8547600 - 06/21/08 01:46 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

The CIA trained a lot of people in Afghanistan and Bosnia, It was much easier to fund proxy militias then to actually land boots on the ground in a foreign country. Yes, it was a stupid idea to get in tight with these fanatics, theirs a few CIA agents that turned double and are now even helping certain Al Qaeda cells. the Inter Services Intelligence still do this day supports a large number of Taliban and Baitullah Mehsud.

But culpability in international terrorism is intellectually dishonest. A belief shared by disillusioned people ignorant about our own intelligence apparatus.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8547835 - 06/21/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ohh! You mean the Mujahadeen! The ones the CIA trained to fight proxy wars in Afghanistan versus the soviets, then to attack the serbs in Bosnia?




Address his post refuting the "cave dweller" comment. Your above post has nothing to do with refuting anything.

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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Redstorm]
    #8547896 - 06/21/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Ohh! You mean the Mujahadeen! The ones the CIA trained to fight proxy wars in Afghanistan versus the soviets, then to attack the serbs in Bosnia?




Address his post refuting the "cave dweller" comment. Your above post has nothing to do with refuting anything.




Why? He'll just say that Al-Queda were able to infiltrate Norad and were able to break the laws of physics.


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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8547922 - 06/21/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Strawman. Address the refutation.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8547934 - 06/21/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Go away.  You are miles removed from rational and every post you make is a further indictment.  Some nonsense from greenleft written 9/19/2001 and another paranoid Alex Jones screed.  This crap belongs in religion and/or paranormal.


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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8548016 - 06/21/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

You think the CIA actually cut ties with Al-Queda?  After the Cold War the US needed another excuse for military action, so the CIA had another job for Al-Queda.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8548048 - 06/21/08 04:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

:tinfoil: Step off the ledge.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8548242 - 06/21/08 06:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

which way?

window or long step?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8548327 - 06/21/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I'm all for personal choice in matters such as these.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Cannashroom]
    #8548517 - 06/21/08 07:18 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
You think the CIA actually cut ties with Al-Queda?  After the Cold War the US needed another excuse for military action, so the CIA had another job for Al-Queda.




The CIA funded a lot of mujahadeen, they thought that the mujahadeen were targeting USSR exclusively. Most of them were, but Osama and Zawhiri wanted to export the jihad globally and form a base of recruitment and financing. So they formed ties with many indepedent seperatist groups in other countries, offering them fighters and financing in return for fealty to the agenda of a large caliphate and deposing secular arab rulers, and allegiance against the US,Iran, Israel, and The west.

Of such a large amount of fighters, their is bound to be a few MI6 or CIA double agents, throw enough monkeys on a typewriter and you are bound to have Hamlet, but official culpability, and ill reiterate is a most ludicrous assesment. The CIA never knowingly supported Al Qaeda, or Maktab al Khidamat when it distributed the funds to ISI to finance the militias.

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8549192 - 06/21/08 11:44 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

This thread (though not unexpectedly) has gotten a little less civil than it aught to be.
So, to all of you who explicitly deny a government conspiracy:

1.  Do you still feel satisfied with the official investigation? 

2.  If there was no wrong doing on the part of the government, what have they got to hide? What have you got to lose from a more thorough investigation?  We would all like to put the issue to rest, wouldn't we? 

Why not be exhaustive, not only in exposing the facts of the attack, but also to scrutinize the manner in which the original investigation was conducted? 

Or you can go back to calling each other retards, sheep, or tin-foil hat-wearers....

I'd like to say I look forward to a comprehensive engineering report to settle the issue (due to the massive implication of skyscrapers falling due to nothing more than fire), but the simple fact is, all the evidence needed for such a report was destroyed with remarkable expedience.  Thanks to that, we can NEVER have such a report. 

I'm sure some of you out there might even think that to be a good thing. 

I'm sure the terrorists did, who ever they might be.


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Edited by Minstrel (06/22/08 12:12 AM)

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Offlinedtugg
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Minstrel]
    #8549395 - 06/22/08 01:15 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

^Skyscapers falling do to nothing but fires? Did you forget about the huge fricking jets that flew into them.

As for the comprehensive engineering report that you are refering to, The National Institute for Technology and Standards (NITS) already did one. It is undoubtable the largest study of its kind ever done and definitely answers any questions about why the buildings collapsed the way they did. you can find it at http://wtc.nist.gov/. Something tells me that you've never read, or probably even heard about this report.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: Minstrel]
    #8549890 - 06/22/08 05:39 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
This thread (though not unexpectedly) has gotten a little less civil than it aught to be.
So, to all of you who explicitly deny a government conspiracy:

1.  Do you still feel satisfied with the official investigation? 

2.  If there was no wrong doing on the part of the government, what have they got to hide? What have you got to lose from a more thorough investigation?  We would all like to put the issue to rest, wouldn't we? 

Why not be exhaustive, not only in exposing the facts of the attack, but also to scrutinize the manner in which the original investigation was conducted? 

Or you can go back to calling each other retards, sheep, or tin-foil hat-wearers....

I'd like to say I look forward to a comprehensive engineering report to settle the issue (due to the massive implication of skyscrapers falling due to nothing more than fire), but the simple fact is, all the evidence needed for such a report was destroyed with remarkable expedience.  Thanks to that, we can NEVER have such a report. 

I'm sure some of you out there might even think that to be a good thing. 


I'm sure the terrorists did, who ever they might be.




I don't need to "deny there was a conspiracy" to conclude there is no evidence that tends to show this is likely- the truthers have the burden of proof in this racket.

1.  No.  I don't see why video tapes are being held, and I think this is ridiculous.  Any other documents not released are aslo suspect without bonafide and substantial security implications.

2.  They have much to loose, including more criticism of their acts and omissions both before and aftor the event.  Doesn't matter though, cuz I'm not for government hiding things as in the above and so I don't defend actions they take to obfuscate the issue or hide evidence.  My understanding is that the engineering reports are still being worked on- correct me if I'm wrong.

I woudln't oppose, and I'd favor, an open forum for the government to answer the critics, such as a period during which letters may be posted that the government will respond to- if the points aren't covered completely in prior official explanations, in which case they can be cross referenced.

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Japanese Lawmaker takes 9/11 doubts global [Re: dtugg]
    #8550702 - 06/22/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dtugg said:
^Skyscapers falling do to nothing but fires? Did you forget about the huge fricking jets that flew into them.

As for the comprehensive engineering report that you are refering to, The National Institute for Technology and Standards (NITS) already did one. It is undoubtable the largest study of its kind ever done and definitely answers any questions about why the buildings collapsed the way they did. you can find it at http://wtc.nist.gov/. Something tells me that you've never read, or probably even heard about this report.




I find it kinda funny that you don't even have their name right:  Its NIST, not NITS.
I've read sections of it.  It is NOT an engineering report; it's fantasy.  It's full of qualitative emotional garbage and conclusions which they themselves have not experimentally verified.

Concerning your 'huge fricking jets', which crashed into 2 buildings, and brought down 3:  They themselves admit that the primary cause of collapse of both WTC towers and WTC 7 was the resulting fire. 

WTC 7 is of particular interest, since the implication of it's collapse is that if a small fire breaks out in my downtown, the building might very well come down!  When a plane crashes because of some mechanical failure, they ground the whole line until the find the problem and fix it.  Thousands of buildings around the world are at risk from this kind of collapse!  If it was indeed fire which did that, all these buildings are unsafe.

The NIST report pre-supposes that the planes & fire brought down the buildings.  They didn't look for evidence of explosives; you won't find what you are not looking for.  In any building fire, tests are done for explosives or flammables by investigators to confirm/rule out arson.  This was never done for 9-11.

Neither the conspiracy-meat, or the obedient-meat have their positions on solid evidence.

I'm still waiting for a report which doesn't require a violation the 2nd law of thermodynamics in their model of heating.


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Edited by Minstrel (06/22/08 01:56 PM)

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