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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Global Warming. [Re: Seuss]
    #8537832 - 06/18/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

The politics panel blah blah blah blah ...

Exactly the problem I was trying to illustrate with my previous post.

Quote:

The global warming issue has been hijacked by politics.  It is no longer a scientific debate, but a political one, much the same way that drug addiction is no longer a medical issue, but a political/criminal issue instead.




The fact that this post is in political discussion rather than science & tech yet again illustrates my point.  The "global warming" science is no more legitimate than the "war on drugs" science.  Politics, not science, drives both.




You're right...global warming is no longer a scientific debate. Nope, no more scientific research and analysis or anything like that. :smirk:. I do see what you are getting at, and it's definitely true that there are a lot of politics involved in the climate change discussion, however, that does not by any means invalidate the science that we're talking about here. It means that we need to exercise our critical capacities, not blindly dismiss data and conclusions on the basis that the topic at hand involves politics.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Global Warming. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8537882 - 06/18/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

OMG you jumped off the bandwagon! :thumbup:



Good Job!


Now are you going to continue to support the Democratic Party who are always pushing to create Tax Increases with this global warming hysteria.....


The Climate Tax Bill was almost the largest tax increase in American history


"The Climate Tax Bill would not have resulted in any “action” whatsoever. The bill, often touted as an "insurance policy" against global warming, would instead have been all economic pain for no climate gain. "

"Just a few days after the embarrassing defeat of the Climate Bill, the Democrats were at it again. As the price of gas at the pump continued to climb, Democrats were proposing yet another energy tax as part of their “solution” to our energy challenges.  The Democrats’ “no” energy bill would increase taxes by $17 billion for America’s oil and gas producers and increase government bureaucracy.  Their bill does nothing to increase access to America’s extensive oil and natural gas reserves, does nothing for the promotion of nuclear energy, does nothing to increase refinery capacity, does nothing for electricity generation or transmission, and does nothing for the utilization of clean coal. They are attempting to ignore the basic concepts of supply and demand."

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Facts&ContentRecord_id=91bcfe7a-802a-23ad-409f-f852f0c562e9


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Global Warming. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8538189 - 06/18/08 07:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Its amazing how many people around the world were suckered by this hoax.  If you want to know what it might be like in couple years go to http://www.youtube.com and use the keywords Soylent Green and North Korea and look at those videos.

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OfflineScavengerType
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Global Warming. [Re: Luddite]
    #8538344 - 06/18/08 07:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

isn't it funny how right wing nuts who don't believe in climate change dodge arguments and bitch about taxes nonstop so as to avoid considering the fact that they have no point.

First off I don't pretend to know what's really in this energy bill (unlike you guys) but energy tax reforms have worked successfully in Europe and have transformed some of their countries into environmental technology leaders. But I guess you Americans scoff at economic success anyway.

More to the point madtown, what has convinced you there is no evidince to support anthropogenic climate change? Are you just realizing that Climate Change denial is too difficult to defend so your going for the sleeker new "It's not us though" aproach.

We know there is a shit load of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere because of human intervention and we know that these gasses cause warming by deflecting infaread radiation in all directions and keeping it from leaving the earth. How is this not translating to anthropogenic climate change to you?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
Comrade
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Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
. [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8538620 - 06/18/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:10 AM)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 9 days, 18 hours
Re: Global Warming. [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8538715 - 06/18/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
More to the point madtown, what has convinced you there is no evidince to support anthropogenic climate change? Are you just realizing that Climate Change denial is too difficult to defend so your going for the sleeker new "It's not us though" aproach.

We know there is a shit load of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere because of human intervention and we know that these gasses cause warming by deflecting infaread radiation in all directions and keeping it from leaving the earth. How is this not translating to anthropogenic climate change to you?




You have no idea what you're talking about vis a vis my views.  I'm not right-wing and I've never been a denier of climate change.  Anyone here could tell you that from reading my posts in the past.

Until about a year ago, I was a vocal supporter of greenhouse gas control and an avid believer in man-made global warming.

However, unlike many, I am able to change my views and don't have a dogmatic attachment to any one particular argument. 

To me, the evidence doesn't seem that strong.  As I've said five times in this thread alone, there have been billions upon billions of years of climate change on Earth, with literally thousands of shifts between hot and cold.  THOUSANDS, over BILLIONS of YEARS.

Not little half a degree Fahrenheit rise, but swings of hundreds of degrees, with no input from man whatsoever.

But now, the temperature rises less than a degree and it MUST BE BECAUSE OF PEOPLE?  Why do you expect to live on the Earth in the only time in the planets history that the temperature remains static?  Do you consider yourself that important?

I'm not saying pollution is great.  I live in the city, I hate smog.  But is it not true that the amount of water vapor, also a potent greenhouse gas, that enters the atmosphere every day from natural process' is greater than that put out my man?  I'm a geologist, and the amounts of nasty chemicals and steam put out by any volcanic eruption is staggering.  And volcanoes erupt every single day.

Again, I'm not claiming the Earth is not warming.  It appears to me that it is.  But I firmly believe this to be part of a natural cycle, as has ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE.  Always.  100% of the time.

Except for now?

Pretty big exception.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
Comrade
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Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8539295 - 06/19/08 12:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

.


--------------------
.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:10 AM)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
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Re: Global Warming. [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8539764 - 06/19/08 06:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm on my way to work and don't have time to make a lengthy response.

But volcanic eruptions cooling the earth.

That is a new one by me.

And Milankovich Cycles are the only way the Earth has warmed in the past?

That is a ridiculous oversimplification.  The fact is, the reasons the Earth has warmed or cooled in the past are nowhere near known well.  My professor, Dr. Margaret Frasier does quite a bit of work in this subject and would tell you the exact same thing.  To pretend like it is a cut-and-dry simplicity of a regular cycle with no other inputs is crazy.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: Global Warming. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8540188 - 06/19/08 09:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> The fact is, the reasons the Earth has warmed or cooled in the past are nowhere near known well.

Completely agree with you on this!


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Global Warming. [Re: Seuss]
    #8540229 - 06/19/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The fact is, the reasons the Earth has warmed or cooled in the past are nowhere near known well.






My gut feeling is that it has something to do with the SUN.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Global Warming. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8540331 - 06/19/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Last chance, folks. Next post in this thread dealing with the science of climate change as opposed to public policy on climate change sends this thread to Science and Technology.



Phred


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
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Re: Global Warming. [Re: dblaney]
    #8540351 - 06/19/08 10:41 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
But saying that is causing any warming we have now, WITH NO REGARD for any other natural process' which, as I've stated, have been occurring for billions of years w/out human intervention is ignorant.

"Other natural processes." Okay, these could include solar forcing, the release of carbon and methane from arctic tundra & wetlands, massive volcanic eruptions, changes in the earth's orbit or orientation towards the sun, and explosions from large meteors hitting the earth. (am i forgetting anything?)

Solar forcing:
Quote:

A few papers suggest that the Sun's contribution may have been underestimated. Two researchers at Duke University, Bruce West and Nicola Scafetta, have estimated that the Sun may have contributed about 45–50% of the increase in the average global surface temperature over the period 1900–2000, and about 25–35% between 1980 and 2000. A paper by Peter Stott and other researchers suggests that climate models overestimate the relative effect of greenhouse gases compared to solar forcing; they also suggest that the cooling effects of volcanic dust and sulfate aerosols have been underestimated. They nevertheless conclude that even with an enhanced climate sensitivity to solar forcing, most of the warming since the mid-20th century is likely attributable to the increases in greenhouse gases.




The release of carbon and methane from permafrost sinks:
This definitely adds to the global climate change. However, these compounds have been locked away in the permafrost for over 10,000 years. They don't just get spontaneously released. There are two things that are releasing them: human development in regions near the permafrost, and the increase in global temperature from post-industrial revolution human greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, although this is a 'natural' source, it is being added to the atmosphere because of human activity.

Massive volcanic eruptions:
Check it out: http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/largeeruptions.cfm. There does not seem to have been any drastic increase in volcanic eruptions in millenia.

Changes in earth's orbit (orbital forcing) or orientation to sun:
The data from orbital forcing suggest that the earth should in fact be in a cooling cycle right now.

Check out Crowley's page here: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/pubs/crowley.html, for a fairly comprehensive look at natural causes of climate change.




Could you explain this better? I am curious to know why our temperature is not 99.999% determined by the sun (I'm assuming there's a small amount of heat produced by the fissile decomposition of various things in the earth's core)

I used to joke about polititans would tax the very air we could breathe if they could get away with it.

http://www.carbontax.org/

And now, Joseph Gobbels would be proud.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2007/121407_carbon_tax.htm

Quote:

The UN has officially announced what the fearmongering about man-made global warming has been designed to justify all along - a global carbon tax which will do nothing to reduce carbon emissions but everything to feed the trough of world government. Over one hundred prominent scientists signed a letter dismissing the move as a futile bureaucratic scheme which will diminish prosperity and increase human suffering.

Following a discussion entitled “A Global CO2 Tax," a UN panel yesterday urged the adoption of “a global burden sharing system, fair, with solidarity, and legally binding to all nations,” to impose a tax on plant food (CO2).

Othmar Schwank, one of the participants, said that the U.S. and other wealthy nations need to “contribute significantly more to this global fund." He also added, “It is very essential to tax coal.”

The bounty from this $40 billion dollars a year windfall will go straight into the coffers of a UN controlled "Multilateral Adaptation Fund".

(Article continues below)

What we see unfolding in Bali is one of the major final stepping stones on the road to a complete globalist stranglehold on reducing the living standards of everyone in the industrialized world, and a scheme to prevent the third world from ever lifting itself out of poverty.

Seven years ago former French President Jacques Chirac said the UN’s Kyoto Protocol represented "the first component of an authentic global governance." The imminent agreement arising out of the Bali summit will be one of the final nails in the coffin aimed at decimating the middle class and the right of free people to strive for prosperity and happiness without laboring under suffocating serfdom imposed by unelected elitists.

As MIT climate scientist Dr. Richard Lindzen warned earlier this year, "Controlling carbon is a bureaucrat's dream. If you control carbon, you control life."

Lindzen is one of over 100 prominent scientists who have signed a letter slamming the UN move as a futile bureaucratic scheme, pointing out the results of a recent study in the International Journal of Climatology which concludes that climate change over the past thirty years is largely a result of solar activity and that attempts to reduce carbon dioxide emissions are irrelevant.

In comparison, half that number - just 52 scientists - participated in the IPCC Summary for Policymakers meeting in April 2007.

In the letter addressed to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, the scientists state, “Attempts to prevent global climate change from occurring are ultimately futile, and constitute a tragic misallocation of resources that would be better spent on humanity's real and pressing problems.”

"It is not possible to stop climate change, a natural phenomenon that has affected humanity through the ages. Geological, archaeological, oral and written histories all attest to the dramatic challenges posed to past societies from unanticipated changes in temperature, precipitation, winds and other climatic variables. We therefore need to equip nations to become resilient to the full range of these natural phenomena by promoting economic growth and wealth generation."

"The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has issued increasingly alarming conclusions about the climatic influences of human-produced carbon dioxide (CO2), a non-polluting gas that is essential to plant photosynthesis. While we understand the evidence that has led them to view CO2 emissions as harmful, the IPCC's conclusions are quite inadequate as justification for implementing policies that will markedly diminish future prosperity. In particular, it is not established that it is possible to significantly alter global climate through cuts in human greenhouse gas emissions. On top of which, because attempts to cut emissions will slow development, the current UN approach of CO2 reduction is likely to increase human suffering from future climate change rather than to decrease it."

The letter goes into detail about several conclusions of the IPCC report that are completely contradicted by recent major scientific studies.

Read the full letter here.

Listed below are the names and credentials of the 100 scientists who signed the letter, again dispelling the myth that the man-made explanation behind global warming is an overwhelming"consensus" view.

Ian D. Clark, PhD, Professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa

Richard S. Courtney, PhD, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.

Willem de Lange, PhD, Dept. of Earth and Ocean Sciences, School of Science and Engineering, Waikato University, New Zealand

David Deming, PhD (Geophysics), Associate Professor, College of Arts and Sciences, University of Oklahoma

Freeman J. Dyson, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J.

Don J. Easterbrook, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Geology, Western Washington University

Lance Endersbee, Emeritus Professor, former dean of Engineering and Pro-Vice Chancellor of Monasy University, Australia

Hans Erren, Doctorandus, geophysicist and climate specialist, Sittard, The Netherlands

Robert H. Essenhigh, PhD, E.G. Bailey Professor of Energy Conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University

Christopher Essex, PhD, Professor of Applied Mathematics and Associate Director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario

David Evans, PhD, mathematician, carbon accountant, computer and electrical engineer and head of 'Science Speak,' Australia

William Evans, PhD, editor, American Midland Naturalist; Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Notre Dame

Stewart Franks, PhD, Professor, Hydroclimatologist, University of Newcastle, Australia

R. W. Gauldie, PhD, Research Professor, Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, School of Ocean Earth Sciences and Technology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa

Lee C. Gerhard, PhD, Senior Scientist Emeritus, University of Kansas; former director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey

Gerhard Gerlich, Professor for Mathematical and Theoretical Physics, Institut für Mathematische Physik der TU Braunschweig, Germany

Albrecht Glatzle, PhD, sc.agr., Agro-Biologist and Gerente ejecutivo, INTTAS, Paraguay

Fred Goldberg, PhD, Adjunct Professor, Royal Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering, Stockholm, Sweden

Vincent Gray, PhD, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001, Wellington, New Zealand

William M. Gray, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University and Head of the Tropical Meteorology Project

Howard Hayden, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut

Louis Hissink MSc, M.A.I.G., editor, AIG News, and consulting geologist, Perth, Western Australia

Craig D. Idso, PhD, Chairman, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Arizona

Sherwood B. Idso, PhD, President, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, AZ, USA

Andrei Illarionov, PhD, Senior Fellow, Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity; founder and director of the Institute of Economic Analysis

Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman - Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland

Jon Jenkins, PhD, MD, computer modelling - virology, NSW, Australia

Wibjorn Karlen, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden

Olavi Kärner, Ph.D., Research Associate, Dept. of Atmospheric Physics, Institute of Astrophysics and Atmospheric Physics, Toravere, Estonia

Joel M. Kauffman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia

David Kear, PhD, FRSNZ, CMG, geologist, former Director-General of NZ Dept. of Scientific & Industrial Research, New Zealand

Madhav Khandekar, PhD, former research scientist, Environment Canada; editor, Climate Research (2003-05); editorial board member, Natural Hazards; IPCC expert reviewer 2007

William Kininmonth M.Sc., M.Admin., former head of Australia's National Climate Centre and a consultant to the World Meteorological organization's Commission for Climatology

Jan J.H. Kop, MSc Ceng FICE (Civil Engineer Fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers), Emeritus Prof. of Public Health Engineering, Technical University Delft, The Netherlands

Prof. R.W.J. Kouffeld, Emeritus Professor, Energy Conversion, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands

Salomon Kroonenberg, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Geotechnology, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands

Hans H.J. Labohm, PhD, economist, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations), The Netherlands

The Rt. Hon. Lord Lawson of Blaby, economist; Chairman of the Central Europe Trust; former Chancellor of the Exchequer, U.K.

Douglas Leahey, PhD, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary

David R. Legates, PhD, Director, Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware

Marcel Leroux, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS

Bryan Leyland, International Climate Science Coalition, consultant and power engineer, Auckland, New Zealand

William Lindqvist, PhD, independent consulting geologist, Calif.

Richard S. Lindzen, PhD, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

A.J. Tom van Loon, PhD, Professor of Geology (Quaternary Geology), Adam Mickiewicz University, Poznan, Poland; former President of the European Association of Science Editors

Anthony R. Lupo, PhD, Associate Professor of Atmospheric Science, Dept. of Soil, Environmental, and Atmospheric Science, University of Missouri-Columbia

Richard Mackey, PhD, Statistician, Australia

Horst Malberg, PhD, Professor for Meteorology and Climatology, Institut für Meteorologie, Berlin, Germany

John Maunder, PhD, Climatologist, former President of the Commission for Climatology of the World Meteorological Organization (89-97), New Zealand

Alister McFarquhar, PhD, international economy, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K.

Ross McKitrick, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph

John McLean, PhD, climate data analyst, computer scientist, Australia

Owen McShane, PhD, economist, head of the International Climate Science Coalition; Director, Centre for Resource Management Studies, New Zealand

Fred Michel, PhD, Director, Institute of Environmental Sciences and Associate Professor of Earth Sciences, Carleton University

Frank Milne, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Economics, Queen's University

Asmunn Moene, PhD, former head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway

Alan Moran, PhD, Energy Economist, Director of the IPA's Deregulation Unit, Australia

Nils-Axel Morner, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University, Sweden

Lubos Motl, PhD, Physicist, former Harvard string theorist, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic

John Nicol, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Physics, James Cook University, Australia

David Nowell, M.Sc., Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, former chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa

James J. O'Brien, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Meteorology and Oceanography, Florida State University

Cliff Ollier, PhD, Professor Emeritus (Geology), Research Fellow, University of Western Australia

Garth W. Paltridge, PhD, atmospheric physicist, Emeritus Professor and former Director of the Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Australia

R. Timothy Patterson, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University

Al Pekarek, PhD, Associate Professor of Geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, Minnesota

Ian Plimer, PhD, Professor of Geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia

Brian Pratt, PhD, Professor of Geology, Sedimentology, University of Saskatchewan

Harry N.A. Priem, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Planetary Geology and Isotope Geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences

Alex Robson, PhD, Economics, Australian National University Colonel F.P.M. Rombouts, Branch Chief - Safety, Quality and Environment, Royal Netherland Air Force

R.G. Roper, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Georgia Institute of Technology

Arthur Rorsch, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Molecular Genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands

Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, B.C.

Tom V. Segalstad, PhD, (Geology/Geochemistry), Head of the Geological Museum and Associate Professor of Resource and Environmental Geology, University of Oslo, Norway

Gary D. Sharp, PhD, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, CA

S. Fred Singer, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia and former director Weather Satellite Service

L. Graham Smith, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario

Roy W. Spencer, PhD, climatologist, Principal Research Scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville

Peter Stilbs, TeknD, Professor of Physical Chemistry, Research Leader, School of Chemical Science and Engineering, KTH (Royal Institute of Technology), Stockholm, Sweden

Hendrik Tennekes, PhD, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute

Dick Thoenes, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemical Engineering, Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

Brian G Valentine, PhD, PE (Chem.), Technology Manager - Industrial Energy Efficiency, Adjunct Associate Professor of Engineering Science, University of Maryland at College Park; Dept of Energy, Washington, DC

Gerrit J. van der Lingen, PhD, geologist and paleoclimatologist, climate change consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand

Len Walker, PhD, Power Engineering, Australia

Edward J. Wegman, PhD, Department of Computational and Data Sciences, George Mason University, Virginia

Stephan Wilksch, PhD, Professor for Innovation and Technology Management, Production Management and Logistics, University of Technolgy and Economics Berlin, Germany

Boris Winterhalter, PhD, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland

David E. Wojick, PhD, P.Eng., energy consultant, Virginia

Raphael Wust, PhD, Lecturer, Marine Geology/Sedimentology, James Cook University, Australia

A. Zichichi, PhD, President of the World Federation of Scientists, Geneva, Switzerland; Emeritus Professor of Advanced Physics, University of Bologna, Italy





You know what I find annoying about this? We've already got the technology and infastructure in place that we could move from oil to water, or electricity through so many ways. If people want, you just need to do a little research, procure some resources and you can make your own power. You can be independant if you want it. This is not about saving the planet, this is about taxing people even more and making a world government via stealth. And if a world government (like the European Union was for decades, it was brought in by stealth, and has been gradually taking control of all it's subject nations laws) is brought in by stealth, then it is not by the people, for the people.

Tackling pollution is something I am very keen on, and I am pleased when I see innovations in dealing with actual pollutants like mercury, spent uranium, fluoride, and nitrate runoff. CO2 is not a pollutant. Carbon Dixoide, Oxygen, Water and Sunlight are the four basic elements of life on this planet.

I love the spin on this article here:

Quote:

Rising carbon dioxide levels will increase river levels in the future, according to a team of scientists from the Met Office Hadley Centre, the University of Exeter and the Centre for Ecology & Hydrology.

The findings, published on 30 August 2007 in the journal Nature, suggest that increasing carbon dioxide will cause plants to extract less water from the soil, leaving more water to drain into rivers which will add to the river flow increases already expected due to climate change.




Another way of saying this is: Plants need less irrigation with higher CO2 levels, increasing yeilds in low water areas.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8540359 - 06/19/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:10 AM)

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8540387 - 06/19/08 10:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:10 AM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Global Warming. (moved) [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8540461 - 06/19/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This thread was moved from Political Discussion.

Reason:
And away we go.

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Global Warming. (moved) [Re: Phred]
    #8540580 - 06/19/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

When amoral, secretive societies want to fund a world government via carbon tax, the issue is no longer scientific, it's political.

But nevermind someone's inabillity to see that. It doesn't matter what forum it's disscussed in.

And the talk is not important either. I didn't need to see the science (but it helped) to tell that this was a usurpation of the enviromental protection movement. I just read what the council on foriegn relations said about it.

Now, the reason question people should ask is that our unelected leaders world wide have decided to tax us for things that produce CO2, which is hard to circumvent, but not impossible. The question people should be asking is how to make this tax fall flat on it's face and be unenforceable.

People can do small scale power production, get a steam turbine and burn wood, or if you're feeling up to it, make a water cracker to drive a steam turbine. Can't put a tax on a system that has water as the end result, until they decide to tax water as well, as water vapour is the most significant greenhouse gas.


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Edited by Visionary Tools (06/19/08 12:08 PM)

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8540594 - 06/19/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:10 AM)

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Global Warming. (moved) [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8540873 - 06/19/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Man made global warming is a hoax.

http://www.geocities.com/sciliterature/Climate.htm

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Global Warming. (moved) [Re: Luddite]
    #8540896 - 06/19/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

August 31, 2007

Um... no: "Global warming – who pays and when?" - "The economics of climate change is driving what kind of pact nations may be willing to make." (The Christian Science Monitor)

The only real question is which leader will have the courage and honesty to stand against the stampeding herd and admit we don't have a known climate catastrophe looming, don't really know what the global temperature is, what it should be or how to knowingly and predictably adjust it even if we decided good reason existed to attempt to do so?

So, who will put their hand up? Who will lead mankind away from the abyss?

"George Monbiot: zero emissions by 2030" - "Many people in the global warming movement have lost their minds. For example, we have seen that Al Gore and James Hansen predict 82-feet rise in the sea level. There's a huge competition between these folks.

George Monbiot wants to promote his new book so he doesn't want to stay behind. Instead, he wants to remain the number 1 "moonbat" as people outside his movement call him. What can he do to achieve this non-trivial goal and beat his tough competition?" (The Reference Frame)

"Deferred Forecasts Of Global Warming - An Example Of The Misuse of Science" - "A blatant example of masking an untested hypothesis as a scientific paper has been published in Science. The paper is “Improved Surface Temperature Prediction for the Coming Decade from a Global Climate Model” Doug M. Smith, Stephen Cusack, Andrew W. Colman, Chris K. Folland, Glen R. Harris, and James M. Murphy (10 August 2007) Science 317 (5839), 796. [DOI: 10.1126/science.1139540]." (Climate Science)

http://www.junkscience.com/aug07.html

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Global Warming. (moved) [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8541262 - 06/19/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The IPCC is probably the most visible (and rather obvious) propaganda outlet of this generation.  Amongst all the fraudulent hockey-stick graphs, and irrational pre-supposition that CO2 actually DRIVES climate (heat flux), you find cute little appeals to emotion.  A human-denigrating one, specifically.  They force us to look upon ourselves as the consuming meat we are, and the damage brought about by such, and they exploit it. And why not?  The same ones pimping the whole idea (fancy-pants artsies or politicians) MAKE A LIVING exciting the emotions of the masses.  OH NOES!!!  All those poor polar bears and our EVUL SUVs and EVUL AMERIKA SHEEPLES. 

Bring us ever closer to a scientific dictatorship.  The ever present Human Will to Order is at work here.  Sustainability will need to be forced upon us.

I don't buy the climate change crisis garbage.  The climate has always been changing.  There have been periods in earth's history when [CO2] was greater.  Ice shelfs breaking and floating away could very well be signs of ice growth (mass increases, and surface supporting area remains mostly constant, hence, greater stress, hence breakage).  All climate and weather has ONE driving force, which is the sun.  Without heat flux, there can be no convection, so no winds, no ocean currents. 

[For some reason, the image won't show up, so here's the link.]

To all you CO2 fear-mongers out there, have you bothered to look at the spectral absorption of CO2 compared to H2O?  Water, specifically it's vapor-liquid equilibrium, forms the primary basis for our atmospheric conditions.  There is roughly 8x10^22 moles of water on earth.  There is roughly 6.8x10^16 moles of carbon dioxide.  That's a difference of 6 orders of magnitude

See those carbon dioxide bands at about 2 um?  That's not thermal radiation, thats just near IR, red-shifted out of visible.  Water clearly dwarfs CO2 in absorption.  all across the spectrum.

Well, that's my big bad science.  Take note it's not time-dependent either.  Fuckin' here, and now.  CO2 has fuck-all to do with climate.

Even if you were to increase the concentration of CO2 tenfold, it's still insignificant in our little cuvette that is Earth, in that massive spectrometer that is the solar system.

Also, it's nice to see Fred using his dictatorial powers once again.  At first I was cross, as I consider the science inseparable from the politics: the issue of Climate Change is an exciting study in the effectiveness of propaganda. However, moving it to a new audience outside of the political forum opens it up to a new audience with new ideas, many of which are not actually their own, but ones which came from a screen.  The location of the thread won't take away the political excitement.


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Edited by Minstrel (06/19/08 04:21 PM)

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