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OfflineSneezingPenis
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the absurdity of child pornography laws.
    #8535313 - 06/17/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)



what makes me laugh is that this picture raises no suspicions.. why?

do we believe that there is no one sick enough out there to be sexually aroused by this? im willing to bet someone out there is.
so once they hit 3 years old? no more naked pictures? what is the age?
3-18 and you cant take any naked pictures.
you cant even draw pictures that depict naked children.

im not defending the pederast, but how retarded is it?
if we are going to make and enforce these fucked up rules, then why not just go all the way to "protect the children".
3-18, you cant wear revealing clothing, or do anything to your appearance which may be construed as sexually appealing.
how much sense would that make?

this is how america deals with problems... we only look at it head on.
its like you walk home on a gravel road from school every day and bullys keep throwing rocks at you, so you start wearing thicker clothes which make you hot and bringing garbage can lids rather than just find another route home that isnt lined with rocks.

I cant imagine that many children are molested by complete strangers... so what are we trying to prevent?

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8535334 - 06/17/08 09:42 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:

3-18 and you cant take any naked pictures.
you cant even draw pictures that depict naked children.




I don't believe either of these statements are true.

However, I think it is fairly reasonable for parents to receive assistance from the law in preventing their children from being sexually targeted by adults. Can you think of a simpler, more effective alternative to laws against statutory rape and child pornography?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (06/17/08 09:42 PM)

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8535366 - 06/17/08 09:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

what percentage of child molestations occur by complete strangers?
I would venture to guess that more than 90% of it occurs from relatives or babysitters.

how is your child affected by someone thousands of miles away beating off to pictures of naked 8 year old?

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8535400 - 06/17/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
what percentage of child molestations occur by complete strangers?
I would venture to guess that more than 90% of it occurs from relatives or babysitters.




I don't know any actual statistics on the matter, but it seems a superficial distinction, when both of these scenarios are well outside what most parents are comfortable with for their children.

Quote:

how is your child affected by someone thousands of miles away beating off to pictures of naked 8 year old?




More importantly: how is your child not affected by having naked pictures taken of him or her?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8535433 - 06/17/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

well, tomorrow I will bring you some statistics.

im sure I can find some stories of divorced parents using harmless pictures that their spouses took as proof of child abuse.
or percentages of molestations within the family.

A picture is merely a picture. what they are trying to do is outlaw a thought, an idea, a fantasy. which is impossible.

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8535836 - 06/18/08 12:34 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

A picture is merely a picture. what they are trying to do is outlaw a thought, an idea, a fantasy. which is impossible.




I think in many cases it is the fact that these people are often involved in a ring of child pornography that would not exist without the demand of these 'harmless guys beating off thousands of miles away'. You hear about these groups being busted all the time on the evening news. Without the demand, a large percentage of victims would go unharmed.

I don't know if I agree with imprisoning a guy who can't resist a picture of a scantily clad, bruised child, but I would definitely advocate for some serious therapy action. If it were his own kid, I would imagine that the parent require a separation from the child until he was deemed fit to continue caring for him or her. More precautions, like bi-weekly check-ups and advice from schoolteachers, etc, would also be helpful. Jacking it to kiddie porn is definitely not healthy in any respect, and it would have to be corrected by any means necessary IMO.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Cameron]
    #8536397 - 06/18/08 07:41 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cameron said:
Quote:

A picture is merely a picture. what they are trying to do is outlaw a thought, an idea, a fantasy. which is impossible.




I think in many cases it is the fact that these people are often involved in a ring of child pornography that would not exist without the demand of these 'harmless guys beating off thousands of miles away'. You hear about these groups being busted all the time on the evening news. Without the demand, a large percentage of victims would go unharmed.

I don't know if I agree with imprisoning a guy who can't resist a picture of a scantily clad, bruised child, but I would definitely advocate for some serious therapy action. If it were his own kid, I would imagine that the parent require a separation from the child until he was deemed fit to continue caring for him or her. More precautions, like bi-weekly check-ups and advice from schoolteachers, etc, would also be helpful. Jacking it to kiddie porn is definitely not healthy in any respect, and it would have to be corrected by any means necessary IMO.




Ive always assumed that the guys "beating off thousands of miles away" are the same ones producing child porn. I mean its not like there is some secret group of child porn merchants who aren't into this, but do it for the money.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8536847 - 06/18/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

How is this related to P&S?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Diploid]
    #8537027 - 06/18/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I think he was referring to the ridiculous backwards logic behind "child porn" laws.....thats kind of P&S.......ah maybe not.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8537032 - 06/18/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Ive always assumed that the guys "beating off thousands of miles away" are the same ones producing child porn. I mean its not like there is some secret group of child porn merchants who aren't into this, but do it for the money.




Well, most studies seem to credit child pornography as a 2-3 billion dollar a year industry. That's including prostitution, so websites probably account for less than a billion, but there is still a *lot* of money being made because there is still plenty of demand from the 35-49 year old crowd. And yeah, I would imagine they'd have to have to be secretive about their work, given the content.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Cameron]
    #8537099 - 06/18/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

there is still plenty of demand from the 35-49 year old crowd




Now that I am 50, I only subscribe to MILF websites.


--------------------

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8537603 - 06/18/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Adults were the offender in 60% of the sexual assaults of youth under age 12. Rarely were the offenders of young victims strangers. Strangers were the offender in just 3% of sexual assaults against victims under age 6 and 5% of the sexual assault of victimizations of youth ages 6 through 11.
-Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement,
7/00, NCJ 182990, U.S. Department of Jus
Acquaintance perpetrators are the most common abusers, constituting approximately 70-90% of all reported perpetrators.
-Finkelhor, D. 1994.

• 89% of child sexual assault cases involve persons known to the child, such as a caretaker or family acquaintance.
-Diana Russell Survey, 1978

• 29% of child sexual abuse offenders are relatives, 60% are acquaintances, and only 11% are strangers.
-Diana Russell, The Secret Trauma, NY:Basic Books, 1986.

• For the vast majority of child victimizers in State prison, the victim was someone they knew before the crime. 1/3 had committed their crime against their own child, about 1/2 had a relationship with the victim as a friend, acquaintance, or relative other than offspring, about 1 in 7 reported the victim to have been a stranger to them.
-BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991




my whole point and reason for posting this in this forum was to point out that we have created a greater "problem" by creating these laws.
we arent looking for a solution, but rather a half hearted deterrence.
we want to call someone that finds 17 year olds attractive a sexual deviant/mentaly ill... and taking the lead of psychiatry, we try to attack an idea or a way of life through absolutely retarded ways.

Quote:

More than 1/2 of all convicted sex offenders are sent back to prison within a year. Within 2 years, 77.9% are back.
-California Department of Corrections.




recidivism is rampant, which means that what we are doing really isnt working.
and I was correct about the images...

Quote:

Prohibits computer-generated child pornography when "(B) such visual depiction is a computer image or computer-generated image that is, or appears virtually indistinguishable from that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; (as amended by 1466A for Section 2256(8)(B) of title 18, United States Code).
Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in actions or situations that meet the Miller test of being obscene, OR are engaged in sex acts that are deemed to meet the same obscene condition. The law does not state that images of fictional beings who appear to be under 18 engaged in sexual acts that are not deemed to be obscene are rendered illegal in and of their own condition (illustration of sex of fictional minors).




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003

in fact, it goes as far to say that even if you have a picture or video of porn where the girls are actually 22, and you claim it to be child pornography, it is still the same thing as actually having child pronography.

do you see what I mean about trying to exterminate an idea? it is impossible. yet we believe that with enough force and punishment we can deter these people that we label as menatlly ill.
so what we have done is create a deep, black market. I wouldnt be surprised to find couples that secretly have children only to make them into child porn "stars". we have created a much pricier demand for the product.

this is what happens when you let psychiatrists dictate what is normal and sane, and what isnt. im not saying that pedophilia is right or wrong here, but we try to look at everything from a black and white/sane or insane POV.
"oh this 13 year old was molested, what a horrifying experience for her"... maybe it was, but maybe it wasnt. we jump to the conclusion that there was no possible good that came from that. a life experience? maybe they enjoyed it? are we compounding the guilt by reacting so violently to it?


We are really only one burka away from being the most prude nation in the world. we are trying to pound out natural animalistic behaviour with guilt and consequences.
i have been with a lot of women that have been molested and it seems to me that the thing that fucks with their head the most is the personal guilt or dirtiness that has been pounded into their thoughts.
Im sure I will get shit for this, but Im just relating my personal experiences: girls that got molested or raped as a child, end up really enjoying that sexual act.
if they got forcefully raped, they enjoy simulated rape/complete submission... if they got fondled by a dirty uncle, they like getting fondled.

I think it is because it was the first sexual encoutner they had, and it shaped their view of sex and how it should be. they stress and think about it constantly and go through a myriad of emotions about it.

when a child is molested, they are more confused than anything, because it is something that hasnt ever been a part of their world. just like when a toddler falls down, it looks around before making a reaction. if the parent is laughing, it laughs, if the parent has a shocked look on their face, it cries.
we are creating this problem. Im not saying we are the sole problem, but what we are doing is only compounding the issue, not solving anything.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8537616 - 06/18/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

You're still arguing about a legal issue, and not a philosophical topic.  Where is the philosophical question/topic?  An argument regarding the social issues created by laws belongs in the Political forum, IMO.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8537927 - 06/18/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I posted the PROTECT act because someone on here disputed the fact that you cannot even draw pictures depicting child pornography.

im not really wanting to discuss the laws, but they are a reflection of the moral majority agreements of our society and thusly reflect our thought process through the problem->solution->conclusion.

I dont think philosophy in the sense of the forum heading applies merely to "the art of asking why", but encompasses personal philosophy which can entail your approach/view of the world and society.
I think I have written enough threads regarding psychiatry to solidify a personal philosophy regarding american society and its reason for existing a certain way.
now maybe that is more in the sociology realm, but I like to treat P&S as the umbrella that covers the ambiguous/vague thread topics.

but back on topic, I guess a perfect summation of my point is:
we try to define what is deviance, punish that deviance, punish those that do anything more than merely think about that deviance, then wonder why there is no improvement.
we believe that because we all openly agree that 11 year olds shouldnt be molested, that it is obviously unnatural/deviant behaviour and should be punished with the same severity that we openly abhor it.
this is what americans do en masse when a taboo is crossed. we shake fists in the sky and tell people that they dont know what is best for them.... you were brainwashed! taken advantage of! one day you will understand!.
look at the polygamy "cult" that was in the news recently. the children werent harmed, but we raided their home, took them from a loving, safe environment and placed them in the care of pill pushing social workers.

this is how we solve problems: a gasp of shock and awe + self-righteous rhetoric + a dash of fascist strong arming/litigation.

is that philosophical enough for you?

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8538048 - 06/18/08 05:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

It still sounds like you are "critiquing legislation," which is the domain of the Political Discussion Forum.  :shrug:

Whatever, I'll leave it up to the mods to decide.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8538216 - 06/18/08 07:10 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8538278 - 06/18/08 07:33 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Whatever, I'll leave it up to the mods to decide.




Thanks mom. :grin:


--------------------

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OfflineBoots
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8538676 - 06/18/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Until I get interested in child pornography, I could give a fuck about the laws regarding it, lol.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Boots]
    #8539990 - 06/19/08 07:54 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Boots said:
Until I get interested in child pornography, I could give a fuck about the laws regarding it, lol.



And its that kind of philosophy on life that allows our freedoms to be slowly eroded away day by day.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8540069 - 06/19/08 08:28 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

a 20 yearold girl sent me this that i met thru a shroomery member

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="
&hl=en"></param><embed src="
&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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OfflineBoots
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8540165 - 06/19/08 09:00 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

Boots said:
Until I get interested in child pornography, I could give a fuck about the laws regarding it, lol.



And its that kind of philosophy on life that allows our freedoms to be slowly eroded away day by day.





Then, please, tell me why I should care? I don't personally know anybody that makes money off of child pornography, nor do I know any friends that look at it (that I know of), and third, I don't have any kids.

I'm not trying to argue, merely giving you the opportunity to tell me why I should care about something that isn't directly affecting me.

And if somebody posts that stupid "and nobody came for me" poem, I will shit a brick.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Boots]
    #8540208 - 06/19/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I dont support child pornographers, but they are people, and I do care how they get treated. (not to mention as previously pointed out the laws are a bit absurd) First you take someone like a child pornographer, or a "terrorist", and you bend there rights a bit until everyone gets used to it. Then maybe a rapist, then a murderer, and a thief, on down the line it goes.  Little by little our liberty slips away, and we watch it happen like a frog being slowly boiled alive.

You always hear people talking about the nazi germany, or soviet russia as if one day all of the laws just changed, and no one did any thing about it. Thats not how it happens though, we get our reactions, and common sense slowly twisted into a state of fear and dependence by a bombardment of emotional reactive words, and a pervasive expectation of helplessness. We have become so dependent on the government to feel "secure" from day to day that people are not only accepting that their rights are being taken away, they are begging for it.

Tyranny grows exponentially stronger with every liberty lost, and no one even seems to realize its happening.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8540767 - 06/19/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

This topic seems more like politics than P&S, but since the OP wants it here and it's borderline philosophy, I'll just let it run its course here.

Meanwhile, here's a scary (though admittedly politics-leaning) story on the news wires today that could happen to any one of us:

--

Man Cleared of Child Porn Charges After Hiring Computer Forensics Expert

By Michele Masterson, ChannelWeb
5:57 PM EDT Wed. Jun. 18, 2008

Here's a lesson for computer neophytes -- when you get accused of having child porn on your computer, subsequently get fired, lose your friends and family and face prosecution -- hire a computer forensic expert to clear your name -- assuming you're innocent of course.

That's what Michael Fiola, a former employee of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts did after getting fired for having child porn on his laptop. After a cursory examination, state investigators did in fact find child porn, which Fiola swore he didn't download and wouldn't even know how.

With charges that he downloaded images of child pornography onto his notebook filed against him, the 53-year-old Fiola became a pariah in his community, was shunned by friends and family and watched his wife develop a stress-related illness.

Fiola finally hired forensic computer expert Tami Loehrs of Tuscon, Ariz. to get to the bottom of the nightmare. The trouble began after Fiola, an investigator for the Department of Industrial Accidents, was issued a new laptop by the DIA in Nov. 2006 after his originally-issued laptop was stolen.

The replacement was a Dell (NSDQ:Dell) laptop computer equipped with a Dell broadband wireless card and Internet access through Verizon (NYSE:VZ) wireless, according to Loehrs' forensic report. The laptop was configured earlier that day.

But by March 2007, an investigator red flagged the computer after reviewing a Verizon wireless bill, noticing abnormally high data activity on Fiola's laptop -- usage was four-and-a-half times greater than any of the other investigators. Several days later, Fiola's laptop was taken and reviewed by investigators who found Website files and images of child pornography in the temporary Internet files folder. Subsequently, Fiola was fired and faced prosecution by the state.

In her examination, Loehrs noted that on certain dates, porn appeared "in the temporary Internet files with no apparent origin or user interaction preceding the pornographic activity. There were no Web site addresses typed into the browser, no searches conducted, no other pages accessed that led to the pornography appearing on the laptop. There are noSymantec (NSDQ: SYMC) logs for this date."

Loehrs said that although Symantec Corporate Edition was previously installed with the computer name BOLLE04 on September 20, 2006, it was reinstalled under the profile for "michaelf."

In addition, "Microsoft (NSDQ:MSFT)'s Systems Management server had previously been installed on September 20, 2006 with the computer name BOLLE04 and it appears that the new computer name BOLIN17 was not changed in the SMS software. According to the registry settings, the Windows Firewall was turned off."

The evidence showed that when Fiola used the laptop for the first time on November 20, 2006, he created several shortcuts to work related files such as mileage sheets, accessed several work-related Web sites, including Massachusetts Municipal Association and added these Web sites to his Internet favorites. Then on November 27, the first evidence of pornographic activity appeared on the computer.

"With no preceding activity by Fiola, a file titled smp[1].htm appears in the temporary Internet files folder," Loehrs wrote in her report. "The forensics software identifies this file type as unknown and the file is not viewable. However, the underlying HTML code includes several URLs in addition to several other unusual files. Because there was no user activity that prompted these files to appear such as an Internet search, access to other Web sites, checking e-mail or downloading files, this suspicious activity is indicative of a virus and/or Trojan that was likely resident on the Laptop when Fiola received," stated Loehrs.

Viruses and Trojans that were found on the laptop included Downloader, a Trojan that is a Windows Metafile image file; DriveCleaner, a rogue application distributed through aggressive pop ups; Feebs Family, malicious JavaScript that is usually embedded in a malicious Web site; and Trojan.ByteVerify.

But Loehrs said that "it is unknown what viruses and Trojans infected the computer during those four and a half months that were not recorded by Symantec or that did not leave a trace in the file system."

In conclusion of her report, Loehrs exonerated Fiola.

"In general, the pornography found in the temporary Internet files folder does not represent activity conducted by a user, specifically Michael Fiola," said Loehrs. "It is evident from reviewing the Symantec logs that the virus protection software was either not configured correctly or was not functioning properly. Log files for November and December are missing and entries for November are incomplete. Once they have been allowed to execute their code, they erase evidence of their tracks making it impossible to assess the damage. While it is impossible to say how badly the laptop was infected while it was in the possession of Michael Fiola, I can say with 100 percent certainty that the laptop was compromised by numerous viruses and Trojans and may have been hacked by outside sources."

According to her assistant, forensic analyst John Hansen, Fiola's computer was initially examined for "a grand total of three hours" by the DIA's IT department and never checked by forensic investigators. By contrast, Hansen said that he and Loehr examined the computer for over a month. Hansen also said that "no one was bothering to check" logs to see if the laptop was experiencing problems.

After Loehr's report was completed, charges were dropped aginst Fiola. "The overall forensics of the laptop suggest that it had been compromised by a virus," said Jake Wark, spokesman for Suffolk District Attorney Daniel Conley, according to the Boston Herald.

As for Fiola, he moved to Rhode Island and now works for another company. The DIA doesn't want him back and told the Boston Herald that it "stands by its decision" in terminating him. The Herald also quotes Fiola saying that he plans on suing the DIA for "destroying our lives."

"Imagine this scenario: your employer gives you a ticking time bomb full of child porn and then you get fired and then you get prosecuted as some kind of freak," Fiola's attorney Timothy Bradl, told the Herald. "Anybody who has a work laptop, this could happen to," he said.

ChannelWeb


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Diploid]
    #8540922 - 06/19/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Scary stuff.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8540971 - 06/19/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I honestly agree with the philosophy which outlaws child pornography and child molestation. I don't think it's right to make porn of kids or to grope them or fuck them. I'm sorry, I just don't know how you could think it's okay in the first place. You can call that closed-minded of me, but so be it. 90% of the country agrees with me, and that is why we have these laws.

If I had kids and found out a stranger (OR my brother OR my wife OR a family friend, it really doesn't matter, YA) was fooling around with my nine-year-old kid one way or another, you better fucking believe I'd want help from the authorities in making it stop. Bottom line.

You might as well rail against manslaughter laws because sometimes people are wrongfully accused of manslaughter (that happens too, you know). And manslaughter keeps happening, even though it's illegal. Better legalize manslaughter, because these laws obviously aren't working!


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Boots]
    #8540990 - 06/19/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And if somebody posts that stupid "and nobody came for me" poem, I will shit a brick.





When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8540994 - 06/19/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Im not saying that child porn should be acceptable, Im saying the way they treat people who are child pornographers, or child molesters is unacceptable to me.

Many peoples lives have been ruined over something as simple as having sex with a 16, or 17 year old.

Oh, and 90% of the country wouldn't agree with you. Maybe they would openly, but as scary as it may be pedophilia has become an almost common mental disorder.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8541108 - 06/19/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I honestly agree with the philosophy which outlaws child pornography and child molestation. I don't think it's right to make porn of kids or to grope them or fuck them. I'm sorry, I just don't know how you could think it's okay in the first place. You can call that closed-minded of me, but so be it. 90% of the country agrees with me, and that is why we have these laws.

If I had kids and found out a stranger (OR my brother OR my wife OR a family friend, it really doesn't matter, YA) was fooling around with my nine-year-old kid one way or another, you better fucking believe I'd want help from the authorities in making it stop. Bottom line.

You might as well rail against manslaughter laws because sometimes people are wrongfully accused of manslaughter (that happens too, you know). And manslaughter keeps happening, even though it's illegal. Better legalize manslaughter, because these laws obviously aren't working!




I think you completely missed my point.
I dont think there is anyone here that wouldnt string someone up by their balls if they foud out they were molesting your child. get help from the authorities?

my point is that molestation, rape, incest... all of that has been around before internet child pornography... before cameras... it has always been around.
we act like this is some new phenomena that was caused by people web surfing pictures and videos of questionably aged people.

and my grand point, is that this is how psychiatry works its "magic" on our society. Dyslexia, ADD, ADHD, homosexuality, anxiety disorders.... all "discovered" mental illnesses or functioning abberations that is a plague threatening the wellbeing of our children.

so what do we do with these people that get caught with pictures of naked 17 year olds on their computer? they go to jail, disowned by their family, lose their job... and when they get out of jail, they have to move away and then go door to door telling people that they are a sex offender that had child pornography on their computer.
now this person never had to molest a child... but merely was found to have thoughts which were taboo and incongruent with what our society finds acceptable.

now you can argue that he contributed indirectly to the deliquency of a minor by viewing that picture of a naked 17 year old girl...
but this very exact same thing could happen to someone with CGI kiddie porn, or even a picture of a naked 22 year old girl that happens to just look young with words or background designed to infer that she is a minor.
same exact outcome.

Dont you see that we are trying to outlaw a thought? and what frightens me most, is that so many people are not only ok with it, but adamant about "punishing those sick bastards".

Now, I believe that there should be punishment for someone that actually molests a 9 year old... but what is the harm if someone wants to use photoshop or CGI to make a fictional character that depicts a child like innocence and beats off to it?

can anyone tell me why the picture in the OP isnt considered child pornography? what would we have to do to make it child pornography?
will there come a tiem when we cannot take pictures of babies unless they are clothed.
do we outlaw norman rockwell-esque drawing that depict young boys skinny dipping off a pier?

what is it that scalia said? "we cant define porn, but I know it when I see it"?

do we outlaw parks so that pedophiles cant go masturbate to children playing on the monkey bars?
I just dont see where the threat is. If I had children, I wouldnt leave them in the company of people I felt had a penchant for pedophilia. its that easy.
there arent marauding hordes of people out there trying to shove your kid into a windowless van.

I just think it is an useless overreaction that merely compounds the problem that we are trying to combat so ineffeciently.

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8541146 - 06/19/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

now you can argue that he contributed indirectly to the deliquency of a minor by viewing that picture of a naked 17 year old girl...
but this very exact same thing could happen to someone with CGI kiddie porn, or even a picture of a naked 22 year old girl that happens to just look young


In some jurisdictions even a pencil drawing or written story depicting an imaginary person under 18 involved in sex is a felony.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Diploid]
    #8541155 - 06/19/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Huh. Is it true that pedos do not exist in tribal cultres?

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
    #8541177 - 06/19/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Huh. Is it true that pedos do not exist in tribal cultres?




this is the problem. this quote right here.

human nature is human nature. there are no abnormalities or abberations in nature. it is when we create this framework of rules in the hopes of making a copascetic society that we define sanity and normalcy.
pedophilia doesnt exist outside the framework of "civilized behaviour".
depression doesnt exist outside of "functioning in society".
ADHD doesnt exist outside of "well behaved children".

there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children.... because it ceases to be a "mental illness" when it is socially acceptable.
get it?

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
    #8541178 - 06/19/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Harder to hide your abnormal desires in a group of 30 vs. a city of 300,000.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8541206 - 06/19/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:

there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children.... because it ceases to be a "mental illness" when it is socially acceptable.
get it?




Yup, that's my point. Abnormal desires do not even develop in an environment free of oppressive repression.

I saw a billboard that said "Having sexual thoughts about children? Call for help..."

I thought "It was the farthest thing from my mind, till now."

It's the taboo and fear mongering in media that creates the predators, IMO.

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
    #8541220 - 06/19/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I saw a billboard that said "Having sexual thoughts about children? Call for help..."

I thought "It was the farthest thing from my mind, till now."





Did you call? :oogle:


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541230 - 06/19/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't have sexual thoughts about children.

My point was that the media forced me to have thoughts about having sexual thoughts about children. Get it?

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
    #8541316 - 06/19/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

No. Spell it out for me.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
    #8541413 - 06/19/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Quote:

YawningAnus said:

there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children.... because it ceases to be a "mental illness" when it is socially acceptable.
get it?




Yup, that's my point. Abnormal desires do not even develop in an environment free of oppressive repression.

I saw a billboard that said "Having sexual thoughts about children? Call for help..."

I thought "It was the farthest thing from my mind, till now."

It's the taboo and fear mongering in media that creates the predators, IMO.




Hmmm...so which cultures think that having sex with children is OK, yet don't actually practice having sex with children?

I agree that predatory sexual behavior is one of the results of a sexually-repressive society, yet must disagree that the media creates predators.  I also disagree that laws against something create or increase the desire to do the outlawed action.

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8541424 - 06/19/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I also disagree that laws against something create or increase the desire to do the outlawed action.




Alcohol use went up during Prohibition.

Cannabis use is lower among the Dutch than neighboring countries.

Can you say, 'Forbidden Fruit'?


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541439 - 06/19/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

So pedophiles are reacting to a perceived scarcity of sex with children?

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8541445 - 06/19/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

look at prohibition.
it is the sole reason that alcohol became so rampant.

all it did was drive up the demand and the price for it... it did nothing to squash consumption.

also, I dont see the point in citing societies that are ok with child sex yet dont practice child sex.

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8541450 - 06/19/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
look at prohibition.
it is the sole reason that alcohol became so rampant.

all it did was drive up the demand and the price for it... it did nothing to squash consumption.




Correlation is not causation.

Quote:

also, I dont see the point in citing societies that are ok with child sex yet dont practice child sex.




Quote:

there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children




Quote:

Pedophile
An adult who is sexually attracted to a child or children.



Edited by Veritas (06/19/08 05:05 PM)

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8541490 - 06/19/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So pedophiles are reacting to a perceived scarcity of sex with children?




Not like you to throw in a strawgirl argument. Are you a little bit under-the-weather today?


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8541525 - 06/19/08 05:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

your right, correlation is not causation, but it is acceptable when no other alternative is applicable.

everyone just got thirstier? speak easy's just happened to be the hip place to be seen?

and my point that you quoted above was that there are no pedophiles in societies where child sex is ok.... meaning that we create the label and "disorder" of pedophilia because we find it taboo.
it isnt like the american moral framework of human behaviour is the foundation for natural human behaviour. dont you see that the incongruency between real, primal human behaviour and "civilized" behaviour are what is causing mental disorders to stick out?

there is no pedophilia (in the negative sense of the word) in palces that find it to be normal behaviour.
it would be like us calling soccer moms some word that denotes mental instability because they drive minivans.

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541534 - 06/19/08 05:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

okay i think i am kinda getting this thread. I have three kids BTW. I also consider myself an Anarcho-Socialist. Frankly, Mr. Anus, you picked one hell of a topic to base the conversation off of. I think that is really throwing people off. Man i really hope your not having sexaul thoughts about children. I am just going to assume your not.

If i am understanding the point here.....

In western society, not specifically USA but any modern civilization, fear is used to control the mass's. it is happening now with this whole terrorism BS. Frankly though, I am torn when it comes to crime and punishment. I have been in jail. it is no place for people. and considering that i believe that all crime either stems from social ill's or mental illnes' ( yes, some folks are just fucking nuts. they're nothing close to normal(term used very loosely mind you). there are imbalances in the brain. schizophrenia, for example.) locking people up is not going to help them. when they get out of jail,prison what ever, they will still be faced with the same problems that got them there in the first place.
  But what is the alternative? you really don't think it is ok to go around messing with children do you. that is a problem. you can not compare being molested to a child falling down. first of all the former is a NON consensual activity. the child does not haver the mental capacity's to make a decision as to whether or not they want to partake in sexual activity. the latter is something that happens to every one. its called an accident. children do not get accidentally molested. society has created molesters, murders and other predators. even if by some miracle we start a Utopian society tomorrow it will be decades and generations before all the existing sick people have died off or have been rehabilitated. so what to do? I hear you pointing out the problem but i do not see you giving us a viable alternative.
one final point. I am a victim. I did not enjoy being molested. it wasn't fucking fun for me. and i still deal with over twenty five years later. and every time i hear about the NAMBLO fucks it makes my blood boil. If i knew with out a doubt that someone molested my children..............:evil:


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541582 - 06/19/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

So pedophiles are reacting to a perceived scarcity of sex with children?




Not like you to throw in a strawgirl argument. Are you a little bit under-the-weather today?




I was making the point that both of the examples you gave could also be explained as reactions to perceived scarcity.  Do you think that people who were not attracted to alcohol became so because of prohibition?  Likewise, did serious ganja-addicts lose interest because it was made legal?

Laws against sex with children or photos/movies of children in sexually-suggestive poses do not create attraction to children, and elimination of said laws would not end attraction to children.

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8541594 - 06/19/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

im not saying that actual child molestation is being overblown.
Im pointing out the absurdity of outlawing pictures of such.

there was a case not too long ago of a kid that had just turned 18 that posted or sent some nude pictures of himself to someone else, and he was charged with having child pornography.
another case I read was about divorced parents and the father had his weekend with the child and took a picture of his 5 year old son mooning him. the wife used it to gain full custody of the child even though it was evident that there was no molestation occuring.

I also dont agree with you that children cannot make a decision in their sexual exploits. I imagine that everyone here had some sort of sexual encounter with another child before the age of 10. we take sex way too seriously and take it upon ourselves to pound this convulted outlook we have regarding sex, into the childs heads a little before puberty.
this idea of "we know whats best for you" is a nice way of saying that you are going to grow up and live the same miserable life I did.
recently NPR did a show on two 10 year olds that are transgender... what about those kids on the HBO special that are 3rd graders stating their sexual preference?
what about 7th grade girls dressing like sluts?
you want to say that these kids dont know enough about sex to make a "right" decision, but seems to me they know plenty about it.

on a side note regarding this... it is this type of "family first" self righteous mentality that ignites this fervor.
"I brought a child into this world so you all better snap in line and limit yourselves for the safety of my child!"

bottom line, it harms no one if someone looks at CGI of child porn. it harms no one if you look at pictures of women posing as children.
why make that illegal?

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8541705 - 06/19/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:


I also dont agree with you that children cannot make a decision in their sexual exploits. I imagine that everyone here had some sort of sexual encounter with another child before the age of 10.






on the contrary. scientific evidence has shown that the human brain continues to grow and develop well into a persons 20's. there for, If a person is not capable of really considering the consequences to there actions, there actions need to be governed by some one else, like a parent. for example. my teen age daughter believes she can drive. she knows the basic workings of an automobile and has some knowledge of the traffic laws. yet because i know here maturity level, and most often lack there of, i really do not believe she should be operating a vehicle. a child does not have the mental capacity to realize all the consequences about sex. I also realize that in USA the line that says a person is capable of making adult decisions is blurred. 16 to dive, 18 to vote, 21 to drink etc...in Texas the consensual age for sex is 17 btw.

a couple of ten year olds exploring each others bodies is not the same as a thirty year old man exploring there body's.


  as far as how this pertains to a CGI or photo of a grown adult woman portrayed as a child. those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok. serial killers never just start killing lots of people. normally they begin with small animals and then hurting people. often then leading to peeping or other sexual deviance. eventually there desires grow and poof 10 people are dead.

  also, if you feel that child molestation is not ok, then why would you feel like media depicting children in a sexaul manor should be accepted?


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8541727 - 06/19/08 06:09 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

i am about to have to run a show right now, so I dont have time to fully reply to your post, I will in about two hours I hope...

Quote:

a couple of ten year olds exploring each others bodies is not the same as a thirty year old man exploring there body's.





so why are two ten year olds competent enough about sex to experiment, yet not enough with a 30 year old?
and why do we find the former ok, almost "cute", and the latter horribly disgusting?

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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8541773 - 06/19/08 06:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
i am about to have to run a show right now, so I dont have time to fully reply to your post, I will in about two hours I hope...

Quote:

a couple of ten year olds exploring each others bodies is not the same as a thirty year old man exploring there body's.





so why are two ten year olds competent enough about sex to experiment, yet not enough with a 30 year old?
and why do we find the former ok, almost "cute", and the latter horribly disgusting?




are you fucking for real man!!!!! god damn dude if i have to spell that out for you, you have some serious freakin problems. I am so done with this thread...........


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
    #8541853 - 06/19/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I was making the point that



You were presenting an argument that I never made. This, as you know, is a strawman. I showed facts counter to your statement about illegality not attracting illegal activity and said nothing about kiddie porn.

You should know better. :nono:

Alcohol use unsurprisingly increased shortly after prohibition was repealed (a spike), then settled to a lower usage then pre-prohibition.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8541890 - 06/19/08 07:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilonaut1 said:
  as far as how this pertains to a CGI or photo of a grown adult woman portrayed as a child. those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok.



So the idea is a crime as well? Hmmmm you seem to be suggesting that even thinking about the act is a crime.....the actual thought itself. Like some sort of crime of ideas...or thinking........of thought.....a:strokebeard:
thought<<<<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<crime
thought<<crime
THOUGHTCRIME:eek:oh shit!

"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death."












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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8541916 - 06/19/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

as far as how this pertains to a CGI or photo of a grown adult woman portrayed as a child. those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok.

Extending this silly thought-police idea leads to the banning of films and burning of books that depict murder. There goes my Agatha Christy collection. :rolleyes:


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Diploid]
    #8541932 - 06/19/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Have you seen the new Onion Movie where they have a murder mystery party with a rape instead? Funny.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8542440 - 06/19/08 09:28 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

psilonaut1 said:
  as far as how this pertains to a CGI or photo of a grown adult woman portrayed as a child. those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok.



So the idea is a crime as well? Hmmmm you seem to be suggesting that even thinking about the act is a crime.....the actual thought itself. Like some sort of crime of ideas...or thinking........of thought.....a:strokebeard:
thought<<<<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<crime
thought<<crime
THOUGHTCRIME:eek:oh shit!

"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death."











Awfully nice of you to quote me after I had said I am done with this thread. Now i feel obliged to defend myself........

I never said, nor implied that such actions should be illegal. I simply said that it is a precursor to a far worse mental condition. And a person who is involving them selves in getting off to little girls need some kind of help. I have implied in a previous post in this thread I do not agree necessarily with putting people in little boxs. you should read the entire thread before you go off half cocked armed with some old, over used Orwelling attack. 

so you were simply attempting to get a rise out of me or are you actually trying to defend child pornagrphy?


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8542514 - 06/19/08 09:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilonaut1 said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

psilonaut1 said:
  as far as how this pertains to a CGI or photo of a grown adult woman portrayed as a child. those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok.



So the idea is a crime as well? Hmmmm you seem to be suggesting that even thinking about the act is a crime.....the actual thought itself. Like some sort of crime of ideas...or thinking........of thought.....a:strokebeard:
thought<<<<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<crime
thought<<crime
THOUGHTCRIME:eek:oh shit!

"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death."











Awfully nice of you to quote me after I had said I am done with this thread. Now i feel obliged to defend myself........

I never said, nor implied that such actions should be illegal. I simply said that it is a precursor to a far worse mental condition. And a person who is involving them selves in getting off to little girls need some kind of help. I have implied in a previous post in this thread I do not agree necessarily with putting people in little boxs. you should read the entire thread before you go off half cocked armed with some old, over used Orwelling attack. 

so you were simply attempting to get a rise out of me or are you actually trying to defend child pornagrphy?




I do not agree with child pornography, but I will defend to the death your right right to pornographicate my.......er your children!hehe :grin:

While I do believe trying to ban a though is absurd, I was only trying to bring a little humor to the child porn thread. Emotionally active topics sometimes need a giggle to soften the content.

Oh and thanks, I will happily be using the term cock armed at any opportunity from here on out.


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Offlinepsilonaut1
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544094 - 06/20/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Your right that this is an extremely emotional topic. So many people can personalize it that i feel much empathy should be used when discussing such things. like i said initially, maybe child pornography wasn't the best anecdote for the conversation. I truly believe that consensual  activity's of all forms should not be criminalized. I also feel that a person should have the mental capability's to make such decisions.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8544439 - 06/20/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I had a disposable camera at the birth of my second son, a nurse took some pictures (at my request) of him coming out. I dropped the film off at Walgreens, and they REFUSED to give me one that had depicted both my vagina and his penis as he was exiting my body, saying that it was a "Possible sexual scenario" due to the presence of both adult and child genetalia...

RIDICULOUS!!


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544544 - 06/20/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

psilonaut1 said:
  as far as how this pertains to a CGI or photo of a grown adult woman portrayed as a child. those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok.



So the idea is a crime as well? Hmmmm you seem to be suggesting that even thinking about the act is a crime.....the actual thought itself. Like some sort of crime of ideas...or thinking........of thought.....a:strokebeard:
thought<<<<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<<<<crime
thought<<<<crime
thought<<crime
THOUGHTCRIME:eek:oh shit!

"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death."






Thought is often a crime or element of one.  The problem with many laws, child porn laws included, are the lack of scienter, imo.  We need more thought crime if this is what your saying.


ANyways "you seem to be suggesting that even thinking about the act is a crime".  No, he was refering to having a CGI image of child pornography that you believe to be depicting child pornography.


In any case, you can drop the pretense.  This is allready a crime.

As is merely thinking about selling drugs, making drugs, or whatever, if you decide to do it.

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Offlinepsilonaut1
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544624 - 06/20/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
I had a disposable camera at the birth of my second son, a nurse took some pictures (at my request) of him coming out. I dropped the film off at Walgreens, and they REFUSED to give me one that had depicted both my vagina and his penis as he was exiting my body, saying that it was a "Possible sexual scenario" due to the presence of both adult and child genetalia...

RIDICULOUS!!




ya your right. i think the pic in the Op is fine too. Walgreens is a privately owned business and they should be able to make what ever decisions they want to concerning there business. If you don't like there ethics use a different store. they shouldn't be entitled by law to a damned thing IMHO. walgreens and walmart for that matter have refused to develop sexually explicit photos for me in the past. we have three polaroids and we love or digi cams. :grin:

let me give a different anecdote that is every bit as extreme or at least as controversial as pornography. Years ago some friends of mine,(no really, this time i'm fo real :tongue: ) were putting together a performance art show in Dallas. This would be a show involving people doing body suspension. Hooks in the skin from which people suspend. Adult people for the record. for the advertisement for this show they used my friends little baby boy. He couldn't have been more than six months old. They took the little guy and held him over A stainless steal table and sat his little bare ass on it. of course the table was cold so the baby made a horrid face and extended all his limbs spread eagle like. They then took the digital image and CGed hooks into the baby's chest so it looked like he was actually be hung from the skin in his chest. Just so happens that they release the ad during child abuse prevention week. Needless to say there was a huge uproar over the pic. the police got involved, the DA did an investigation. they talked about taking the kids away from my friend. a bunch of shit.
I personally have many pics of my kids in the bath tub, them naked as infants and toddlers. I do not see any harm in that. I do feel on the other hand that there is a line between between pictures that intentionally portray a child in a sexually explicit manor and a harmless photo of you child.
  BTW CGI's of children IS NOT ILLEGAL. Real people pretending to be teens in a sexually explicit manor is.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: psilonaut1]
    #8545033 - 06/20/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

  • Thought is often a crime or element of one.  The problem with many laws, child porn laws included, are the lack of scienter, imo. 


The problem with child porn laws is scienter? (intent) Im not sure I follow what your getting at.

  • We need more thought crime if this is what your saying.

Again, Im not sure what your saying, I seem to be misunderstanding you. Is that a statement, as in we need more laws banning the thought of an act? Maybe I'm having a tard moment, but Im just not getting it.

  • No, he was referring to having a CGI image of child pornography that you believe to be depicting child pornography.


When I asked him why CGI (is it even a crime?) or pretending should be a crime as well he stated.

"those activity's perpetrate the idea that sex with a child is ok."

Maybe you missed my other post the whole thought crime thing was just me being dramatic, and trying to lighten the mood a little. Anything involving the abuse of children can be pretty emotionally volatile, making it hard to have a rational discussion. Sometimes you just need a little kookyness to mellow everyone out.:grin:

  • In any case, you can drop the pretense.  This is already a crime.
    As is merely thinking about selling drugs, making drugs, or whatever, if you decide to do it.


It can be pretty hard to tell sometimes reading what someone wrote, but maybe your were being sarcastic,(thats what this guy is for:smirk:)but thinking about "selling or making drugs" is certainly not a crime.


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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8545906 - 06/20/08 10:56 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

w/ regards to the drugs, I mispoke.  Deciding to manufacture drugs, for example, is a crime even if you don't take any steps to accomplish that goal.  Likewise you can be convicted of conspiracy by a simple agreement among the parties to make LSD, i.e.  No overt act neccesary, like was required at common law, only intent.


As for the scienter argument, I was saying that their should need to be intent to posses child pornography before it is a crime.  Strict liability crimes are pretty repugnant.  I think someone who innocently buys pornography, or innocently opens this page to get a thumbnail in his cache which is illegal should not have violated the law.  Course prosecutors like it cuz it gives them all the discretion: they don't have to prosecute those they don't care for, but they can prosecute those who they choose to screw.  I think laws should be strictly enforced as written or struck down as unenforcable selective prosecutions when they're invoked.

W/ reagards to the child porn thought crime, its also a crime to sell simulated child porn or posses it with the expectation that it depicts child porn, irregardless of whether it is actually, i.e. adult actors (American Beauty for example) or computer images.  It doesn't sound like you disagreed with this though, just clarifying what I meant.


Another thing w/ child porn laws I don't like is their is no age range like in statutory rape.

If I take a pic of myself, and I'm under 18, it shouldn't be child pornography production.  Same if I take a pic of my underage gf and I'm also underage or legally able to have sex with her.  Silliness.

The laws are ridiculous and seem to be passed with no regard to what they actually encompas, see the happyhippies example.  Somehow someone made a policy based on the law, presumably, that sex organs in a picture couldn't be displayed if they were juveniles and adults or something.  What nonsense.  Not that this is the law, but illustrates the insanity.  Is a picture of a post-delivery female's genitalia in-frame with a kid's genitals pornographic?  I'm sure someone would be aroused, but I don't see how any rational person could conclude it to be porn.  Same thing with the laws, they cover areas they shouldn't.

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: johnm214]
    #8550040 - 06/22/08 07:43 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

The media recording of a criminal act should not be illegal.  The act of violating another persons rights is what should be illegal, not the media recording of the event.  The recording of the act is evidence, mere possession of such should not be criminal.

For example a rape is recorded on a public beach.  The media is then sold on the market as an erotic "forced sex" video.    The possession of such video should not be illegal.  Laws that seek to ban such video are Orwellian in nature and are seeking to police "thoughtcrime".  No victim is involved by merely possessing the video.

Just because most of society will be repelled that Mr. Jones likes repellent video is no reason to violate Mr. Jone s's right to possess such video.  Only when Mr. Jones actually goes out and violates the rights of an innocent victim should the State actually consider that a crime. 

If "thoughcrime" becomes a precedent then all media will come under the State's scrutiny.  Next thing that will happen is movies will become illegal if certain objectionable content is involved.  Once the principle of "thoughtcrime" is established justification can be made for every kind of censorship for the public good.

This is what happens when individual rights cease to be the cornerstone of what the law should be based on.

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