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Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
#8540165 - 06/19/08 09:00 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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blewmeanie said:
Quote:
Boots said: Until I get interested in child pornography, I could give a fuck about the laws regarding it, lol.
And its that kind of philosophy on life that allows our freedoms to be slowly eroded away day by day.
Then, please, tell me why I should care? I don't personally know anybody that makes money off of child pornography, nor do I know any friends that look at it (that I know of), and third, I don't have any kids.
I'm not trying to argue, merely giving you the opportunity to tell me why I should care about something that isn't directly affecting me.
And if somebody posts that stupid "and nobody came for me" poem, I will shit a brick.
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blewmeanie




Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Boots]
#8540208 - 06/19/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I dont support child pornographers, but they are people, and I do care how they get treated. (not to mention as previously pointed out the laws are a bit absurd) First you take someone like a child pornographer, or a "terrorist", and you bend there rights a bit until everyone gets used to it. Then maybe a rapist, then a murderer, and a thief, on down the line it goes. Little by little our liberty slips away, and we watch it happen like a frog being slowly boiled alive.
You always hear people talking about the nazi germany, or soviet russia as if one day all of the laws just changed, and no one did any thing about it. Thats not how it happens though, we get our reactions, and common sense slowly twisted into a state of fear and dependence by a bombardment of emotional reactive words, and a pervasive expectation of helplessness. We have become so dependent on the government to feel "secure" from day to day that people are not only accepting that their rights are being taken away, they are begging for it.
Tyranny grows exponentially stronger with every liberty lost, and no one even seems to realize its happening.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#8540767 - 06/19/08 01:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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This topic seems more like politics than P&S, but since the OP wants it here and it's borderline philosophy, I'll just let it run its course here.
Meanwhile, here's a scary (though admittedly politics-leaning) story on the news wires today that could happen to any one of us:
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Man Cleared of Child Porn Charges After Hiring Computer Forensics Expert
By Michele Masterson, ChannelWeb 5:57 PM EDT Wed. Jun. 18, 2008
Here's a lesson for computer neophytes -- when you get accused of having child porn on your computer, subsequently get fired, lose your friends and family and face prosecution -- hire a computer forensic expert to clear your name -- assuming you're innocent of course.
That's what Michael Fiola, a former employee of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts did after getting fired for having child porn on his laptop. After a cursory examination, state investigators did in fact find child porn, which Fiola swore he didn't download and wouldn't even know how.
With charges that he downloaded images of child pornography onto his notebook filed against him, the 53-year-old Fiola became a pariah in his community, was shunned by friends and family and watched his wife develop a stress-related illness.
Fiola finally hired forensic computer expert Tami Loehrs of Tuscon, Ariz. to get to the bottom of the nightmare. The trouble began after Fiola, an investigator for the Department of Industrial Accidents, was issued a new laptop by the DIA in Nov. 2006 after his originally-issued laptop was stolen.
The replacement was a Dell (NSDQ:Dell) laptop computer equipped with a Dell broadband wireless card and Internet access through Verizon (NYSE:VZ) wireless, according to Loehrs' forensic report. The laptop was configured earlier that day.
But by March 2007, an investigator red flagged the computer after reviewing a Verizon wireless bill, noticing abnormally high data activity on Fiola's laptop -- usage was four-and-a-half times greater than any of the other investigators. Several days later, Fiola's laptop was taken and reviewed by investigators who found Website files and images of child pornography in the temporary Internet files folder. Subsequently, Fiola was fired and faced prosecution by the state.
In her examination, Loehrs noted that on certain dates, porn appeared "in the temporary Internet files with no apparent origin or user interaction preceding the pornographic activity. There were no Web site addresses typed into the browser, no searches conducted, no other pages accessed that led to the pornography appearing on the laptop. There are noSymantec (NSDQ: SYMC) logs for this date."
Loehrs said that although Symantec Corporate Edition was previously installed with the computer name BOLLE04 on September 20, 2006, it was reinstalled under the profile for "michaelf."
In addition, "Microsoft (NSDQ:MSFT)'s Systems Management server had previously been installed on September 20, 2006 with the computer name BOLLE04 and it appears that the new computer name BOLIN17 was not changed in the SMS software. According to the registry settings, the Windows Firewall was turned off."
The evidence showed that when Fiola used the laptop for the first time on November 20, 2006, he created several shortcuts to work related files such as mileage sheets, accessed several work-related Web sites, including Massachusetts Municipal Association and added these Web sites to his Internet favorites. Then on November 27, the first evidence of pornographic activity appeared on the computer.
"With no preceding activity by Fiola, a file titled smp[1].htm appears in the temporary Internet files folder," Loehrs wrote in her report. "The forensics software identifies this file type as unknown and the file is not viewable. However, the underlying HTML code includes several URLs in addition to several other unusual files. Because there was no user activity that prompted these files to appear such as an Internet search, access to other Web sites, checking e-mail or downloading files, this suspicious activity is indicative of a virus and/or Trojan that was likely resident on the Laptop when Fiola received," stated Loehrs.
Viruses and Trojans that were found on the laptop included Downloader, a Trojan that is a Windows Metafile image file; DriveCleaner, a rogue application distributed through aggressive pop ups; Feebs Family, malicious JavaScript that is usually embedded in a malicious Web site; and Trojan.ByteVerify.
But Loehrs said that "it is unknown what viruses and Trojans infected the computer during those four and a half months that were not recorded by Symantec or that did not leave a trace in the file system."
In conclusion of her report, Loehrs exonerated Fiola.
"In general, the pornography found in the temporary Internet files folder does not represent activity conducted by a user, specifically Michael Fiola," said Loehrs. "It is evident from reviewing the Symantec logs that the virus protection software was either not configured correctly or was not functioning properly. Log files for November and December are missing and entries for November are incomplete. Once they have been allowed to execute their code, they erase evidence of their tracks making it impossible to assess the damage. While it is impossible to say how badly the laptop was infected while it was in the possession of Michael Fiola, I can say with 100 percent certainty that the laptop was compromised by numerous viruses and Trojans and may have been hacked by outside sources."
According to her assistant, forensic analyst John Hansen, Fiola's computer was initially examined for "a grand total of three hours" by the DIA's IT department and never checked by forensic investigators. By contrast, Hansen said that he and Loehr examined the computer for over a month. Hansen also said that "no one was bothering to check" logs to see if the laptop was experiencing problems.
After Loehr's report was completed, charges were dropped aginst Fiola. "The overall forensics of the laptop suggest that it had been compromised by a virus," said Jake Wark, spokesman for Suffolk District Attorney Daniel Conley, according to the Boston Herald.
As for Fiola, he moved to Rhode Island and now works for another company. The DIA doesn't want him back and told the Boston Herald that it "stands by its decision" in terminating him. The Herald also quotes Fiola saying that he plans on suing the DIA for "destroying our lives."
"Imagine this scenario: your employer gives you a ticking time bomb full of child porn and then you get fired and then you get prosecuted as some kind of freak," Fiola's attorney Timothy Bradl, told the Herald. "Anybody who has a work laptop, this could happen to," he said.
ChannelWeb
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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blewmeanie




Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Diploid]
#8540922 - 06/19/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Scary stuff.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: blewmeanie]
#8540971 - 06/19/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I honestly agree with the philosophy which outlaws child pornography and child molestation. I don't think it's right to make porn of kids or to grope them or fuck them. I'm sorry, I just don't know how you could think it's okay in the first place. You can call that closed-minded of me, but so be it. 90% of the country agrees with me, and that is why we have these laws.
If I had kids and found out a stranger (OR my brother OR my wife OR a family friend, it really doesn't matter, YA) was fooling around with my nine-year-old kid one way or another, you better fucking believe I'd want help from the authorities in making it stop. Bottom line.
You might as well rail against manslaughter laws because sometimes people are wrongfully accused of manslaughter (that happens too, you know). And manslaughter keeps happening, even though it's illegal. Better legalize manslaughter, because these laws obviously aren't working!
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (06/19/08 02:22 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Boots]
#8540990 - 06/19/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
And if somebody posts that stupid "and nobody came for me" poem, I will shit a brick.
When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.
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blewmeanie




Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Im not saying that child porn should be acceptable, Im saying the way they treat people who are child pornographers, or child molesters is unacceptable to me.
Many peoples lives have been ruined over something as simple as having sex with a 16, or 17 year old.
Oh, and 90% of the country wouldn't agree with you. Maybe they would openly, but as scary as it may be pedophilia has become an almost common mental disorder.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: I honestly agree with the philosophy which outlaws child pornography and child molestation. I don't think it's right to make porn of kids or to grope them or fuck them. I'm sorry, I just don't know how you could think it's okay in the first place. You can call that closed-minded of me, but so be it. 90% of the country agrees with me, and that is why we have these laws.
If I had kids and found out a stranger (OR my brother OR my wife OR a family friend, it really doesn't matter, YA) was fooling around with my nine-year-old kid one way or another, you better fucking believe I'd want help from the authorities in making it stop. Bottom line.
You might as well rail against manslaughter laws because sometimes people are wrongfully accused of manslaughter (that happens too, you know). And manslaughter keeps happening, even though it's illegal. Better legalize manslaughter, because these laws obviously aren't working!
I think you completely missed my point. I dont think there is anyone here that wouldnt string someone up by their balls if they foud out they were molesting your child. get help from the authorities?
my point is that molestation, rape, incest... all of that has been around before internet child pornography... before cameras... it has always been around. we act like this is some new phenomena that was caused by people web surfing pictures and videos of questionably aged people.
and my grand point, is that this is how psychiatry works its "magic" on our society. Dyslexia, ADD, ADHD, homosexuality, anxiety disorders.... all "discovered" mental illnesses or functioning abberations that is a plague threatening the wellbeing of our children.
so what do we do with these people that get caught with pictures of naked 17 year olds on their computer? they go to jail, disowned by their family, lose their job... and when they get out of jail, they have to move away and then go door to door telling people that they are a sex offender that had child pornography on their computer. now this person never had to molest a child... but merely was found to have thoughts which were taboo and incongruent with what our society finds acceptable.
now you can argue that he contributed indirectly to the deliquency of a minor by viewing that picture of a naked 17 year old girl... but this very exact same thing could happen to someone with CGI kiddie porn, or even a picture of a naked 22 year old girl that happens to just look young with words or background designed to infer that she is a minor. same exact outcome.
Dont you see that we are trying to outlaw a thought? and what frightens me most, is that so many people are not only ok with it, but adamant about "punishing those sick bastards".
Now, I believe that there should be punishment for someone that actually molests a 9 year old... but what is the harm if someone wants to use photoshop or CGI to make a fictional character that depicts a child like innocence and beats off to it?
can anyone tell me why the picture in the OP isnt considered child pornography? what would we have to do to make it child pornography? will there come a tiem when we cannot take pictures of babies unless they are clothed. do we outlaw norman rockwell-esque drawing that depict young boys skinny dipping off a pier?
what is it that scalia said? "we cant define porn, but I know it when I see it"?
do we outlaw parks so that pedophiles cant go masturbate to children playing on the monkey bars? I just dont see where the threat is. If I had children, I wouldnt leave them in the company of people I felt had a penchant for pedophilia. its that easy. there arent marauding hordes of people out there trying to shove your kid into a windowless van.
I just think it is an useless overreaction that merely compounds the problem that we are trying to combat so ineffeciently.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#8541146 - 06/19/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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now you can argue that he contributed indirectly to the deliquency of a minor by viewing that picture of a naked 17 year old girl... but this very exact same thing could happen to someone with CGI kiddie porn, or even a picture of a naked 22 year old girl that happens to just look young
In some jurisdictions even a pencil drawing or written story depicting an imaginary person under 18 involved in sex is a felony.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Diploid]
#8541155 - 06/19/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Huh. Is it true that pedos do not exist in tribal cultres?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
#8541177 - 06/19/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Middleman said: Huh. Is it true that pedos do not exist in tribal cultres?
this is the problem. this quote right here.
human nature is human nature. there are no abnormalities or abberations in nature. it is when we create this framework of rules in the hopes of making a copascetic society that we define sanity and normalcy. pedophilia doesnt exist outside the framework of "civilized behaviour". depression doesnt exist outside of "functioning in society". ADHD doesnt exist outside of "well behaved children".
there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children.... because it ceases to be a "mental illness" when it is socially acceptable. get it?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
#8541178 - 06/19/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Harder to hide your abnormal desires in a group of 30 vs. a city of 300,000.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#8541206 - 06/19/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
YawningAnus said:
there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children.... because it ceases to be a "mental illness" when it is socially acceptable. get it?
Yup, that's my point. Abnormal desires do not even develop in an environment free of oppressive repression.
I saw a billboard that said "Having sexual thoughts about children? Call for help..."
I thought "It was the farthest thing from my mind, till now."
It's the taboo and fear mongering in media that creates the predators, IMO.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
#8541220 - 06/19/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I saw a billboard that said "Having sexual thoughts about children? Call for help..."
I thought "It was the farthest thing from my mind, till now."
Did you call?
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#8541230 - 06/19/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I didn't have sexual thoughts about children.
My point was that the media forced me to have thoughts about having sexual thoughts about children. Get it?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
#8541316 - 06/19/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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No. Spell it out for me.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Middleman]
#8541413 - 06/19/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Quote:
YawningAnus said:
there are no pedophiles in cultures where it is acceptable to have sex with children.... because it ceases to be a "mental illness" when it is socially acceptable. get it?
Yup, that's my point. Abnormal desires do not even develop in an environment free of oppressive repression.
I saw a billboard that said "Having sexual thoughts about children? Call for help..."
I thought "It was the farthest thing from my mind, till now."
It's the taboo and fear mongering in media that creates the predators, IMO.
Hmmm...so which cultures think that having sex with children is OK, yet don't actually practice having sex with children?
I agree that predatory sexual behavior is one of the results of a sexually-repressive society, yet must disagree that the media creates predators. I also disagree that laws against something create or increase the desire to do the outlawed action.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
#8541424 - 06/19/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I also disagree that laws against something create or increase the desire to do the outlawed action.
Alcohol use went up during Prohibition.
Cannabis use is lower among the Dutch than neighboring countries.
Can you say, 'Forbidden Fruit'?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#8541439 - 06/19/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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So pedophiles are reacting to a perceived scarcity of sex with children?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: the absurdity of child pornography laws. [Re: Veritas]
#8541445 - 06/19/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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look at prohibition. it is the sole reason that alcohol became so rampant.
all it did was drive up the demand and the price for it... it did nothing to squash consumption.
also, I dont see the point in citing societies that are ok with child sex yet dont practice child sex.
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