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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence
    #8534087 - 06/17/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Intelligent people less likely to believe in God

By Graeme Paton, Education Editor UK Telegraph

People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study.


Professor Lynn said religious belief had declined in the 20th century. Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists than the national average.

A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.

But the conclusions - in a paper for the academic journal Intelligence - have been branded "simplistic" by critics.

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Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.

A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.

He told Times Higher Education magazine: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th century at the same time as people became more intelligent.

But Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck College, London, said it failed to take account of a complex range of social, economic and historical factors.

"Linking religious belief and intelligence in this way could reflect a dangerous trend, developing a simplistic characterisation of religion as primitive, which - while we are trying to deal with very complex issues of religious and cultural pluralism - is perhaps not the most helpful response," he said.

Dr Alistair McFadyen, senior lecturer in Christian theology at Leeds University, said the conclusion had "a slight tinge of Western cultural imperialism as well as an anti-religious sentiment".

Dr David Hardman, principal lecturer in learning development at London Metropolitan University, said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt institutions."


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534112 - 06/17/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8534119 - 06/17/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Same theme - new study.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534148 - 06/17/08 03:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Same thing applies to much of the crap bandied here and on M&P.

A lack of critical thinking skills opens the door to many forms of unsubstantiated (i.e. wacky) belief.

A study conducted in 1974 with Georgia high-school seniors, for example, found that those who scored higher on an I.Q. test were significantly less superstitious than students with lower I.Q. scores. (3) A 1980 study by psychologists James Alcock and L. P. Otis found that belief in various paranormal phenomena was correlated with lower critical thinking skills. (4) In 1989, W. S. Messer and R. A. Griggs found that belief in such psi phenomena as out-of-body experiences, ESP, and precognition was negatively correlated with classroom performance as measured by grades (as belief goes up, grades go down). (5)

This is a polite way to say that Crop Circle believers (as being made by non-human mechanisms), astrology believers, homeopathy believers, UFO believers, chakra believers etc. are mentally deficient.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534160 - 06/17/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Wierzbicki (1985) found that believers made more errors on a test of syllogistic reasoning than did disbelievers.

No shit?! Believers cannot reason properly? :whoa:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534169 - 06/17/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

How to Start a Flame War

1.  Light figurative match (incendiary comments)
2.  Pour gasoline (sarcastic observations)
3.  Toss match into pool of gasoline (post on Shroomery)

:lol:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8534177 - 06/17/08 03:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What if the material presented is factual?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534189 - 06/17/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What does factuality have to do with emotional overreactions?

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534202 - 06/17/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
What if the material presented is factual?




Same deal; this is obviously a flame post.

However, there are plenty of scientists/linguists that believe in Something--God or otherwise.

I'm guessing Issac Newton and Einstein were idiots, according to this "fact".

Maybe this selection of individuals are pompous intellectuals who feel that they are above a higher power because of their intelligence? 

Let's not forget that everyone who has a XYZ IQ isn't running to get it tested/validated by some committee or join a group.


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
<passitbobbie> youd think it was female

"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/17/08 04:03 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8534204 - 06/17/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Shhhh! I'm :fishing:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534216 - 06/17/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Careful with those matches strawman.....  :smirk:


>^;;^<


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534232 - 06/17/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Its not that all religous people are stupid, its just that most stupid people happen to me religious.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8534243 - 06/17/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Its not that all religous people are stupid, its just that most stupid people happen to me religious.



Got it in one.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534252 - 06/17/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think most intellectuals are necessarily "non-believers", they just have a more refined belief system based on their own ideals and experiences. Many might still believe in God, but not in, say, Creationist theory, reincarnation, divine miracles, and any number of other things written in the Bible (or whatever text you prefer).

This was probably the case with people like Einstein and Newton.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8534264 - 06/17/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, the polls mentioned showed that a VERY small percentage of the academic elite believed in God.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8534295 - 06/17/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm...well maybe I should rephrase that as, believers are not necessarily dumb or have low IQs. I've met some pretty intelligent people that believe in God for respectable reasons.

I've also met quite a few people who believe for no better reason than that they have sheep mentality. Those are the ones I feel sorry for.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8534427 - 06/17/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The poll results indicate that few highly intelligent people profess a belief in God.  This does not mean that NO intelligent people have such a belief, but rather that it is more likely that a given person with a high IQ will be an atheist or agnostic.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8534440 - 06/17/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You can't use historical characters like Newton because back then pretty much everyone believed in God. And Einstein didn't believe in God, as has been discussed here many times before.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8534488 - 06/17/08 05:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And Einstein didn't believe in God, as has been discussed here many times before.





Don't get me started on belief and
memory retention. :nonono:


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8534514 - 06/17/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

And Einstein didn't believe in God, as has been discussed here many times before.





Don't get me started on belief and
memory retention. :nonono:




I did say people like Einstein and Newton, not Einstein and Newton themselves. But now I'm just splitting hairs. :banghead:


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Word to your mom.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8534873 - 06/17/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Intelligent people are less likely to believe anything they are told verbatim I would say, I can't see god being any different.

I fear that in this post religious society we live in that when the dumb folks stop believing in god too there will be nothing to force them to think with any forethought or regard for their fellow human beings.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8534922 - 06/17/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Afroshroomerican said:
\
Maybe this selection of individuals are pompous intellectuals who feel that they are above a higher power because of their intelligence? 

Let's not forget that everyone who has a XYZ IQ isn't running to get it tested/validated by some committee or join a group.




yep, I agree.

I think people who are smarter often have more education and can reject some textual-based religious claims easier as fanciful.

The outcome doesn't make much sense really unless there is some confounding factor.


There is no reason to disbelieve in god with more education, and so I'm not sure why the reverse would be true unless inteligence is correlated w/ social conditioning.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535425 - 06/17/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I guess it makes sense if you think about it.

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Boots]
    #8535500 - 06/17/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

1) Einstein was an agnostic-theist; he believed that the great order to the universe MUST have arisen from a divine creator, but no he did NOT believe in organized religion.

Quote:

But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive




http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einprayr.htm (This can be found on any other host of sites upon doing a google search)

2) IMO Atheism is as unfounded as everyone following an organized religion.  IF we want to get logical then let's consider:  What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?

Again, most highly intelligent people don't get their IQs tested (this is evident when you look at the host of influential scientists/engineers/linguists/mathematicians/philosophers etc).  So these studies are blah.


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
<passitbobbie> youd think it was female

"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8535574 - 06/17/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Shhhh! I'm :fishing:




Ironic then that you're gloating that unbelievers are more intelligent than believers :tongue:



Quote:

zouden said:
You can't use historical characters like Newton because back then pretty much everyone believed in God. And Einstein didn't believe in God, as has been discussed here many times before.




Einstein believed in a God, there was a thread on this recently that you could search for.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535644 - 06/17/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

2) IMO Atheism is as unfounded as everyone following an organized religion.  IF we want to get logical then let's consider:  What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?




Did someone discover fire, or was it invented? The concept that the universe needs a creator is purely human. It is just as likely that the universe was created by random happenstance as it was created by some all mighty being. Why does the universe need a reason to exist? Can't it just simply be?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535657 - 06/17/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Which concept isn't "purely human"?


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8535662 - 06/17/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Which concept isn't "purely human"?




Mathematics. Scientific facts.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535665 - 06/17/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Getting back on topic: Johnm214, you're educated, intelligent and religious - but I think you're the exception rather than the rule. You don't seem to be as rabidly religious as other people I know, in any case.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535678 - 06/17/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?




Did someone discover fire, or was it invented?




Fire was also discovered, regardless of whether it was invented or not. Even with fire not being invented, what you quoted, "What invention has lacked an inventor?," isn't affected or countered. Either way, fire is an effect which always has a cause.


Quote:

It is just as likely that the universe was created by random happenstance as it was created by some all mighty being.




What values did you take into consideration to arrive at this consensus? I'd like to read the report, which I hope has been peer-reviewed, if you have it handy.


Quote:

Why does the universe need a reason to exist? Can't it just simply be?




Regardless of your being defensive for the universe, it, and everything else, does have a cause and a reason for existing. Not knowing what that is is not paramount to there being none.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535679 - 06/17/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Which concept isn't "purely human"?




Mathematics. Scientific facts.




These concepts exist without a mind to think about them?  Note: not that the facts do not exist a priori, they do.  But thinking about them, i.e. the concepts themselves, cannot exist without a mind.

Which came first, the man or the math? :wink:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535690 - 06/17/08 11:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Getting back on topic: Johnm214, you're educated, intelligent and religious - but I think you're the exception rather than the rule. You don't seem to be as rabidly religious as other people I know, in any case.




Interesting comment, zouden.  What, in your mind, constitutes a religion?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8535694 - 06/17/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Note:  :fishing:  me too.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535697 - 06/17/08 11:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Einstein always carefully used the term "personal God" to distinguish between a pop-culture concept of God being a creator separate from its creation, which he disagreed with, and his own conception of a God which is all in all. He disliked religion, but was clear in his own theistic belief. The "clarification" you used is out of context.

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." - Einstein

Edited by Disco Cat (06/18/08 12:01 AM)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535722 - 06/17/08 11:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So we see that, according to Einstein, science or its admiration can be religious.  Science can be a religion?!?!  WTF!

Surely Einstein must be wrong.

What would Copenhagen say?  What would Skoal say?


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535762 - 06/18/08 12:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here is a more appropriate clarification of Einstein's view:

Quote:

My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.




He affirms that he believes in "a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life," and states that a system of reward and punishment, which he equated with general religion, isn't needed in the picture.


One more. Notice that the term "personal God," which he always uses when expressing a disagreement with the God concept, is absent from his explanation here, once again affirming his belief in a God, but not a "creator separate from its creation" God.
Quote:

I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws.




Einstein also had a particular affinity for Jesus.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8535768 - 06/18/08 12:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What would Copenhagen say?



"Without opening this box, we cannot tell if God is real or not. Until the box is opened, God is both real and imaginary at the same time" :psychsplit:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535774 - 06/18/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I have found no better expression than "religious" for confidence in the rational nature of reality, insofar as it is accessible to human reason. Whenever this feeling is absent, science degenerates into uninspired empiricism.




Added after edit.

Interesting man, Einstein.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535778 - 06/18/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

Well done.  :smile:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535795 - 06/18/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Fire was also discovered, regardless of whether it was invented or not. Even with fire not being invented, what you quoted, "What invention has lacked an inventor?," isn't affected or countered. Either way, fire is an effect which always has a cause.




You're right. I'm splitting hairs about the definition of "invention". I'm assuming fire to be a physical concept that has always existed...it was just waiting to be discovered by SOMEONE, not a specific person. Which I suppose could be true of all inventions.

The point of the matter is the comparison to the universe.....was it "created" by a single person, or are we, humanity, the ones discovering it. One implies the existence of an intelligent design behind it all, the other assumes that everything was here to begin with, and we are simply explorers in a vast realm of the unknown.

Was fire "created" by God? Or is it simply the result of atoms releasing energy as they combust with oxygen molecules?

My point is that its a 50/50 chance, no matter how you look at it. There are only two possible situations.

1) Every physical observation we have made is a result principals and laws created by a divine being, aka God.

2) The things which we observe are laws that have been created by the random merging of energy and particles. The universe can't be purely chaos...it has to have rules, but its perfectly acceptable that these rules may have come about arbitrarily.

No amount of scientific evidence can prove or disprove either of these theories. All I'm suggesting is that there may not be ANY divine power behind ANYTHING we've ever observed. Maybe it just simply exists.....is that so hard to accept?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535800 - 06/18/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Which concept isn't "purely human"?




Mathematics. Scientific facts.




I disagree; Mathematics and science are ways to rationalize our perceptions of the universe.  It aids in predicting and controlling certain forces of nature. It just so happens it works most of the time.

Science/Math is from study of the universe.  It wasn't just "here".  E.g.: Quantum Physics still has some happenings that are not understood; people have just found ways to model around it anyway.

No,  no one invented fire; however it doesn't come from nothing, so I don't see the rationale. 

I have never seen/heard anything come from nothing; aren't there scientific facts stating this?

And I'll rephrase: By what we have seen (scientifically) and by our commonsense, it is HIGHLY doubtful that something just "is".  Just because we can't prove the existence of a higher power doesn't preclude existence.


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Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/18/08 12:21 AM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535825 - 06/18/08 12:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There are particles in quantum physics that actually come from nothing.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9603/9603152v1.pdf


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535842 - 06/18/08 12:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


I disagree; Mathematics and science are ways to rationalize our perceptions of the universe.




Mathematics and science are more than just rationalizations. They are accurate descriptions (for the most part, there are definitely some theories that have yet to be fully proven...and I'm even open to possibility that existing proofs could be unproven.)

Boil it down to its simplest form.

1+1 = 2

It doesn't matter if you are a human, an ape, an iguana, or an alien. If you have one physical object and put it together with another physical object, you will have two physical objects. This is the basis for all math. Whatever we can physically observe, we describe it with the LANGUAGE of mathematics. Math is a way of describing what we see. The language of math can be written erroneously (1 + 1 = 3). Don't argue with me over semantics with this, "1" means a single physical object.

When used accurately, math describes the universe how it ACTUALLY is. Our perceptions don't play a part in it. Another being can PERCEIVE it in a different way, but if we could find a way to describe it in the same language, the concepts would be the same. Math and science describe physical TRUTHS. There is nothing abstract about.

Quote:


Science/Math is from study of the universe.  It wasn't just "here".




Wrong. It was just here. We have only lacked the language and ability to describe it until modern times.

Quote:

it is HIGHLY doubtful that something just "is".  Just because we can't prove the existence of a higher power doesn't preclude existence.




This is your human disposition kicking in. It is very likely that something simply is. What is more likely is that we don't yet understand, and don't have the language to describe everything that "is". We can't prove the existence of a higher power, and yet, we haven't proved it either. Again, 50/50 chance.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535893 - 06/18/08 12:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nonetheless, with math/science etc, there are still things that cannot be predicted with infallible accuracy (unless you want to head over to the predicting Earthquakes thread). 

Then we have "statistics" that can HELP us predict occurrences.  But these are never 100% accurate.  They are just rationalizations.  The universe doesn't conform to us; we conform to it.

There are TONS AND TONS of things in math/science that aren't 100% "truths".  Last time I opened a science book (I admit not in awhile--it is the summer :stoned:), it was littered with "theories".

I never said that there is 100% chance of there being a higher power; I just said it's more understandable and more likely based on what we see. 

But we can argue this till the death.  I like science etc, but I don't like the way some use it to claim they figured out all of the world.

P.S.--I'm not reading that whole PDF.  If there is something which states that something comes from nothing, then that violates other "laws" and goes to show that science is based on rationale not always "truths"


--------------------
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<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
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Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/18/08 01:02 AM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535899 - 06/18/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What Einstein called, "uninspired empiricism."

Without philosophy, science wouldn't exist.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535901 - 06/18/08 01:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I agree Afro...and i'm glad you're willing to seek the middle ground here. As i've said, i believe in a 50/50 chance that what we see from day to day has arrived from purely random chance, or that it was created by divine power. I'm fully aware that much of science is purely theory..and even what we think we might know, the things we take for certain, may actually be false.

All I was trying to describe was the concept behind math and science, what its purpose is. I think, ultimately, we have to look inside for answers, not out. We each should create our own language to describe the universe, and share it with as many people as we can.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535919 - 06/18/08 01:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
We each should create our own language to describe the universe, and share it with as many people as we can.




IMO, that's what religion tries to do, but it becomes tainted by human faults and desires.  Then the hive-like mentality kicks in and the weak follow the strong--many instances of this outside of religion have been seen throughout history.

E.G. Christianity had a huge fan-base (I don't mean to sound blasphemous--but that's what it takes for anything to become popular really).  But that's their way of believing and it does have sound moral structure despite having governmental qualities.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535936 - 06/18/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah...its a pretty good possibility that Christianity, along with other religions, probably spawned from a single person trying to make sense of the universe on his own terms. Chances are that person was extremely charismatic, and accrued followers to his beliefs because they couldn't figure things out on their own.

The one nice thing about organized religion is that it does include philosophical insights into the human character and behavior. It provides moral codes and ethics, that if truly followed, would make the world a much better place. But somehow...these aspects of organized religion are the easiest to forget and circumvent. How many Christians break commandments on a regular basis with the excuse of, "I will confess my sins, and God will forgive me."?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8536041 - 06/18/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
There are particles in quantum physics that actually come from nothing.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9603/9603152v1.pdf




Not possible. I think that is talking about creating particles by ramming beams of radiation into each other within a vacuum at high velocity, creating an electron and a positron. This is creating matter from energy where there previously was no matter, but it's not creating something out of nothing.

Edited by Disco Cat (06/18/08 02:29 AM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8537108 - 06/18/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
There are particles in quantum physics that actually come from nothing.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9603/9603152v1.pdf




Not possible. I think that is talking about creating particles by ramming beams of radiation into each other within a vacuum at high velocity, creating an electron and a positron. This is creating matter from energy where there previously was no matter, but it's not creating something out of nothing.




Great point.

If I remember correctly from chem class, matter can not be created or destroyed.

Now I'm caught in a vicious thought cycle, if energy can generate matter, and matter is needed to generate energy, which came first, the energy or the matter?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8537210 - 06/18/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Y'all are missing a very important angle of the assertions made by the article:

Quote:

But Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck College, London, said it failed to take account of a complex range of social, economic and historical factors.




Lest we forget academia is primarily a secular institution, so is in any wonder that the academic elites will profess a certain cultural ideology?

Not to mention that IQ is also correlated with the amount of education *cough* indoctrination *cough* that a person receives, and that the definition of "intelligence" is in iteself a very slippery thing.

In an oral, preliterate culture, memory capacity would be synonymous with "intelligence", whereas in our culture logical-reasoning (non-mystical thinking) is the definition of intelligence.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8537608 - 06/18/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nunbuh_Chrubble said:

Not to mention that IQ is also correlated with the amount of education *cough* indoctrination *cough* that a person receives, and that the definition of "intelligence" is in iteself a very slippery thing.






Did I read that right, did you really just equate a lack of religious belief in someone with a greater than average intelligence to indoctrination by education?

The more intelligent someone is, and the more education they have had, the less likely they are to accept anything as fact without at least some supporting evidence There simply is no evidence of god, and there never will be aside from unprovable personal experience. This all seems like a pretty basic concept to me.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8537648 - 06/18/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nice bulk grow! I would wager that you got great results using logic and scientific methods.

I would also pit the top five skeptics here against the top five UFO nuts, Jesus-Freaks, Crop Circle-jerks or whatever in an intelligence /spacial reasoning / logic test for BIG MONEY.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8537649 - 06/18/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You're incorrect. IQ is not affected by the amount of education one receives.

Also:
Quote:

Lest we forget academia is primarily a secular institution



What we are discussing is the reason why this is the case.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8537670 - 06/18/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence




As so rightly said in another thread by another intelligent guy,
being intelligent does not equal being right....    :smirk:

:grin:


>^;;^<


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8537970 - 06/18/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Afroshroomerican said:
Nonetheless, with math/science etc, there are still things that cannot be predicted with infallible accuracy (unless you want to head over to the predicting Earthquakes thread). 

Then we have "statistics" that can HELP us predict occurrences.  But these are never 100% accurate.  They are just rationalizations.  The universe doesn't conform to us; we conform to it.





Nope, math is natural and perfect.

If you messed up a calculation you either did something wrong or are confusing percision with accuracy.


If I use the value of pi to be 3 and carve out my circle based on that I'll be accurate, but it won't look much like a circle.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8538073 - 06/18/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8540335 - 06/19/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Intelligent people less likely to believe in God




:yesnod::congrats:

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8540377 - 06/19/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.



How so? Math is nothing more than a system of symbols and rules used to predict the outcome or formation of various patterns.

The patterns would exist without us, but I dont see how an abstract insight into them would.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8540660 - 06/19/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

zouden said:
Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.



How so? Math is nothing more than a system of symbols and rules used to predict the outcome or formation of various patterns.

The patterns would exist without us, but I dont see how an abstract insight into them would.




I think what you're shooting for here is, math can be used perfectly. Math is a language....nothing more, nothing less. English too, can be used perfectly. Although usually English is used to describe abstract thoughts, so when someone says something has been described perfectly, another person might not view it as such.

Math, like any other language, can also be used creatively. Ever seen a tee shirt that says "Want to..." and with the integral of 2xdx, bounded from 10 to 13. Its a joke meaning 'Want to 69?"


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8540703 - 06/19/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

IQ has not been used as a measure of intelligence for more than fifty years. :rolleyes: Quotient implies a division, which for IQ used to be mental age divided by actual age times 100. Today we get a person's intelligence score by computing their percentile rank when compared against a large sample in their own age range. Anyone that is trying to use this metrics is either intentionally being deceptive or is clueless about psychometrics and statistics. The very concept of measuring general intelligences is suspicious and clouded with questions of construct validity; the tests and statistics used to derive g is questionable too.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8540953 - 06/19/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It is true that many questions and criticisms have been raised over the years regarding the validity of IQ testing. However, as far as I can tell from reading the article it isn't really an issue here since IQ tests were never administered for this study.

Instead, it seems the author makes the assumption that because a person has achieved the status of college professor, that person is more intelligent than someone who hasn't.  Those who have attended college should recognize that it takes more than simply intelligence to be successful academically.  Namely, discipline and dedication, and a strong will to overcome challenges, not to mention an opportunity to attend in the first place.

Not only that, but it is arguable how much intelligence is actually needed to become a college professor.  It is certainly somewhat dependent on field of study, but many college students will have encountered faculty who are clearly challenged in their ability to reason.  And how rare it is that a college professor's intelligence will actually be impressive.

So it should be apparent then that the title of the article, "Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence" is a fallacious conclusion based on the evidence presented.  It can be seen that there is a link between the state of being an "Academic Elitist" and irreligiousity, however such correlations may be the result of any number of factors and not necessarily linked to intelligence in any way.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8540959 - 06/19/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Write to the author of the article.

Anyway you want to look at it no five faith believers here will accept the challenge against the best P&S skeptic minds.

Argue that!


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: mofo]
    #8541021 - 06/19/08 02:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Just to clarify which individuals were polled:

Quote:

The Royal Society
The Society's statutes state that candidates for election must have made "a substantial contribution to the improvement of natural knowledge, including mathematics, engineering science and medical science".




Quote:

National Academy of Sciences

Members and foreign associates are elected annually in recognition of their distinguished achievements in original research; election is considered one of the highest honors that can be accorded a scientist or engineer. Currently, as many as 72 members and 18 foreign associates may be elected annually.





We are not talking about just any old college professors, but some of the most distinguished scientists in the world.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541092 - 06/19/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Write to the author of the article.

Anyway you want to look at it no five faith believers here will accept the challenge against the best P&S skeptic minds.

Argue that!


Swami Challenges proposed to date: 63.

Swami Challenges accepted: 1

Swami Challenges reneged on: 1 (Yay Shroomism! - service-to-others liar and cheater.)




you're on bitch

http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/

I did the eCMA

user: mofo
religion: Roman Catholic
IQ per highiqsociety.org website: 123




Veritas- While I certainly respect these men and women for their hard work and achievements, it still doesn't prove they are significantly more intelligent than the average person, and even if they were, logical reasoning is a skill that is honed by practice, which they would be getting in their daily work.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: mofo]
    #8541128 - 06/19/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

logical reasoning is a skill that is honed by practice




True dat.

What skill is enhanced through Bible-thumping?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541149 - 06/19/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

magical thinking?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: mofo]
    #8541165 - 06/19/08 03:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
I certainly respect these men and women for their hard work and achievements, it still doesn't prove they are significantly more intelligent than the average person, and even if they were, logical reasoning is a skill that is honed by practice, which they would be getting in their daily work.




Yes, I am sure that the most distinguished scientists in the world are at or below average intelligence.  :rolleyes:

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8541180 - 06/19/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: mofo]
    #8541710 - 06/19/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Write to the author of the article.

Anyway you want to look at it no five faith believers here will accept the challenge against the best P&S skeptic minds.

Argue that!


Swami Challenges proposed to date: 63.

Swami Challenges accepted: 1

Swami Challenges reneged on: 1 (Yay Shroomism! - service-to-others liar and cheater.)




you're on bitch

http://www.highiqsociety.org/iq_tests/

I did the eCMA

user: mofo
religion: Roman Catholic
IQ per highiqsociety.org website: 123




Veritas- While I certainly respect these men and women for their hard work and achievements, it still doesn't prove they are significantly more intelligent than the average person, and even if they were, logical reasoning is a skill that is honed by practice, which they would be getting in their daily work.



user: blewmeanie
religion: Agnostic at best
IQ per highiqsociety.org website: 127:tongue:






What now!:crankey:



Seriously though it seems completely unreasonable to try and measure someones intelligence with a test....and an online one at that.

Of course high IQed non-believers like myself have trouble believing in things without proof.:grin:

(These tests are excelent at one thing for sure....stroking your ego. I wonder what they're selling?)


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8542114 - 06/19/08 08:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

IQ tests are actually a lot better than people think. And no, online tests don't count.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8542174 - 06/19/08 08:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
IQ tests are actually a lot better than people think. And no, online tests don't count.



Do online tests really not count, or are you just too afraid of throwing down the IQ test gauntlet?:smirk:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8542184 - 06/19/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

IQ tests are actually a lot better than people think.

I don't know that they necessarily say much about intelligence, but from what I know of them, they correlate well with scholastic achievement.

People who score high on these tests generally do well in school, and the opposite too.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #8542217 - 06/19/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I don't know that they necessarily say much about intelligence




They say a lot about certain aspects of intelligence (generally: reasoning, logic, extrapolation, interpolation and spatial visualization) and are easily testable as compared to something like 'social intelligence'.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8542310 - 06/19/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:

What now!:crankey:



Seriously though it seems completely unreasonable to try and measure someones intelligence with a test....and an online one at that.

Of course high IQed non-believers like myself have trouble believing in things without proof.:grin:

(These tests are excelent at one thing for sure....stroking your ego. I wonder what they're selling?)




What now? You can join their club, bro.  I was one point shy :doh:

I actually didn't really check how legit this test is, but I went back and browsed the site a bit and it sounds like they made a serious effort to approximate a real IQ test.  I think they're trying to compete with Mensa, only they'll accept the top 5% where Mensa only accepts the top 2% or 3% or something.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8542490 - 06/19/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Just to clarify which individuals were polled:

Quote:

The Royal Society
The Society's statutes state that candidates for election must have made "a substantial contribution to the improvement of natural knowledge, including mathematics, engineering science and medical science".




Quote:

National Academy of Sciences

Members and foreign associates are elected annually in recognition of their distinguished achievements in original research; election is considered one of the highest honors that can be accorded a scientist or engineer. Currently, as many as 72 members and 18 foreign associates may be elected annually.





We are not talking about just any old college professors, but some of the most distinguished scientists in the world.




So they didn't poll persons with Doctorates in Theology?

:eek:

I'm sure they are a bunch of dummies.

I guess this data proves there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.  The world is filled with intelligent fools.  Given the choice between wisdom and knowledge, I'd chose wisdom hands down. :wink:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8542543 - 06/19/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Just to clarify which individuals were polled:

Quote:

The Royal Society
The Society's statutes state that candidates for election must have made "a substantial contribution to the improvement of natural knowledge, including mathematics, engineering science and medical science".




Quote:

National Academy of Sciences

Members and foreign associates are elected annually in recognition of their distinguished achievements in original research; election is considered one of the highest honors that can be accorded a scientist or engineer. Currently, as many as 72 members and 18 foreign associates may be elected annually.





We are not talking about just any old college professors, but some of the most distinguished scientists in the world.




So they didn't poll persons with Doctorates in Theology?

:eek:

I'm sure they are a bunch of dummies.

I guess this data proves there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.  The world is filled with intelligent fools.  Given the choice between wisdom and knowledge, I'd chose wisdom hands down. :wink:



"wisdom" may have let the cave man know to get in the cave away from the angry water gods in the sky, but I doubt it was much help building fire to keep him warm.

Its all about balance. You have to be creative, and open enough to make those absurd leaps forward, but reasonable enough to to stay impartial and logical.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8542579 - 06/19/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, some online tests are actually pretty good, and I'll give this one a go when I get a chance. But what I meant to say was
Quote:

IQ tests - proper, professionally administered ones - are actually a lot better than people think.



I've had several done in my childhood and adolescence, and I was quite impressed with how well-designed they are.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8542583 - 06/19/08 10:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In a sense.  However, knowledge helped us build the atom bomb; only wisdom can tell us when to use it (if ever).


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8542667 - 06/19/08 10:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

By the summer of 1945 japan had by any reasonable assessment already been defeated. They simply did not have any ability to continue fighting a war, and many withing the government were ready to surrender. There were already talks of surrender taking place before the decision was made not only to drop the bomb on them, but to do it without warning.

It seems wisdom may have failed us.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8542818 - 06/19/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think you've just godwinned the thread.

My understanding is that the Allies saw what a bloody resistance the Japanese put up over the invasion of Iwo Jima (and maybe Okinawa?), as in, civilians being supplied with hand grenades so they can commit suicide in a way that makes things very difficult for the Allied soldiers.

In other words, even if the Japanese government surrendered, the population wouldn't, and millions would die if the Allies invaded the main islands. Something was needed to break the spirit of the Japanese people.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8543411 - 06/20/08 04:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I guess this has become a bit off topic.....
Yes you are correct, the japanese people were prepared to give up everything in order to stop our invasion. They feared that we would permanently remove their emperor and were willing to fight to the end to protect him. However with the ability to continue to fight a war of any kind gone, and talks of surrender on the table why would we need to invade the mainland?

It seems like an ignorant decision to me....I wonder how religious those who decided to drop the bomb were.:grin: (Ah ha! That last part was a bit absurd, but it does bring the topic back around).


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8543431 - 06/20/08 05:09 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

However with the ability to continue to fight a war of any kind gone, and talks of surrender on the table why would we need to invade the mainland?




That's a good point. I hadn't thought about it like that.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8543516 - 06/20/08 07:09 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

<<<<Guilty

:smirk:I just looked up godwinned...lol, so true.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8543823 - 06/20/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

All views of god are wrong, god is the viewer in every being

Intelligence and wisdom are two very different things, the intelligent want to know know the truth, the wise live it, in knowingness not knowingless!

Obviously they will use different parts of they're brain, you think enlightened monks can work out complex mathematical equations? No. Can they dissolve into & know the universe intimately? Yes.

The only reason people don't believe in god is because they're so stuck on they're external dream they cant see where they are looking from, you are god!

:peace:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8543834 - 06/20/08 09:53 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I guess this data proves there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.




This presumes that believing in God is wise.  If God does not exist, then belief in God is delusional.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8543842 - 06/20/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

I guess this data proves there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.




This presumes that believing in God is wise.  If God does not exist, then belief in God is delusional.




All belief is delusional :rose:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chronic7]
    #8543859 - 06/20/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Delusion
A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence.




You are incorrect.  The only way that all beliefs could be delusional is if there was invalidating evidence against everything.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chronic7]
    #8543911 - 06/20/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
All views of god are wrong, god is the viewer in every being




huh....so is everyone wrong except you? Stating that "god is the viewer in every being" seems to be a view itself. And of course if god is the viewer in every being, then all the great many views of god must be gods views. However if all of those views are wrong would that not make god wrong?Or have I misunderstood?
Quote:


Intelligence and wisdom are two very different things, the intelligent want to know know the truth, the wise live it, in knowingness not knowingless!




Main Entry: in·tel·li·gence - 1 a (1): the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2): the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)


Main Entry: wis·dom - 1a: accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : knowledge
b: ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : insight c: good sense : judgment d: generally accepted belief

Quote:


Obviously they will use different parts of they're brain, you think enlightened monks can work out complex mathematical equations? No. Can they dissolve into & know the universe intimately? Yes.




Well there is certainly evidence to suggest one could manage to modify they're perception of the world around us by altering the functioning of the central nervous system through concentrated effort.......as will 5g dried of psilocybe cubensis.

Quote:


The only reason people don't believe in god is because they're so stuck on they're external dream they cant see where they are looking from, you are god!:peace:



Or perhaps because no one has ever provided any rational reason to believe in a "god".


:peace:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8543928 - 06/20/08 10:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You may be smarter, but I'm happier!! :grin:

Here is an excerpt from my textbook for the Psychology of Personal Adjustment:


Strong and repeated evidence indicates that the regular practice of religion has beneficial effects in nearly every aspect of social concern and policy. This evidence shows that religious practice protects against social disorder and dysfunction.

Specifically, the available data clearly indicates that religious belief and practice are associated with:

* Higher levels of marital happiness and stability;
* Stronger parent-child relationships;
* Greater educational aspirations and attainment, especially among the poor;
* Higher levels of good work habits;
* Greater longevity and physical health;
* Higher levels of well-being and happiness;
* Higher recovery rates from addictions to alcohol or drugs;
* Higher levels of self-control, self-esteem, and coping skills;
* Higher rates of charitable donations and volunteering; and
* Higher levels of community cohesion and social support for those in need.

The evidence further demonstrates that religious belief and practice are also associated with:

* Lower divorce rates:
* Lower cohabitation rates;
* Lower rates of out-of-wedlock births;
* Lower levels of teen sexual activity;
* Less abuse of alcohol and drugs;
* Lower rates of suicide, depression, and suicidal ideation;
* Lower levels of many infectious diseases;
* Less juvenile crime;
* Less violent crime; and
* Less domestic violence.

No other dimension of life in America-with the exception of stable marriages and families, which in turn are strongly tied to religious practice-does more to promote the well-being and soundness of the nation’s civil society than citizens’ religious observance. As George Washington asserted, the success of the Republic depends on the practice of religion by its citizens. These findings from 21st Century Social Science support his observation.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8543933 - 06/20/08 10:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here's a source on that for ya!


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: mofo]
    #8543940 - 06/20/08 10:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Orgone, your challenge is silly given there are likely more nonbelievers than believers.  Nonetheless, I'll prolly take the test later when I'm in a better frame of mind.

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

zouden said:
Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.



How so? Math is nothing more than a system of symbols and rules used to predict the outcome or formation of various patterns.

The patterns would exist without us, but I dont see how an abstract insight into them would.




I think what you're shooting for here is, math can be used perfectly. Math is a language....nothing more, nothing less. English too, can be used perfectly. Although usually English is used to describe abstract thoughts, so when someone says something has been described perfectly, another person might not view it as such.

Math, like any other language, can also be used creatively. Ever seen a tee shirt that says "Want to..." and with the integral of 2xdx, bounded from 10 to 13. Its a joke meaning 'Want to 69?"





Math is not a language any more than chemistry is a language. 

Math isn't the symbols or whatever and neither is chemistry.


Math is the relationship between the values.  Finding the area under the curve soley by knowing the boundries.  Finding the answers to a polynomial equations.  Finding the amount of ions in a solution from the solute dissolved.


These are very real things and exist independantly of language.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8543956 - 06/20/08 10:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
You may be smarter, but I'm happier!! :grin:

Here is an excerpt from my textbook for the Psychology of Personal Adjustment:


Strong and repeated evidence indicates that the regular practice of religion has beneficial effects in nearly every aspect of social concern and policy. This evidence shows that religious practice protects against social disorder and dysfunction.

Specifically, the available data clearly indicates that religious belief and practice are associated with:

* Higher levels of marital happiness and stability;
* Stronger parent-child relationships;
* Greater educational aspirations and attainment, especially among the poor;
* Higher levels of good work habits;
* Greater longevity and physical health;
* Higher levels of well-being and happiness;
* Higher recovery rates from addictions to alcohol or drugs;
* Higher levels of self-control, self-esteem, and coping skills;
* Higher rates of charitable donations and volunteering; and
* Higher levels of community cohesion and social support for those in need.

The evidence further demonstrates that religious belief and practice are also associated with:

* Lower divorce rates:
* Lower cohabitation rates;
* Lower rates of out-of-wedlock births;
* Lower levels of teen sexual activity;
* Less abuse of alcohol and drugs;
* Lower rates of suicide, depression, and suicidal ideation;
* Lower levels of many infectious diseases;
* Less juvenile crime;
* Less violent crime; and
* Less domestic violence.

No other dimension of life in America-with the exception of stable marriages and families, which in turn are strongly tied to religious practice-does more to promote the well-being and soundness of the nation’s civil society than citizens’ religious observance. As George Washington asserted, the success of the Republic depends on the practice of religion by its citizens. These findings from 21st Century Social Science support his observation.



:yesnod:
Thats wonderful, its a shame the statistical facts dont support such a claim.:shrug:

Its not to surprising though considering some of the reviews its received.

Source: http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=paq.014.0260b


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544030 - 06/20/08 11:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

If religious belief is beneficial, then why are non-religious countries faring so much better than the highly-religious U.S.?

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

The sources used to support The Heritage Foundation's claims are mainly from religious research groups, suggesting bias.  Where are the statistics from non-religious sources?  If you look over the findings presented in the article to which I've linked,  you will see that religiosity is not correlated with any of the benefits touted by The Heritage Foundation, and in fact is associated with negative outcomes.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8544176 - 06/20/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Remember, if you’re headed in the wrong direction, God allows U-turns!

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: QuantumReality]
    #8544198 - 06/20/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You know what, you may be right...

But I still have my beliefs, and you still have yours. The problem isn't who is right and who is wrong. The problem only begins when people start fighting over personal beliefs.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544248 - 06/20/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, for me, the problem begins when religious believers attempt to legislate their beliefs for the rest of the country.  The Heritage Foundation was established to "to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."  (Quoted from their website).

The propaganda regarding the supposed benefits of religious belief was created to justify altering governmental policies regarding the separation of church and state.  After all, if religion is beneficial, then we should legislate it for the good of the nation.  We should teach it in our schools, include it in our treatment of mental illness, protect it from the encroachment of same-sex marriage/rock and roll/free speech, force welfare recipients to attend religious services, etc...

I am not interested in forcing anyone to alter their personal beliefs, though critically questioning one's beliefs would be a huge step in the right direction!  If we all kept our religious beliefs personal, that would be just fine.  (This would include acknowledging that these beliefs are personal opinions, and not the FACTS of the matter, and allowing our children to investigate and form their own personal beliefs.)

As long as believers keep their religion off my body, out of the public school system, and out of the law books, I think they should be allowed to dream up all the comforting fantasies they please.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8544286 - 06/20/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Actually, for me, the problem begins when religious believers attempt to legislate their beliefs for the rest of the country.  The Heritage Foundation was established to "to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."  (Quoted from their website).

The propaganda regarding the supposed benefits of religious belief was created to justify altering governmental policies regarding the separation of church and state.  After all, if religion is beneficial, then we should legislate it for the good of the nation.  We should teach it in our schools, include it in our treatment of mental illness, protect it from the encroachment of same-sex marriage/rock and roll/free speech, force welfare recipients to attend religious services, etc...

I am not interested in forcing anyone to alter their personal beliefs, though critically questioning one's beliefs would be a huge step in the right direction!  If we all kept our religious beliefs personal, that would be just fine.  (This would include acknowledging that these beliefs are personal opinions, and not the FACTS of the matter, and allowing our children to investigate and form their own personal beliefs.)

As long as believers keep their religion off my body, out of the public school system, and out of the law books, I think they should be allowed to dream up all the comforting fantasies they please.




Okay, well I got the information I posted above from my textbook at a community college. i didn't look too hard when I posted a source, I just put the first one that contained the same information as my text, since I can't exactly post my book here.

I'm sorry, my fault. I am a FIRM believer in separation of Church and State, (and separation of anything personal and state for that matter) I fully agree with what you have said, and it's actually what I meant by my statement above. Obviously, I was a little too simplistic...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8544297 - 06/20/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I like to fantasize about Schroedinger's cat....I'd give anything to get in that box.:naughty:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544322 - 06/20/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, unfortunately textbooks not intended for use in public schools are not subjected to the same degree of scrutiny.  Obviously, the author of your text relied upon biased data to make his assertions, and did not bother to verify his sources.  It is crucial to critically examine the data presented in your textbooks for accuracy.  I've found many errors and misrepresentations in my textbooks.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544351 - 06/20/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Actually, for me, the problem begins when religious believers attempt to legislate their beliefs for the rest of the country.  The Heritage Foundation was established to "to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."  (Quoted from their website).

The propaganda regarding the supposed benefits of religious belief was created to justify altering governmental policies regarding the separation of church and state.  After all, if religion is beneficial, then we should legislate it for the good of the nation.  We should teach it in our schools, include it in our treatment of mental illness, protect it from the encroachment of same-sex marriage/rock and roll/free speech, force welfare recipients to attend religious services, etc...

I am not interested in forcing anyone to alter their personal beliefs, though critically questioning one's beliefs would be a huge step in the right direction!  If we all kept our religious beliefs personal, that would be just fine.  (This would include acknowledging that these beliefs are personal opinions, and not the FACTS of the matter, and allowing our children to investigate and form their own personal beliefs.)

As long as believers keep their religion off my body, out of the public school system, and out of the law books, I think they should be allowed to dream up all the comforting fantasies they please.




Okay, well I got the information I posted above from my textbook at a community college. i didn't look too hard when I posted a source, I just put the first one that contained the same information as my text, since I can't exactly post my book here.

I'm sorry, my fault. I am a FIRM believer in separation of Church and State, (and separation of anything personal and state for that matter) I fully agree with what you have said, and it's actually what I meant by my statement above. Obviously, I was a little too simplistic...




It sucks that we cant even trust text books.:mad: Whats next, are meteorologists going to lie to us too?:grin:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8544391 - 06/20/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I like to fantasize about Schroedinger's cat....I'd give anything to get in that box.

Wouldn't we all?:grin:

But seriously what does quantum decoherence have to do with religious belief being proportional to intelligence?;)


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8544442 - 06/20/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
I like to fantasize about Schroedinger's cat....I'd give anything to get in that box.

Wouldn't we all?:grin:

But seriously what does quantum decoherence have to do with religious belief being proportional to intelligence?;)




I wonder how many "religious" people would get that joke......lame as it may have been.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8549689 - 06/22/08 02:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

zouden said:
IQ tests are actually a lot better than people think. And no, online tests don't count.



Do online tests really not count, or are you just too afraid of throwing down the IQ test gauntlet?:smirk:



I finally got time to do it! But thought I didn't do very well, since I screwed up the start before I fully understood the questions. Makes me want to do it again! Anyway.
user: zouden
religion: strongly atheist
IQ per highiqsociety.org website: 130


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8550433 - 06/22/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Few of the wise (in this world), who consider the gospel foolishness, are called.

1Cor1:18-31
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: fivepointer]
    #8550535 - 06/22/08 12:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Who cares what the Bible says. :yawn:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8550624 - 06/22/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I prefer the Koran.:monkeydance:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Icelander]
    #8550939 - 06/22/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I would rather listen to early Cat Stevens.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8551970 - 06/22/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, I did the test.  Bear in mind I'm pretty high, though I don't think it effected me too badly, I did run out of time on the last question... Like Zouden I'd like to do it again, but don't know if that's against the rules or if they use new questions.  Perhaps when sober :tongue:

IQ per Website highiqsociety:  130

Religious Beliefs:  Believe in god, relatively agnostic as to specifics, don't believe in an organized theology really






So the results so far:


Theist:
Me (johnm214)
(agnostic theist- believes god created life, universe);  IQ:  130

mofo user: mofo
religion: Roman Catholic
IQ per highiqsociety.org website: 123

Atheist/Agnostic:

Zouden
Strongly Atheist; IQ 130

blewmeanie
Agnostic at best;  IQ 127


So average Theist (mofo, johnm214):  127 (126.5)
Average Atheist/Agnostic (zouden, blewmeanie):  129 (128.5)


Probably not significant differences so far

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8551995 - 06/22/08 08:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

n=2 for each group - methinks the error bars would be rather large :grin:

Smart people in P&S, no wonder I spend most of my time here


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8551996 - 06/22/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Oh, and orgoneconclusion, for all the shit you talk, you should probably take the test.


We've only got 2 and 2 on theist/atheist so we need more people anyways.  So far we're not statistically signifigant in our differences.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8552262 - 06/22/08 09:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

We'll never get statistical significance unless we force everyone on this board to do the test, otherwise we'll have self-selection bias.

I'm interested in the results but I'm not expecting any major revelations...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8552293 - 06/22/08 09:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, it could be signifigant as to what is actually measured:  The intelligence per that website of individuals who want to take the IQ test as a function of proclaimed theology.  Agreed it doesn't amount to much relevant data as to the question orgone presented

Still interesting, like you say... It would be cool if more people took it.  I was kinda intimidated- the first questions were kinda hard.

Thing was longer than I suspected.

Either way, I think orgoneconclusion should take it since he seems pretty convinced folks who believe in deity's or whatever tend to be foolish

I think there's a bias towards him getting favorable results, as I think mos ton these boards would identify themselves as atheist or agnostic (which I'll take to be atheist for purposes of this: determing whether believe in a deity is corelated with lowered intelligence

I'd imagine folks who take the test also suspect they'll do well, so there's the selection bias, which works in favor of the atheists, I'd guess.

Anyway, would be cool to see if orgone's prediction is wrong- given that this test meets his criteria.  He should definatly take it.


I wonder how accurate this test is though?  Like someone else said earlier, I wonder if they don't try to make you seem smarter than you are to get you're flatered self to pay for a report on your briliance or to pay a membership fee.... Would seem they'd get more cash from flattered people, but maybe it is accurate, I dunno




EDIT:

If anyone wants to take more or propose a better test, this page has some:  http://www.psyonline.nl/en-iq.htm

I don't really know how valid these things are, but they should work at least to rank people relativistically in whatever the thing tests, ideally.

Edited by johnm214 (06/22/08 10:04 PM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8552477 - 06/22/08 10:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The fact that it had general knowledge questions told me that it wasn't a proper IQ test. But I guess it could still be valid, at least for people of a certain education level, as long as they've calibrated the test with results of real IQ tests.

Quote:

as I think most on these boards would identify themselves as atheist or agnostic



I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case when I first started posting here, but that might just be my impression...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8552635 - 06/22/08 11:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Mensa has a test on their site, but I think the biggest problem we are going to run into trying to compare scores is google. Whats to stop anyone from googleing the answers, or retaking the test repeatedly.:shrug:

Its not like the shroomery makes a very good cross section of the general population anyway.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8552858 - 06/23/08 01:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, like I was saying, in a proper IQ test, google shouldn't give you an advantage. They're normally all like the first questions in that online one - I was surprised to see maths and general knowledge in it.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8553516 - 06/23/08 08:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have a puzzle, if anyone want to tackle it. I haven't figured it out yet.

You have a grid 4 across, and 5 down. Here are the numbers.
6318
1973
5849
2443
758?


What number goes where the question mark is? Ive found one underlying patter so far, but I think its only there to throw me off.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8553543 - 06/23/08 08:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This debate is very interesting. but I must bring up a subject close to my heart...

Does intelligence really matter in the grand scheme of things? I have worked very closely with adults who are severely or profoundly mentally retarded. Most of them couldn't even speak, some of them could, but like a 3-4 year old at best. These people are among the happiest, and most pure souls I have ever known. Most of them seem to have never had a malevolent thought in their mind, and can find enjoyment and deep fulfillment from a game of Go Fish, that the likes of us cannot seem to achieve without external interventions like drugs or sex.

What I would give to have such an enjoyable life!! There really is something to the old saying "Ignorance is bliss"...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8553596 - 06/23/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

and.......if everyone was like that our species would have died out long ago. Intelligence if extremely important if we ever plan to cure disease, create a clean energy source, or get off of this death trap of a planet.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8553630 - 06/23/08 08:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That is speculation based on your subjective experience related to things (disease excepted) that our INTELLIGENCE has created a need for. And as far as disease goes, who cares if the average life span was shortened? Once upon a time there were NO cures for many diseases, and there were a lot lees diseases.

I won't deny that your answer is a possible outcome if we were all like that, but conversely you cannot in good conscience deny that there are other possible outcomes as well, and some of them might even be quite pleasant...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8553685 - 06/23/08 09:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thats not speculation, that fact. The mentally handicapped can not take care of themselves, they cant do it now, and they wouldnt have been able to do so at any other time through out history. They can be allot of fun to be around, but thats about it.

I'm not sure what you think is speculative about needing a clean energy source or our planet being a death trap. Care to elaborate?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8553862 - 06/23/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

if everyone was like that our species would have died out long ago.
^^That is what I was referring to as speculation.

If it weren't for our intelligence creating technologies that require it, the need for a clean energy source would not exist. As far as this planet being a death trap, Who made it that way? And How?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8553906 - 06/23/08 10:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
if everyone was like that our species would have died out long ago.
^^That is what I was referring to as speculation.
If it weren't for our intelligence creating technologies that require it, the need for a clean energy source would not exist.




No I'm sure they would have been eaten by a bear, or died of pneumonia from not being able to start a fire long thousands of years ago. Dont be naive.


Quote:


As far as this planet being a death trap, Who made it that way? And How?






Periodically volcanoes erupt, meteors strike, and ice covers the globe. If we dont get off of this planet at some point we will all die.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8553931 - 06/23/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have worked very closely with adults who are severely or profoundly mentally retarded... These people are among the happiest

This is silly. If someone was taking care of my every need and want, I'd be really happy too. :rolleyes:


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #8554198 - 06/23/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I have worked very closely with adults who are severely or profoundly mentally retarded... These people are among the happiest

This is silly. If someone was taking care of my every need and want, I'd be really happy too. :rolleyes:





So living in a home with only members of the same sex, being looked down upon and made fun of on the few instances when you are ALLOWED to travel outside of a restrictive home environment, having someone who takes care of you means you are told when to eat, drink, sleep, and even use the bathroom (which is also supervised), being often mistreated by employees who don't care about you, and family that rarely if ever visit sounds like a good time to you? Roll your eyes all you want, but head over to the the nearest independent care facility and get a more accurate picture of what you are making judgements about...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8554241 - 06/23/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I would agree with you, the group home policy's we have in this country are horrible. They deserve so much better.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8554503 - 06/23/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So living in a home with only members of the same sex, being looked down upon and made fun of on the few instances when you are ALLOWED to travel outside of a restrictive home environment, having someone who takes care of you means you are told when to eat, drink, sleep, and even use the bathroom (which is also supervised), being often mistreated by employees who don't care about you, and family that rarely if ever visit sounds like a good time to you?

If I had the intellectual capacity of a parsnip, sure. Why not?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8554854 - 06/23/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I have worked very closely with adults who are severely or profoundly mentally retarded. Most of them couldn't even speak, some of them could, but like a 3-4 year old at best.




Are you seriously arguing that humankind would not be extinct if our mental capacity as a species had never exceeded the level of a 3-year-old?  :confused:

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8555034 - 06/23/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
Does intelligence really matter in the grand scheme of things?



Well, it's what separates us from the animals. Everything we've accomplished can be attributed to our intelligence. Are you saying that nothing we've accomplished matters in the grand scheme of things?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8555065 - 06/23/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I suppose that depends upon what comprises the "grand scheme of things."  :shrug:

If it is all about being as happy and simple as possible, then intelligence is a handicap.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8555111 - 06/23/08 04:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Fight evolution! Return to the trees!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8555153 - 06/23/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Evolution is an alien conspiracy to make humankind miserable.  They seeded us with their own DNA, forcing our brains to grow the malignant tumor we call a "neocortex."  The cancerous growth has infected us with worry, critical analysis, doubt, atheism, and a host of other ills.

I say we take up heavy drinking and drug use, and see if we can kill off the cells of this tumor!  Are you with me?

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8555957 - 06/23/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The next growth of our brain will fix all this. The billy bob cortex.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8556994 - 06/24/08 02:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I say we take up heavy drinking and drug use, and see if we can kill off the cells of this tumor!  Are you with me?



Way ahead of you  :alc:  :mushroomgrow:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence *DELETED* [Re: zouden]
    #8557213 - 06/24/08 04:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: delete



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8557219 - 06/24/08 04:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Screenshot?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8557227 - 06/24/08 04:49 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I see you failed the main thread point.

'Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence'

The inverse is not necessarily true.

Not believing in God is not indicative of intelligence.

See if you can discern the difference.


--------------------

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8557235 - 06/24/08 04:52 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Mod Edit: flames and name-calling are against the rules in P&S. Read the rules during your ban time. You can find them here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4526664#Post4526664

Edited by Diploid (06/24/08 11:12 AM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8557291 - 06/24/08 05:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)



Crasher: Theist (in what capacity is irrelevant)
Age: 24
Taken at: 27 hours without sleep.


I'd do better tomorrow.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Crasher]
    #8557334 - 06/24/08 06:17 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

FYI, I did the test again to see whether I'd do better "now that I understand the first question" or whether I'd do abnormally well because I've done the test already.

I got 131, only one point higher than before. That's pretty good reproducibility, considering!
Though it had some question on an author I'd never heard of, but I got the impression he writes about the American frontier which is a pretty strong cultural bias - I still think it would be better if it had no general knowledge.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8557370 - 06/24/08 06:49 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, if any of you have actually taken an authentic IQ test, these are vastly different. Its better than most online IQ tests I've seen, but still way different.


--------------------
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8557379 - 06/24/08 07:00 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I remember when I had a proper one done, (I was 14 or so) it was done by a psychologist who was constantly making notes as I was doing it, presumably recording the way I undertook each problem. So a lot more goes into it than could ever be done online.
FWIW I got 128, not sure if it's supposed to go up with age or not, but 130 is in the right ballpark at least


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8557391 - 06/24/08 07:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Afroshroomerican said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
What if the material presented is factual?




Same deal; this is obviously a flame post.

However, there are plenty of scientists/linguists that believe in Something--God or otherwise.

I'm guessing Issac Newton and Einstein were idiots, according to this "fact".

Maybe this selection of individuals are pompous intellectuals who feel that they are above a higher power because of their intelligence? 

Let's not forget that everyone who has a XYZ IQ isn't running to get it tested/validated by some committee or join a group.




Einstein most definitely did not believe in God. This is a common mistake made by one out of context quote. He later elaborated that he saw no evidence for the judeo-christian god, but yet he, and others, viewed him(self) as a "religious" man.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: dill705]
    #8557399 - 06/24/08 07:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Einstein most definitely did not believe in God.



Please, not this again. I agree with you, but I have a hard time proving it because there are SO many quotes from Einstein that are really ambiguous. He really left a mess behind on this issue. For every quote you can find where Einstein says he doesn't believe in God, there'll be one where he talks about "God" but it's possibly a metaphor for nature, and sometimes it's definitely a metaphor for nature while other times it isn't, and then there's the quote about "science without religion is lame" - now is he talking about spirituality or actual theistic religion?
I'm pretty sick of this debate, can you tell?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8557404 - 06/24/08 07:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Einstein believed what he believed. Leave it at that.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8557409 - 06/24/08 07:20 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Afroshroomerican said:

2) IMO Atheism is as unfounded as everyone following an organized religion.  IF we want to get logical then let's consider:  What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?






Let us follow this train of thought to it's conclusion...
Given that the universe can't simply just be, it must have been created, probably by God. Given that God created the universe, God exists. Given that God exists, he must have been created, because he can't simply just be. God apparently either defies your logic of existence being necessitated by a creator, or this arguement goes on forever where you end up with an infinite number of creators, with absolutely no discernable point of origin.

Hence, I believe you are wrong in your assumption that what exists must have been created. Somewhere along the line, it just is.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: dill705]
    #8557420 - 06/24/08 07:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's turtles all the way down.



--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8557437 - 06/24/08 07:37 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Holy shit, that's quite the stack of turtles!


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8557531 - 06/24/08 08:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Well, I see OrgoneConclusion isn't going to post his IQ like a hypocrit, I see a few religious have posted their IQ test results, and they scored well:thumbup:

Here's mine:
Chemy
Atheist
Score-79

Yes add an atheist at IQ of 79:grin:




It's ok Chemy, those things are so biased. There is a reason they put a moratorium on IQ testing in public schools in the 70's. We all know you're a genius....

Oh, and you can put me down for 124. I don't know what to put me under though. I don't have a "religion", but I believe in God, and some other spiritual concepts.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8557547 - 06/24/08 08:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Is dirty hippie a category. :grin: Which hippie is this anyway, I can never tell.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8557579 - 06/24/08 08:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm Jane. Dick will probably never return here, he embarrassed himself here pretty thoroughly awhile ago...

It's a shame though. He is an atheistic Buddhist, and would have plenty of intelligent stuff to add to these wonderful debates.:(


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8557603 - 06/24/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Atheist Buddhist FTW :thumbup:
We really should all get together and declare war on something.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8557982 - 06/24/08 11:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I see you failed the main thread point.

'Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence'

The inverse is not necessarily true.

Not believing in God is not indicative of intelligence.

See if you can discern the difference.





He said you were a hypocrite, he didn't say what you claim he expressed.


Since you made the challenge that you'd put skeptics vs religious up against each other in a spatial reasoning/logic test, then people took you up on the offer with what appears to meet your criteria, and you've yet to take the test yourself- I think that can be seen as somewhat disingenuous.

The test mentioned seems to cover the areas you wish, with the inclusion of a small, maybe 1/5 or so, section on actual knowledge, though its unknown how or if this section is scored.

So do you accept this test?

If not, what is your test that you were refering to in your previous post?

I think you should take the one we've allready got scores for though, given you seem to have strong opinions on the relationship between folks reasoning and belief systems.

I've even posted some other test available online if you want to choose one to your liking.

At least on the shroomery, which is the sample you yourself chose, their doesn't seem to be a signifigant difference thus far between theists and non.

Correct me where I'm wrong, and feel free to point us to your test.


Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Write to the author of the article.

Anyway you want to look at it no five faith believers here will accept the challenge against the best P&S skeptic minds.

Argue that!


Swami Challenges proposed to date: 63.

Swami Challenges accepted: 1

Swami Challenges reneged on: 1 (Yay Shroomism! - service-to-others liar and cheater.)




If we don't have that number yet, we're close, at least 4.

So what's the test?

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8558201 - 06/24/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think a few questions are left unanswered in this thread.

Pointing to an academic subset of society and extrapolating the results to include the whole of society is a flawed and misleading methodology.  Moreover, as Wikipedia points out:

Quote:

Increasingly secular beliefs have been steadily on the rise in many nations. An increasing acceptance of a secular worldview, combined with efforts to prevent "religious" beliefs from influencing society and government policy, may have led to a corresponding decline in religious belief, especially of more traditional forms.





Then, as has been mentioned, I.Q. is a slippery subject; its meaning and value moreso:

Quote:

Would Van Gogh have passed an intelligence test,or even Einstein?  IQ tests set limited horizons of expectations and create conformist tables to compare unlike with unlike.  If someone has an intuitive knack like Einstein or has genius that is not measured by testing,they might be dismissed as unintelligent or mad or insane,as many eccentrics have been,when in fact they are just non-conformist and radical.  Any IQ test attempts to straight-jacket a person into society's ideas of what constitutes ability,which may not be the apex that they think it is.  For instance the so-called great Universities of Cambridge and Oxford turn out academically sound people who have no problem believing in a deity as artificer of the universe that they understand the physics of.  How intelligent is it to accept this as a literal truth?  Likewise MENSA members  can be socially  inept people that may be able to solve complex problems but can't even use common sense.  Sinclair's C5 comes to mind.  They may be able to do mathematical calculation,but understand nothing of philosophical implications of what they calculate.




http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/iotm/iotm36.rtf ; (safe file as far as I know)

Academics are not necessarily more intelligent than a truck driver. A better population study would be the high intelligence quotients with lower educational levels among the general population.  Test them for religious belief and factor that into the study.

Sidenote:  A cursory calcuation of the statistics of the various forums reveals this one has the highest number of replies per thread.  L-o-n-g debates signifying ___________.

Enjoy! :laugh:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8558213 - 06/24/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

John, what evidence can you produce that OC hasn't already taken the test?


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8558280 - 06/24/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

None, but that really isn't the point. 

He said he'd put the five best skeptics vs the five best religious folks against each other.  He didn't say he'd take the test, but I think he should given his proclamations of the superiority of his class.  We also have half as many atheist results, so he'll help get our numbers better.

As you've addressed partly in your prior post the results won't measure what the thread is about, but it will compare the results of those who felt like taking the test with their ideology, and that's a start.


I'd hope there is no difference, but we'll see.




Results thus far:  p value:  .28; conclusion:  No difference thus far


I've not included chemy's score cuz I don't know if he was telling the truth.  He was upset and apparently upset in favor of the side his score would hurt, so I don't know if it'd be fair to include his score untill he confirms its accurate.  It also favors my side of the argument, so I'll not include it for that reason also.

Theist:
Me (johnm214)
(agnostic theist- believes god created life, universe);  IQ:  130

mofo user: mofo
religion: Roman Catholic
IQ per highiqsociety.org website: 123

crasher  (theist)
IQ:  118 (On little sleep)

thehappiehippies (theist, no religion)
IQ:  124



Atheist/Agnostic:

Zouden
Strongly Atheist; IQ 130

blewmeanie
Agnostic at best;  IQ 127


So average Theist (mofo, johnm214):  124 (123.8)
Average Atheist/Agnostic (zouden, blewmeanie):  129 (128.5)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8558357 - 06/24/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

lol here is a fun game, go and retake the test answering the questions as fast as possible, and completely at random.
:ilold:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8558441 - 06/24/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, unfortunately textbooks not intended for use in public schools are not subjected to the same degree of scrutiny.  Obviously, the author of your text relied upon biased data to make his assertions, and did not bother to verify his sources.  It is crucial to critically examine the data presented in your textbooks for accuracy.  I've found many errors and misrepresentations in my textbooks.




OMG!! I can't believe I missed this statement before now! That is not true at all. Public school textbooks are FULL of mistakes! Anyone who has gone to a public high school and then taken a single college course in American History can attest to that. If you aren't aware of the horrible lies they print in public school textbooks, you should check out Lies My Teacher Told Me and get yourself informed about "the degree of scrutiny" that is used in approving information put into public school textbooks.

BTW the textbook I was referring to is a college textbook called Human Development and the author John W. Santrock Ph.D has written over 100 textbooks used in Colleges around the world in the various areas of psychology and is widely recognized as an productive and informative contributer to the field of clinical and counseling psychology.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8558539 - 06/24/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Please, not this again. I agree with you, but I have a hard time proving it because there are SO many quotes from Einstein that are really ambiguous. He really left a mess behind on this issue. For every quote you can find where Einstein says he doesn't believe in God, there'll be one where he talks about "God" but it's possibly a metaphor for nature, and sometimes it's definitely a metaphor for nature while other times it isn't, and then there's the quote about "science without religion is lame" - now is he talking about spirituality or actual theistic religion?
I'm pretty sick of this debate, can you tell?




Exactly; the word "g*d" is completely devoid of any consensual meaning and entirely incapable of conveying any idea. For as brilliant as Einstein was, he did not realize this. :craven:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8558599 - 06/24/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So I broke down and took the High IQ society test, I scored 140. That's a lot higher then it was when I took a test back in 2000.

A person's IQ is the supposed to represent the capacity for knowledge they have isn't it? And isn't that something that wouldn't change with age? The capacity is either there or it isn't. This is why I am skeptical of IQ tests...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
    #8558614 - 06/24/08 02:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Since you made the challenge that you'd put skeptics vs religious up against each other in a spatial reasoning/logic test, then people took you up on the offer with what appears to meet your criteria




1. I did take the test, but didn't save the screenshot so any number I post would be contested.

2. There are a large number of random memory pattern type questions and a few knowledge-based questions which tells us little-to-nothing on reasoning ability.

3. No one put up the money.

As a world-class backgammon player, I find it amusing when I visit a friend and they offer to play me 'for fun'. Nope, cash only bitches!


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/24/08 03:22 PM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8558624 - 06/24/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So I broke down and took the High IQ society test, I scored 140.

This is why I am skeptical of IQ tests...




Yay skeptics! :cheer:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8558640 - 06/24/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, unfortunately textbooks not intended for use in public schools are not subjected to the same degree of scrutiny.  Obviously, the author of your text relied upon biased data to make his assertions, and did not bother to verify his sources.  It is crucial to critically examine the data presented in your textbooks for accuracy.  I've found many errors and misrepresentations in my textbooks.




OMG!! I can't believe I missed this statement before now! That is not true at all. Public school textbooks are FULL of mistakes! Anyone who has gone to a public high school and then taken a single college course in American History can attest to that. If you aren't aware of the horrible lies they print in public school textbooks, you should check out Lies My Teacher Told Me and get yourself informed about "the degree of scrutiny" that is used in approving information put into public school textbooks.




You may be right.  I wouldn't know, as I dropped out of public school in 2nd grade.  :shrug:

Quote:

BTW the textbook I was referring to is a college textbook called Human Development and the author John W. Santrock Ph.D has written over 100 textbooks used in Colleges around the world in the various areas of psychology and is widely recognized as an productive and informative contributer to the field of clinical and counseling psychology.




Too bad he doesn't understand the basic premise of checking the statistics you present as evidence for your claims.  I've read many such statements, backed up by unreliable sources & non-scientific studies, presented as though they actually support the author's claims.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Veritas]
    #8558676 - 06/24/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You may be right.  I wouldn't know, as I dropped out of public school in 2nd grade. 




But you look so cute in this photo:



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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8558736 - 06/24/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I do love ellie may


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8559027 - 06/24/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheHappieHippies said:
A person's IQ is the supposed to represent the capacity for knowledge they have isn't it? And isn't that something that wouldn't change with age? The capacity is either there or it isn't. This is why I am skeptical of IQ tests...





No, an IQ test suposedly measures intelligence. What this word "intelligence" means has often been debated by scholars, but there is a standardized IQ test. It measures spatial, temporal, linguistic and other such characteristics.

When I took mine in my first therapy session, it took three hours and alot of writing on the therapists part. I was timed in some sections. I hade to read make believe words and say them aloud according to the rules of english, I had to fill in missing letters in words, I had to put a series of pictures in order of events (which was very hard, especially being timed). Those are the things I remember best.

Age can play a fact in your score, as can drug use, depression, stress, and a whole host of other things. None of these will have a huge impact, perhaps +/- 3-8, but 8 is a pretty large jump.

I was 14 at the time and scored a 123. My therapist informed me that I was in the top 7% of scores in the U.S.

I am an atheist.

Never believe any internet IQ test.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: dill705]
    #8561454 - 06/25/08 07:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

On this High IQ society test, there were a few questions about dead white guys, world history, and economics, how is my ability to have gained an education that happened to tell me about these things related to my intelligence?

What if you were born in a remote cabin in the woods, and spent your entire life away from human society, living only to survive with your immediate family? What if you happened to also be a genius? You would have never heard of such people who were named on my test like B.F. Skinner, Freud, Darwin or which country has the most people? That would most certainly have affected your score, but you'd still be a genius.

I think maybe the higher scores might be accurate, but that the lower scores might be horribly wrong.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8561481 - 06/25/08 07:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Its less of an IQ test, and more of a marketing ploy to get you to buy a membership. Nothing like some good ol' prostitution for your ego. I have an accurate test if you really want to take one, so I'm starting a new thread.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8599331 - 07/06/08 12:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was browsing around tonight and found this apropos story some of you might enjoy reading:

--

High IQ turns academics into atheists

12 June 2008

By Rebecca Attwood

Intelligence is a predictor of religious scepticism, a professor has argued. Rebecca Attwood reports

Belief in God is much lower among academics than among the general population because scholars have higher IQs, a controversial academic claimed this week.

In a forthcoming paper for the journal Intelligence, Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, will argue that there is a strong correlation between high IQ and lack of religious belief and that average intelligence predicts atheism rates across 137 countries.

In the paper, Professor Lynn - who has previously caused controversy with research linking intelligence to race and sex - says evidence points to lower proportions of people holding religious beliefs among "intellectual elites".

The paper - which was co-written with John Harvey, who does not report a university affiliation, and Helmuth Nyborg, of the University of Aarhus, Denmark - cites studies including a 1990s survey that found that only 7 per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God. A survey of fellows of the Royal Society found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God at a time when a poll reported that 68.5 per cent of the general UK population were believers.

Professor Lynn told Times Higher Education: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

He said that most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many began to have doubts and became agnostics.

He added that most Western countries had seen a decline of religious belief in the 20th century at the same time as their populations had become more intelligent.

Andy Wells, senior lecturer in psychology at the London School of Economics, said the existence of a correlation between IQ and religiosity did not mean there was a causal relationship between the two.

Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck, University of London, said that any examination of the decline of religious belief needed to take into account a wide and complex range of social, economic and historical factors.

He added: "Linking religious belief and intelligence in this way could reflect a dangerous trend, developing a simplistic characterisation of religion as primitive, which - while we are trying to deal with very complex issues of religious and cultural pluralism - is perhaps not the most helpful response."

Alistair McFadyen, senior lecturer in Christian theology at the University of Leeds, said that Professor Lynn's arguments appeared to have "a slight tinge of intellectual elitism and Western cultural imperialism as well as an antireligious sentiment".

David Hardman, principal lecturer in learning development at London Metropolitan University, said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt intuitions."

rebecca.attwood@tsleducation.com

Times Higher Education


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #8599385 - 07/06/08 12:57 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alistair McFadyen, senior lecturer in Christian theology at the University of Leeds, said that Professor Lynn's arguments appeared to have "a slight tinge of intellectual elitism and Western cultural imperialism as well as an antireligious sentiment".



Not if the comments are based on evidence. It's like calling someone sexist if they point out that men have better spatial skills than women.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8599414 - 07/06/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Is it sexist to say that men have better pissial skills than women....?

:tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
    #8602505 - 07/06/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This was on the yahoo main page last month.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8623412 - 07/11/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

One thing that I know for certain is that Einstein did not believe in a creator. He was a pantheist and referred to the universe as God, not God as a being. :sorry:  Einstein was an atheist...


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8624143 - 07/12/08 01:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:shitstorm:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8626490 - 07/12/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
One thing that I know for certain is that Einstein did not believe in a creator. He was a pantheist and referred to the universe as God, not God as a being. :sorry:  Einstein was an atheist...




I don't think that qualifies as atheism does it? Whether or not his understanding of God was as a being or not, he still believed in the concept of God. That would seem to be contrary to believing there is no God right?

If I am wrong, then please explain...


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8626595 - 07/12/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism" - Richard Dawkins

wyldeman is right, Einstein was a pantheist, and he received a huge amount of criticism for it, particularly from the Jewish community.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8626610 - 07/12/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Richard Dawkins is an ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science writer; he isn't a philosopher or a theologian--and it shows.

He can talk about evolutionary biology and make sense.  When he talks about religion, he's out of his field.  :shrug:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8626617 - 07/12/08 06:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You're utterly wrong, using the word "God" doesn't result in theism. Einstein did just that, he uses the word God as a functionality of his creative penmanship, not as a basis for a cosmic father. Not only does he reject religion, he rejects the idea of a personal god. He never out of a poetic context referrers to god in even a deistic light. For Einstein, the word god was synonymous with the universe.

On top of that, Einstein viewed himself as a "free thinker" whatever that means outside of a glance, within the context of his time, it meant atheism(or something very close to it).

"I do not believe in a personal god"
He didn't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent,  omnibenevolent being. That I would conclude, is a lack of belief in God or gods. Whether or not he was an agnostic-atheist, an agnostic-deist, or outright an agnostic, during his time period he was a practical atheist. He was definitely not a theist and did not "believe in the concept of god"...

Pantheism

Atheism

Theism

Albert Einstein's Religious views


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8626621 - 07/12/08 06:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Erm, then who's not out of their field when it comes to religion? Deepak Chopra? The Archbishop of Canterbury? Buddha himself?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8626663 - 07/12/08 07:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Richard Dawkins is an ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science writer; he isn't a philosopher or a theologian--and it shows.

He can talk about evolutionary biology and make sense.  When he talks about religion, he's out of his field.  :shrug:




What makes you think that anyone(philosopher/theologian) has absolute authority on anything? There is no absolute truth, I actually believe that being an evolutionary biologist, Dawkins has the more "authoritative" view on the ontological arguments, seeing the evidence for himself first hand.

Who said the existence of god was outside the realm of science anyways? Whoever did, they're wrong, the question of god is fully admissible into scientific hypothesis(with malicious results:evil:). Evolution is a destructor of holy books.

Strictly speaking of evidence, when the question of god arrives to Dawkins, he is an expert if the question is biologically related. Other arguments Dawkins brings up are just as philosophically valid. My point is, you don't have to be an expert in anything to argue the existence of god (some intellect required though). The fact that Dawkins is a lifelong biologist, is a supplement to his argument, not a detriment. This kind of ad hominem is all too common these days...


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8626755 - 07/12/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'll answer this, once.  For those that aren't aware I'm not into :duel:  or tendencious polemic.

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Richard Dawkins is an ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science writer; he isn't a philosopher or a theologian--and it shows.

He can talk about evolutionary biology and make sense.  When he talks about religion, he's out of his field.  :shrug:




What makes you think that anyone(philosopher/theologian) has absolute authority on anything?




Didn't say that, however, arguing outside your field usually ladles comedy upon error.  Absolute authority?  Hell, his theology is 3rd grade pap.  His science is much better (anything would be).  Needless to say, some philosophers and theologians make much better arguments than he does with half their brain asleep.  I don't need to name names, you post in the philosophy forum--you should already know them.

Quote:

There is no absolute truth, I actually believe that being an evolutionary biologist, Dawkins has the more "authoritative" view on the ontological arguments, seeing the evidence for himself first hand.




Some truths are axiomatic, or self-evidently, true, meaning they are absolute.  Whatever you believe has no bearing on it unless you wish to fall back into arguments from incredulity.

Quote:

Who said the existence of god was outside the realm of science anyways?




If God is immaterial, then studying material things will only get you so far.  This is why there is philosophy, which subsumes simple science swallowing it whole.

Quote:

Whoever did, they're wrong, the question of god is fully admissible into scientific hypothesis(with malicious results:evil:).




Completely incorrect.  I'll leave others to point out why.  If they can't, you're on your own.  :shrug:

Quote:

Evolution is a destructor of holy books.




If you say so.

Quote:

Strictly speaking of evidence, when the question of god arrives to Dawkins, he is an expert if the question is biologically related. Other arguments Dawkins brings up are just as philosophically valid. My point is, you don't have to be an expert in anything to argue the existence of god (some intellect required though). The fact that Dawkins is a lifelong biologist, is a supplement to his argument, not a detriment. This kind of ad hominem is all too common these days...




Yes yes, I am quite sure.

Dawkins is a child when it comes to philosophy OR theology and he isn't knowledgeable enough to tie his shoes.  I'm sorry if the exposure upsets you.

:shrug:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8626835 - 07/12/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I quote this:
Quote:

"Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism"



Can you tell me what is incorrect in this sentence? Or are you just using it as an excuse for an ad hominem attack?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8626919 - 07/12/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Some truths are axiomatic, or self-evidently, true, meaning they are absolute.  Whatever you believe has no bearing on it unless you wish to fall back into arguments from incredulity.



Science is in the business of the pursuit of knowledge, truth comes as an incidence. A scientist doesn't necessarily believe in an absolute truth of the universe, that would be counterproductive. A philosopher arguing the existence of god has to induce an absolute truth at some point. Puh-lease theologians aren't necessary, they are essentially ethicists making bold ontological assumptions. That's not my opinion that's a FACT!

Very interesting are these axiomatic truths you speak of :strokebeard: I don't know much about them...

Is Dawkins really stepping out of his field? Is he not a doctor of philosophy? His methods differ in credibility because he relies on evidence. That's all I'm saying.

Quote:

Needless to say, some philosophers and theologians make much better arguments than he does with half their brain asleep.  I don't need to name names, you post in the philosophy forum--you should already know them.




I don't know specifically the names of those your talking about, but I haven't heard any particularly strong arguments for the existence god myself. I have though found many powerful arguments against the Judeo-Christian god of Abraham. If you want to enlighten me on some of them I'm open to discussion...(burden of proof:))

Quote:

If God is immaterial, then studying material things will only get you so far.  This is why there is philosophy, which subsumes simple science swallowing it whole.




The assumption that god is immaterial is begging the question. How are you to argue an attribute of a character that may or may not exist?? The existence of god explained by natural means comes up negative so far...if he does exist there is no way to obtain knowledge in favor of his existence, so we rely on probabilities to carry us to the logical assumption.


Quote:


   
Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Whoever did, they're wrong, the question of god is fully admissible into scientific hypothesis(with malicious results).




Quote:


Completely incorrect.  I'll leave others to point out why.  If they can't, you're on your own. 




So you're saying that if scientific proof of God was obtained (actual definitive proof of his existence), theists would in unison say: "oh well, God is outside of science" I think not! They would be all over it! There is no reason to believe something exists if there is no evidence that it exists - PERIOD. Explain it to me if I am wrong.

Science is philosophy, and it's the only way toward truth. Theology is a perverse version of philosophy with unnecessary assumptions and false premises among a bed of logical truths.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8626920 - 07/12/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's not an ad hominem attack to point out the weakness in an opponent's opinion.  If I were being precise I should have said his ideas were puerile.  However, I doubt if that would make his fans any less rabid.

The difference is axiomatic in the definitions:

Quote:

Pantheism: The idea that all things are both a manifestation or revelation of God and a part of God at the same time. Pantheism was a common attitude in the early societies of Egypt, India, and Greece — the term derives from the Greek pan meaning "all" and theos meaning "deity." It later became a significant part of the Christian faith.
William Wordsworth and Ralph Waldo Emerson are among the many writers who have expressed the pantheistic attitude in their works.




Quote:

Atheism:
  • 1.
    a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
    b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

  • 2. Godlessness; immorality.





The thrust of Dawkins' argument(s) is that there is no personal deity to know or believe.  In this he conflates all beliefs under one umbrella couching them in equivocation so as to escape tight logic and philosophical examination.  A biological example would be if a philosopher or theologian said DNA is sexed up RNA.  In some circles, less inclined to tendencious polemic (wherever they are), they would be laughed out of the room.  Here, I suppose we would give them sanctuary if it helped save Dawkins from the embarrassment he deserves.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8626956 - 07/12/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I know what pantheism is, you don't need to post a definition. Have you actually read the God Delusion? Right at the start he anticipates all the criticisms you've levelled at him. And if you can find an example of an argument in favour of god by a "proper theologian" (even one made with half their brain asleep) that's better than anything Dawkins has written, I'd like to see it.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8626959 - 07/12/08 08:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Is Dawkins really stepping out of his field? Is he not a doctor of philosophy?




Last reply, not because I am not slightly interested in this topic, but simply because I find other things more interesting, like mushrooms for example.  (shouldn't be too surprising given the fact this is a mushroom message board).  :smile:

As far as I know, Richard Dawkins has a Doctorate of Science degree.  That isn't philosophy.  You hear a lot of things tossed about on the Internet and this is one of them.  Sadly, it isn't true.

http://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/ceremonies/congregation/dawkins_richard.pdf

Read his name and his title after opening the link.^

Dawkins' Biography

That's really all I have to say, for now.

Thanks for the chat.

*edit

If you check Dawkins' CV, you'll see his degrees in D.Litt. or Litt. D. are honorary.  His education in philosophy?  Nil, and it shows.

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/CV.shtml

Edited by Senor_Hongos (07/12/08 09:05 PM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8626967 - 07/12/08 08:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

He has a philosophy doctorate, a science doctorate, and an arts master, which is considerably more than most theologians.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8627008 - 07/12/08 08:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Listen up folks, unless you have a degree in philosophy from here on out you will not be permitted to discuss philosophy. We cant have a bunch of automaths running around all willy nilly like thinking for, and educating themselves. What you think about, and the way that you do it must be directed by recognized authorities.

But boss what about william blake, and karl popper?

Shut up you back to work!
All you're base are belong to us!
That is all.
:rolleyes:


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8627224 - 07/12/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
One thing that I know for certain is that Einstein did not believe in a creator. He was a pantheist and referred to the universe as God, not God as a being. :sorry:  Einstein was an atheist...




Nope :sorry:

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disco Cat said:
Einstein was self-admittedly not an atheist, he believed in a God. As I said in another thread:

Quote:

Einstein distinguished between contemporary religion and God. He was a theist, not atheist, but rejected the pop culture conception of God (referred to as a "personal God" in the OP's article) which he viewed religion as presenting (good vs bad, reward vs punishment). He had a view of God as being all that is, and all that is being one, and himself part of the all.








"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."


"I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the language in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but does not know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws."


"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."


"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds.
That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God..."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's really weird that some of you keep going over this, clearly not liking the reality (as if your personal beliefs are dependent on the corroboration of someone like Einstein), and so will keep arguing against it, as if getting others to agree with you would somehow make you right.




Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
"I do not believe in a personal god"
He didn't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent,  omnibenevolent being. That I would conclude, is a lack of belief in God or gods. Whether or not he was an agnostic-atheist, an agnostic-deist, or outright an agnostic, during his time period he was a practical atheist. He was definitely not a theist and did not "believe in the concept of god"...




You're misconstruing what "personal God" means.


"He didn't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, being"

He did. He didn't believe that there was a separated relationship of creator/creation, but believed that the unification of all things equaled this being.

Einstein was most definitely a theist.

Edited by Disco Cat (07/13/08 03:33 PM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8627258 - 07/12/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The reason this is such a difficult discussion (and it keep reappearing) is because of this quote:
"I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist."
Yet his beliefs (as stated in the other quotes you pasted) are clearly pantheistic.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8627265 - 07/12/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:::This isnt to anyone in particular:::
:banghead:
He's dead, you're never going to be able to ask him.....let it go! Why would anyone possibly care about your opinion of Einstein's beliefs? He said allot of contradictory things throughout his life, thats just the kind of person he was, it should be neither a surprise or a relevant topic to anyone.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
    #8627277 - 07/12/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you! This is why I hate it when Einstein is mentioned in the P&S forum. It's always the same.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8627303 - 07/12/08 10:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There should be an einstein version of the godwinn.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8627352 - 07/12/08 10:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
The reason this is such a difficult discussion (and it keep reappearing) is because of this quote:
"I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist."
Yet his beliefs (as stated in the other quotes you pasted) are clearly pantheistic.




People here appear to interpret pantheism as a form of atheism, which it isn't. Pantheism, as Spinoza meant it, is the God is "all in all" concept, and so therefore you could say that nature = God, but it is also an oversimplification in light of most people's understanding of nature. It's like saying Christianity is atheism, because literal Christianity's view is that God is "all in all," and therefore, if it's nature, it is also God. That leaves out the belief that "all in all" is one being, which is the Spinoza, Christian, and Einstein belief.



"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

— Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215


Note that Einstein first of all does in fact believe in "a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life," but disagrees with the implication that this constitutes a law-giver of reward and punishment, which is what his term "personal God" refers to.

Einstein was unequivocally a theist, whether that sits well with people or not.



Quote:

blewmeanie said:
:::This isnt to anyone in particular:::
:banghead:
He's dead, you're never going to be able to ask him.....let it go! Why would anyone possibly care about your opinion of Einstein's beliefs? He said allot of contradictory things throughout his life, thats just the kind of person he was, it should be neither a surprise or a relevant topic to anyone.




Many people tend to try to use Einstein's belief, whether they got it right or wrong, as backing for their own belief - as if they can't depend on their own intelligence to form their own beliefs.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8627414 - 07/12/08 10:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

zouden said:
The reason this is such a difficult discussion (and it keep reappearing) is because of this quote:
"I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist."
Yet his beliefs (as stated in the other quotes you pasted) are clearly pantheistic.




People here appear to interpret pantheism as a form of atheism, which it isn't. Pantheism, as Spinoza meant it, is the God is "all in all" concept, and so therefore you could say that nature = God, but it is also an oversimplification in light of most people's understanding of nature. It's like saying Christianity is atheism, because literal Christianity's view is that God is "all in all," and therefore, if it's nature, it is also God. That leaves out the belief that "all in all" is one being, which is the Spinoza, Christian, and Einstein belief.



"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

— Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215


Note that Einstein first of all does in fact believe in "a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life," but disagrees with the implication that this constitutes a law-giver of reward and punishment, which is what his term "personal God" refers to.

Einstein is a theist, whether that sits well with people or not.



Quote:

blewmeanie said:
:::This isnt to anyone in particular:::
:banghead:
He's dead, you're never going to be able to ask him.....let it go! Why would anyone possibly care about your opinion of Einstein's beliefs? He said allot of contradictory things throughout his life, thats just the kind of person he was, it should be neither a surprise or a relevant topic to anyone.




Many people tend to try to use Einstein's belief, whether they got it right or wrong, as backing for their own belief - as if they can't depend on their own intelligence to form their own beliefs.




I think the biggest problem with any discussion attempting to label someones beliefs is the lack of any kind of consensus on definition. In many ways the term "god" really isnt accurate or relevant as a concept. I believe some of us have outgrown the term, yet it still gets tossed around because nothing else suitable exists to take its place.

For example if someones idea of "god" involves a conscious creator with a personality, and a will independent of anything else then anyone deviating from that definition could logically be considered an atheist. However if your definition of god has no specific form or ideal to identify with than anyone who didnt directly deny the existence of any sort of deity could still accurately be called a theist from your perspective.

Its seems to me that identifying and labeling Einstein, or anyone else's beliefs is more a problem of semantics than theology.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8628609 - 07/13/08 09:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:

People here appear to interpret pantheism as a form of atheism, which it isn't. Pantheism, as Spinoza meant it, is the God is "all in all" concept, and so therefore you could say that nature = God, but it is also an oversimplification in light of most people's understanding of nature. It's like saying Christianity is atheism, because literal Christianity's view is that God is "all in all," and therefore, if it's nature, it is also God. That leaves out the belief that "all in all" is one being, which is the Spinoza, Christian, and Einstein belief.




Exactly, which is why if you allow yourself to be led around by the nose by an atheistic asshole like Dawkins ( and for the record that is an example of an ad hominem attack on Dawkins, also poisoning the well) you end up like he is, arrogant and ignorant of philosophy/theology.  Dawkins' "degrees" in philosophy are honorary and have nothing to do with it*; anyone with a whit of philosophy can see through them like the pain (pun intended) of glass they are.

* Hon. D.Litt--Honorary Doctor Litterarum, Doctor of Literature or Letters.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8629723 - 07/13/08 03:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

His honorary degree is in addition to the ones I listed and does not contribute to his title.


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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8630178 - 07/13/08 05:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly I'd like to shout out to Zouden, and thank him for warning me of a :shitstorm:

Maybe it was irresponsible of me to select an argument of logical impotence relative to this thread. I wasn't aware that such a benign statement could enrage so many here. My intention was an attempt at fruitful debate, which I was in fact engaged with Senor_Hongos (oddly over a different point). I didn't however, want to start a quote mining war with anyone.. I feel that since I awoke the dead :hulk: , I have to answer for them.

The argument that Einstein was an atheist or not, cannot be used logically to illustrate the the central question: Is there a correlation between I.Q. and belief in God? That would be an appeal to authority. That being said, I'd like to think that I went after this trivial point on Einstein out of a discrepancy of my understanding versus the antecedent. After all people would like to consider themselves a fan of public intellectuals, wouldn't they? Einstein means a lot to me, and I think it's important to preserve his image and integrity.

Due to my distaste for quote mining, I'll only respond to the quotes you have unearthed. I will not, however, delve into the practice of it myself. I'll post links containing the resources encompassing my counterpoints.

Shall we begin?

Quote:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."





Einstein rejects both strong and explicit atheism[1][2], in the above quote, it's more than apparent (for those objective thinkers here) that he isn't defending theism. If any assertion is made from this quote, I'll call it as marginal evidence of his agnosticism. "people who say there is no God" referrers to the population of strong and explicit atheists who "know" there is no God. As a highly intelligent person, one would expect Einstein to reject such views of certainty, nobody can disprove a negative and everybody must be an epistemological agnostic out of common sense. As a brilliant scientist, he was wise to hold skepticism at both ends of the spectrum. This in no way affirms a belief in God or gods either way. (Don't repeat yourself please, challenge this new argument!)

Quote:


"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the language in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but does not know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws."




I love this quote because as Zouden said, it throws a lot of people off. Asserting that he wasn't an atheist or a pantheist he is actually, confusingly referring to a independent/subsequent meaning of the two words. As I said in the latter argument, Einstein only refers to explicit and strong atheism, not agnostic atheism/weak atheism or implicit atheism. It feels in this quote like he encourages that people ought to adopt implicit atheism, (the reference to the child not having a conscious grasp on a finite intelligence, therefore not needing to reject one) and that nature is vast while having a great mysterious order to it, should not ask supernatural questions in which cannot be answered. From other excerpts from the man[3], I'm compelled to believe that he liked the idea that we where largely ignorant to the fruits of the universe, that we have a long time to sit in the sun pondering the complexity of nature. Einstein viewed seeking answers in the supernatural to be counterproductive and demeaning to science. I highly doubt a busy man such as Einstein wasted his one precious life contemplating the supernatural or anything else that was irrelevant to his life of science.

Quote:

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."




As a genius, and without sufficient time in a waking day, why would Einstein bother wasting his time on the question of does God exist? Again he is comparing people who (say they) have 100% knowledge of the position of whether God exists or not, to be equally ignorant. To say that Einstein was asserting his theism, would actually be placing him in the group of people he rejects as ignorant.[4] He understood that life wasn't about the destination of the journey, but about the journey itself, just as science isn't about knowing the truth, but about approaching the truth knowledgeably.

Quote:

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds.
That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God..."





Curious that he uses the word "humble", to me that isn't an assertion at all. When someone applies a personification to nature, does it really imply that the person believes the latter actually has those kinds of attributes? Einstein explained nature playfully[5], after all didn't he "hear the music"? The second part of that quote clearly supports the fact that Einstein was a pantheist...

Allow me to clarify:

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
People here appear to interpret pantheism as a form of atheism, which it isn't. Pantheism, as Spinoza meant it, is the God is "all in all" concept, and so therefore you could say that nature = God, but it is also an oversimplification in light of most people's understanding of nature. It's like saying Christianity is atheism, because literal Christianity's view is that God is "all in all," and therefore, if it's nature, it is also God. That leaves out the belief that "all in all" is one being, which is the Spinoza, Christian, and Einstein belief.





Spinoza's God is naturalistic pantheism[6], Einstein adhered quite harmoniously to it.

I'm confident that I'll clear the air with this analogy:
Quote:

"...I don't think I can call myself a pantheist...."



A traditional view of pantheism has an alternate meaning apart from Spinoza's philosophies. There is no doubt that Einstein rejected classical pantheism[7], but accepts the modern definition of pantheism, which leans more towards a naturalistic pantheism.[8]

Most theist believe in an afterlife, even most technically atheistic religions (Buddhism etc..) believe in an afterlife, or continuance of consciousness after death. Einstein rejects such supernatural beliefs, explicitly in many of his quotations.[9]
In the rejection of a personal god, Einstein didn't find the idea of a conscious entity to be very appealing. He uses humanistic pronouns to describe nature where non-pantheistic atheists use inanimate ones. The entire premise of a deity is rests upon it's sentience.

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
You're misconstruing what "personal God" means.


"He didn't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, being"


He did. He didn't believe that there was a separated relationship of creator/creation, but believed that the unification of all things equaled this being.

Einstein was most definitely a theist.


 

Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention![10]
What's left? The only remotely coherent point you address, is the belief of an omnipresence. Seeing that Einstein equates the universe with the word God, and that the universe is omnipresent (sort of the definition) that's not out of the realm of pantheism.
Clearly you're good at dodging the facts, why not corroborate them for a change? Theism is the acceptance, the acknowledgment, and in most cases the worship of a supernatural being. I believe I've substantiated the evidence so well that your semantics wont taint the water.

Let me add this one last point very carefully, so that it wont be misunderstood:

The proponents of the argument for Einstein's implicit atheism and I, understand that our beliefs are fully independent to that of Einstein's. The nature of freethinkers allows the approach to an objective view of the world. Some indulge into appeals to authority but others make due with the facts. I think that I stick to the facts often enough. I challenge all that come to an impasse, click on the resources I've linked you to. If I'm wrong I want to know, I would be delighted to be wrong. It's fallibility that will give me an opportunity to learn something new. Please help me to learn...

:strokebeard:

Lastly, this thread has inspired me to change my signature quote, I'd like to thank Disco Cat at least for that!


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

Edited by wyldeman007 (07/13/08 05:49 PM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8632252 - 07/14/08 02:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Wow! What an excellet post. I'll provide one quote that nicely supports what you've said:

From http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay-einsteins-third-paradise.htm
Quote:

In 1929, Boston's Cardinal O'Connell branded Einstein's theory of relativity as "befogged speculation producing universal doubt about God and His Creation," and as implying "the ghastly apparition of atheism." In alarm, New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein asked Einstein by telegram:
"Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words." In his response, for which Einstein needed but twenty-five (German) words, he stated his beliefs succinctly:
"I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."
The rabbi cited this as evidence that Einstein was not an atheist, and further declared that "Einstein's theory, if carried to its logical conclusion, would bring to mankind a scientific formula for monotheism." Einstein wisely remained silent on that point.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8632265 - 07/14/08 02:51 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8633625 - 07/14/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

what if energy and matter are the same?

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8635752 - 07/14/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Excellent supplemental! :awesome:

And thanks man!


---------------------------------------------------
p.s.(TheWallpf) Isn't matter merely energy condensed to a slow vibration?  :smile:


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8659498 - 07/20/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Mod Edit: Disco Cat, you've been warned before. Flames are against the rules in this forum. If you want to debate that way, you're not welcome here. Go to OTD.

If you do it again here, you will be banned.

Edited by Diploid (07/20/08 03:56 PM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8659571 - 07/20/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Excuse me, flames? Maybe you need to read posts before deleting them.

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8659577 - 07/20/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Mod Edit: NO FLAMES! Go do that in OTD, not here!

Edited by Diploid (07/20/08 04:20 PM)

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8670317 - 07/23/08 02:26 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Mod Edit: NO FLAMES! Go do that in OTD, not here!





You can stop the charade, thanks.
To say that this is OTD material would be beyond baffling, if taken seriously, and would be a clear declaration that you have no knowledge of what OTD is, and, more oddly, that you are unaware of what routinely passes in P&S. Of course this isn't the case, though, and that attitude is merely you playing up a false image of justification where none exist, and why you've just received a warning for arbitrary and selective moderating, why the 7 day ban you gave me was revoked, and why you've had your future moderating authority restricted in regards to me. If you don't want to take the moderating job seriously, or unbiasedly, then you have the option to give it up. But to abuse it for a personal vendetta, a childish thing to begin with, is a betrayal of duty, and the trust of those who are a part of this community.
I was strongly encouraged, though not required, to let this topic go, so as to not aggravate any personal disputes, but this thread isn't about you, or the chip on your shoulder, and I'd whole-heatedly appreciate it if you didn't use it as such. Thanks.




Anyways, as I was saying:


Quote:

zouden said:
Wow! What an excellet post. I'll provide one quote that nicely supports what you've said:




Yes, if you're only looking for something which corroborates what you'd like to hear, in which case, it must've been positively wonderful. But objective and intelligent, it was not.


As for wyldeman, what an unfortunate load of unobjective nonsense. I was very much not eager to waste my time on this, as you're seemingly someone who will reject the reality of what you don't like.

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
[Ad Hominem]
Firstly I'd like to shout out to Zouden, and thank him for warning me of a :shitstorm:

Maybe it was irresponsible of me to select an argument of logical impotence relative to this thread. I wasn't aware that such a benign statement could enrage so many here. My intention was an attempt at fruitful debate, which I was in fact engaged with Senor_Hongos (oddly over a different point). I didn't however, want to start a quote mining war with anyone.. I feel that since I awoke the dead :hulk: , I have to answer for them.




What shit storm? The only messy and over-excited pile of crap that came in response to your comment was your own subsequent post. In fact, you appear to be the only person whose was skin was got under by the discussion at all. It seems apparant that what you were trying to do was imply superiority through vain techniques, a reoccurring theme in your post.

And actually, the contribution of yours to which I responded was:
"One thing that I know for certain is that Einstein did not believe in a creator. He was a pantheist and referred to the universe as God, not God as a being. :sorry:  Einstein was an atheist..."

That post is certainly not an intentioned attempt at fruitful discussion, more the opposite, and, sadly, one more thing that you were willing to misconstrue.


Quote:


The argument that Einstein was an atheist or not, cannot be used logically to illustrate the the central question: Is there a correlation between I.Q. and belief in God? That would be an appeal to authority. That being said, I'd like to think that I went after this trivial point on Einstein out of a discrepancy of my understanding versus the antecedent. After all people would like to consider themselves a fan of public intellectuals, wouldn't they? Einstein means a lot to me, and I think it's important to preserve his image and integrity.

Due to my distaste for quote mining, I'll only respond to the quotes you have unearthed. I will not, however, delve into the practice of it myself. I'll post links containing the resources encompassing my counterpoints.

Shall we begin?




Arrogance abounds in verbose introductions. As much as you're desperately trying to convey yourself as superior (read: unobjectively desiring to forcefully suggest that you are right without displaying such), your decision to relegate things to a "quote mining war," a misapropriation, is not only vain (whether the quote is on this page or another, your point depends on it to the same extent), but it inconveniences your argument and frustrates the reader, as they cannot find your point without sifting through a page of irrelevant data. Your attempt to forcefully suggest a superior intelligence in yourself is the thing that underlines the lack of it.


Quote:

Quote:

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."




As a genius, and without sufficient time in a waking day, why would Einstein bother wasting his time on the question of does God exist? Again he is comparing people who (say they) have 100% knowledge of the position of whether God exists or not, to be equally ignorant. To say that Einstein was asserting his theism, would actually be placing him in the group of people he rejects as ignorant.[4] He understood that life wasn't about the destination of the journey, but about the journey itself, just as science isn't about knowing the truth, but about approaching the truth knowledgeably.




It wasn't said that Einstein was asserting a theistic belief with that quote, fyi.

Quote:

Quote:

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds.
That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God..."





Curious that he uses the word "humble", to me that isn't an assertion at all. When someone applies a personification to nature, does it really imply that the person believes the latter actually has those kinds of attributes? Einstein explained nature playfully[5], after all didn't he "hear the music"? The second part of that quote clearly supports the fact that Einstein was a pantheist...




The word "humble" being used has no bearing on whether it is as assertion or not, regardless of what you were trying to suggest with that. "Hear the music" isn't a description of nature, inapplicable parallel. "Deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power" nullifies your suggestion that Einstein didn't believe the whole of existence was sentient.

Again and again, Einstein believed in a God which is all in all, one entity, that didn't operate with people on an individual level due to the fact that people aren't individual items.

This one is also not a personification.

"...everyone who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that or men, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."


Quote:


Most theist believe in an afterlife, even most technically atheistic religions (Buddhism etc..) believe in an afterlife, or continuance of consciousness after death. Einstein rejects such supernatural beliefs, explicitly in many of his quotations.[9]
In the rejection of a personal god, Einstein didn't find the idea of a conscious entity to be very appealing. He uses humanistic pronouns to describe nature where non-pantheistic atheists use inanimate ones. The entire premise of a deity is rests upon it's sentience.




Einstein considered the superior power (singular unification) to be reasoning, and therefore sentient. If you were objective in your reading, you would know that.

Also, if you had any objectivity in you, you would not say that Einstein rejected any consciousness after death, and you'd refrain from such fabrications.

I assume that these must be the quotes you're misconstruing:

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."


However, these quotes don't say what you claim. An objective reader is able to see that Einstein, painfully obviously and intentionally, with his words, rejected an afterlife of the individual, just the same as he rejected a God that is concerned with people on an individual level.



Quote:

Quote:

Einstein was most definitely a theist.


 

Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention![10]





Since you must not know what a "strawman" is, here, look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."


This is an example of a strawman:
"Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention!"

The more objective readers would know that.

Quote:

The proponents of the argument for Einstein's implicit atheism and I, understand that our beliefs are fully independent to that of Einstein's. The nature of freethinkers allows the approach to an objective view of the world. Some indulge into appeals to authority but others make due with the facts. I think that I stick to the facts often enough. I challenge all that come to an impasse, click on the resources I've linked you to. If I'm wrong I want to know, I would be delighted to be wrong. It's fallibility that will give me an opportunity to learn something new. Please help me to learn...




While you vainly abstained from placing your referred to quotes on the same page as your argument, I'll choose instead to abstain from the intellectual immaturity behind your response. You forgot to supply facts with this post of yours, and surrogated them with verbose arrogance. You have been proven wrong, Einstein's own words prove you wrong, and were you actually the type who was willing to learn, you'd have seen that. Instead, you are apparently the type who will number their quotes to look like a popular online encyclopedia, who will intentionally misquote someone to build support for your argument (did not "believe in the concept of god"), and who will make empty claims of objectivity while possessing none in yourself. It was my personal guess, while reading your reply, that maybe you were just high and got caught up in rambling, but if so, and I'm not saying that was the case, but suggesting your own objectivity after all that ill-thought out nonsense is a tremendous false step and a sign that you have little, if any, integrity.


Quote:

Lastly, this thread has inspired me to change my signature quote, I'd like to thank Disco Cat at least for that!




Immaturity upon immaturity. Personally, I don't take immaturity to be a sign of greater intellect. As a side note, I imagine that the only person who would be proud to sig a Dawkins quote would be one who's never seen him debate. One who has would more likely be embarrassed to choose him be a mouthpiece for their views.

Edited by Disco Cat (07/23/08 02:45 AM)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8670392 - 07/23/08 02:47 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
Mod Edit: NO FLAMES! Go do that in OTD, not here!





You can stop the charade, thanks.
To say that this is OTD material would be beyond baffling, if taken seriously, and would be a clear declaration that you have no knowledge of what OTD is, and, more oddly, that you are unaware of what routinely passes in P&S. Of course this isn't the case, though, and that attitude is merely you playing up a false image of justification where none exist, and why you've just received a warning for arbitrary and selective moderating, why the 7 day ban you gave me was revoked, and why you've had your future moderating authority restricted in regards to me. If you don't want to take the moderating job seriously, or unbiasedly, then you have the option to give it up. But to abuse it for a personal vendetta, a childish thing to begin with, is a betrayal of duty, and the trust of those who are a part of this community.
I was strongly encouraged, though not required, to let this topic go, so as to not aggravate any personal disputes, but this thread isn't about you, or the chip on your shoulder, and I'd whole-heatedly appreciate it if you didn't use it as such. Thanks.




Anyways, as I was saying:


Quote:

zouden said:
Wow! What an excellet post. I'll provide one quote that nicely supports what you've said:




Yes, if you're only looking for something which corroborates what you'd like to hear, in which case, it must've been positively wonderful. But objective and intelligent, it was not.


As for wyldeman, what an unfortunate load of unobjective nonsense. I was very much not eager to waste my time on this, as you're seemingly someone who will reject the reality of what you don't like.

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
[Ad Hominem]
Firstly I'd like to shout out to Zouden, and thank him for warning me of a :shitstorm:

Maybe it was irresponsible of me to select an argument of logical impotence relative to this thread. I wasn't aware that such a benign statement could enrage so many here. My intention was an attempt at fruitful debate, which I was in fact engaged with Senor_Hongos (oddly over a different point). I didn't however, want to start a quote mining war with anyone.. I feel that since I awoke the dead :hulk: , I have to answer for them.




What shit storm? The only messy and over-excited pile of crap that came in response to your comment was your own subsequent post. In fact, you appear to be the only person whose was skin was got under by the discussion at all. It seems apparant that what you were trying to do was imply superiority through vain techniques, a reoccurring theme in your post.

And actually, the contribution of yours to which I responded was:
"One thing that I know for certain is that Einstein did not believe in a creator. He was a pantheist and referred to the universe as God, not God as a being. :sorry:  Einstein was an atheist..."

That post is certainly not an intentioned attempt at fruitful discussion, more the opposite, and, sadly, one more thing that you were willing to misconstrue.


Quote:


The argument that Einstein was an atheist or not, cannot be used logically to illustrate the the central question: Is there a correlation between I.Q. and belief in God? That would be an appeal to authority. That being said, I'd like to think that I went after this trivial point on Einstein out of a discrepancy of my understanding versus the antecedent. After all people would like to consider themselves a fan of public intellectuals, wouldn't they? Einstein means a lot to me, and I think it's important to preserve his image and integrity.

Due to my distaste for quote mining, I'll only respond to the quotes you have unearthed. I will not, however, delve into the practice of it myself. I'll post links containing the resources encompassing my counterpoints.

Shall we begin?




Arrogance abounds in verbose introductions. As much as you're desperately trying to convey yourself as superior (read: unobjectively desiring to forcefully suggest that you are right without displaying such), your decision to relegate things to a "quote mining war," a misapropriation, is not only vain (whether the quote is on this page or another, your point depends on it to the same extent), but it inconveniences your argument and frustrates the reader, as they cannot find your point without sifting through a page of irrelevant data. Your attempt to forcefully suggest a superior intelligence in yourself is the thing that underlines the lack of it.


Quote:

Quote:

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."




As a genius, and without sufficient time in a waking day, why would Einstein bother wasting his time on the question of does God exist? Again he is comparing people who (say they) have 100% knowledge of the position of whether God exists or not, to be equally ignorant. To say that Einstein was asserting his theism, would actually be placing him in the group of people he rejects as ignorant.[4] He understood that life wasn't about the destination of the journey, but about the journey itself, just as science isn't about knowing the truth, but about approaching the truth knowledgeably.




It wasn't said that Einstein was asserting a theistic belief with that quote, fyi.

Quote:

Quote:

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds.
That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God..."





Curious that he uses the word "humble", to me that isn't an assertion at all. When someone applies a personification to nature, does it really imply that the person believes the latter actually has those kinds of attributes? Einstein explained nature playfully[5], after all didn't he "hear the music"? The second part of that quote clearly supports the fact that Einstein was a pantheist...




The word "humble" being used has no bearing on whether it is as assertion or not, regardless of what you were trying to suggest with that. "Hear the music" isn't a description of nature, inapplicable parallel. "Deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power" nullifies your suggestion that Einstein didn't believe the whole of existence was sentient.

Again and again, Einstein believed in a God which is all in all, one entity, that didn't operate with people on an individual level due to the fact that people aren't individual items.

This one is also not a personification.

"...everyone who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that or men, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."


Quote:


Most theist believe in an afterlife, even most technically atheistic religions (Buddhism etc..) believe in an afterlife, or continuance of consciousness after death. Einstein rejects such supernatural beliefs, explicitly in many of his quotations.[9]
In the rejection of a personal god, Einstein didn't find the idea of a conscious entity to be very appealing. He uses humanistic pronouns to describe nature where non-pantheistic atheists use inanimate ones. The entire premise of a deity is rests upon it's sentience.




Einstein considered the superior power (singular unification) to be reasoning, and therefore sentient. If you were objective in your reading, you would know that.

Also, if you had any objectivity in you, you would not say that Einstein rejected any consciousness after death, and you'd refrain from such fabrications.

I assume that these must be the quotes you're misconstruing:

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."


However, these quotes don't say what you claim. An objective reader is able to see that Einstein, painfully obviously and intentionally, with his words, rejected an afterlife of the individual, just the same as he rejected a God that is concerned with people on an individual level.



Quote:

Quote:

Einstein was most definitely a theist.


 

Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention![10]





Since you must not know what a "strawman" is, here, look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."


This is an example of a strawman:
"Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention!"

The more objective readers would know that.

Quote:

The proponents of the argument for Einstein's implicit atheism and I, understand that our beliefs are fully independent to that of Einstein's. The nature of freethinkers allows the approach to an objective view of the world. Some indulge into appeals to authority but others make due with the facts. I think that I stick to the facts often enough. I challenge all that come to an impasse, click on the resources I've linked you to. If I'm wrong I want to know, I would be delighted to be wrong. It's fallibility that will give me an opportunity to learn something new. Please help me to learn...




While you vainly abstained from placing your referred to quotes on the same page as your argument, I'll choose instead to abstain from the intellectual immaturity behind your response. You forgot to supply facts with this post of yours, and surrogated them with verbose arrogance. You have been proven wrong, Einstein's own words prove you wrong, and were you actually the type who was willing to learn, you'd have seen that. Instead, you are apparently the type who will number their quotes to look like a popular online encyclopedia, who will intentionally misquote someone to build support for your argument (did not "believe in the concept of god"), and who will make empty claims of objectivity while possessing none in yourself. It was my personal guess, while reading your reply, that maybe you were just high and got caught up in rambling, but if so, and I'm not saying that was the case, but suggesting your own objectivity after all that ill-thought out nonsense is a tremendous false step and a sign that you have little, if any, integrity.


Quote:

Lastly, this thread has inspired me to change my signature quote, I'd like to thank Disco Cat at least for that!




Immaturity upon immaturity. Personally, I don't take immaturity to be a sign of greater intellect. As a side note, I imagine that the only person who would be proud to sig a Dawkins quote would be one who's never seen him debate. One who has would more likely be embarrassed to choose him be a mouthpiece for their views.





Post quoted, copied and saved to harddrive.


--------------------

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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8670420 - 07/23/08 02:54 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

zouden said:
Wow! What an excellent post. I'll provide one quote that nicely supports what you've said:




Yes, if you're only looking for something which corroborates what you'd like to hear, in which case, it must've been positively wonderful. But objective and intelligent, it was not. <--This is an appeal to consequences of a belief because he asserts that zouden's claim is false because it would mean negative consequences for himself.

As for wyldeman, what an unfortunate load of unobjective nonsense. I'm very much not into in wasting my time on this, as you're seemingly someone who will reject the reality of what you don't like. <-- An ad hominem attack along side a false accusation of poisoning the well.

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
[Ad Hominem]
Firstly I'd like to shout out to Zouden, and thank him for warning me of a :shitstorm:

Maybe it was irresponsible of me to select an argument of logical impotence relative to this thread. I wasn't aware that such a benign statement could enrage so many here. My intention was an attempt at fruitful debate, which I was in fact engaged with Senor_Hongos (oddly over a different point). I didn't however, want to start a quote mining war with anyone.. I feel that since I awoke the dead :hulk: , I have to answer for them. <-- Clearly not an ad hominem because I was explaining MYSELF and MY argumentative intentions.




What shit storm? The only messy and hot-headed pile of crap that came in response to your comment was your own subsequent post.<-- Factual error. Clearly not. In fact, you appear to be the only person whose was skin was got under by the discussion at all.<-- False accusation of an appeal to emotion. I see your blood pressure is normal. I base none of my arguments on my convictions as I explicitly addressed earlier. Maybe you were high when you wrote your response (which is what I'm assuming), but I guess that what you were trying to do was imply superiority through vain techniques, a reoccurring theme.<-- Ad hominem attack , circumstantial ad hominem, and appeal to ridicule. My being high or not has no bearing on the factuality of my argument, you try again and again to destroy my argument by destroying my reputation, hence the shit storm.

And actually, your only contribution to this thread is:
"One thing that I know for certain is that Einstein did not believe in a creator. He was a pantheist and referred to the universe as God, not God as a being. :sorry:  Einstein was an atheist..."<-- Factual  error. I think I've put more intellectual currency into this argument than that post..

Or do you have a puppet account? That post is neither at attempt at fruitful discussion, nor did it occur in an engaged discussion with Senor_Hongos.<-- Factual error. :wtf: puppet account? I had a wonderful debate with Senor_Hongos!


Quote:


The argument that Einstein was an atheist or not, cannot be used logically to illustrate the the central question: Is there a correlation between I.Q. and belief in God? That would be an appeal to authority. That being said, I'd like to think that I went after this trivial point on Einstein out of a discrepancy of my understanding versus the antecedent. After all people would like to consider themselves a fan of public intellectuals, wouldn't they? Einstein means a lot to me, and I think it's important to preserve his image and integrity.

Due to my distaste for quote mining, I'll only respond to the quotes you have unearthed. I will not, however, delve into the practice of it myself. I'll post links containing the resources encompassing my counterpoints.

Shall we begin?




Arrogance abounds in verbose introductions, hm?<-- Does a slightly above average vocabulary function as a detriment to the modus operandi of my argumentative tactics? Naw I don't think so. As much as you're desperately trying to convey yourself as superior (read: unobjectively desiring to forcefully suggest that you are right without displaying such), your decision to relegate things to a "quote mining war," a misapropriation, is not only vain (whether the quote is on this page or another, your point depends on it to the same extent), but it inconveniences your argument and frustrates the reader, as they cannot find your point without sifting through a page of irrelevant data.<-- Ad hominem and appeal to ridicule. Go after the argument not the man. I don't like it when opponents find quotes and copy/paste them out of context to form strawmen. If the reader is too lazy to review my resources that, doesn't demean the argument in any way. Your attempt to forcefully suggest a superior intelligence in yourself is the thing that signifies the lack of it.<-- Begging the question. You assume that I assert a superior intelligence by simply arguing a point.


Quote:

Quote:

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."




As a genius, and without sufficient time in a waking day, why would Einstein bother wasting his time on the question of does God exist? Again he is comparing people who (say they) have 100% knowledge of the position of whether God exists or not, to be equally ignorant. To say that Einstein was asserting his theism, would actually be placing him in the group of people he rejects as ignorant.[4] He understood that life wasn't about the destination of the journey, but about the journey itself, just as science isn't about knowing the truth, but about approaching the truth knowledgeably.




It wasn't said that Einstein was asserting his theism in that quote, fyi.<-- True, but this quote denies Einstein's theism in my eyes.

Quote:

Quote:

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds.
That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God..."





Curious that he uses the word "humble", to me that isn't an assertion at all. When someone applies a personification to nature, does it really imply that the person believes the latter actually has those kinds of attributes? Einstein explained nature playfully[5], after all didn't he "hear the music"? The second part of that quote clearly supports the fact that Einstein was a pantheist...




The word "humble" being used has no bearing on whether it is as assertion or not, I'm unsure of where you were trying to go with that. "Hear the music" isn't a description of nature, inapplicable parallel. "Deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power" nullifies any hope you had at misleading people into thinking Einstein didn't believe the whole of existence was sentient.<-- Strawman you warped the meanings of the quotes to reflect your argument's validity. "My religion consists of a humble admiration" = my religion is a humble admiration = my religion, while being other things, is not an assertion but an implicit appreciation. the "reasoning power" is found in the human psyche not in God.

Again and again, Einstein believed in a God which is all in all, one entity, that didn't operate with people on an individual level due to the fact that people aren't individual items. <-- Strawman. The reason Einstein's god didn't interact on an individual level is because it lacked sentience.

"...everyone who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that or men, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."

Quote:

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
You're misconstruing what "personal God" means.





"He didn't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, being"





He did. He didn't believe that there was a separated relationship of creator/creation, but believed that the unification of all things equaled this being.<-- Asked and answered  :repost:

Quote:


Most theist believe in an afterlife, even most technically atheistic religions (Buddhism etc..) believe in an afterlife, or continuance of consciousness after death. Einstein rejects such supernatural beliefs, explicitly in many of his quotations.[9]
In the rejection of a personal god, Einstein didn't find the idea of a conscious entity to be very appealing. He uses humanistic pronouns to describe nature where non-pantheistic atheists use inanimate ones. The entire premise of a deity is rests upon it's sentience.




Einstein considered the superior power (singular unification) to be reasoning, and therefore sentient. If you were objective in your reading, you would know that.<-- Strawman and Circumstantial ad hominem. Einstein didn't claim that the "superior power (singular unification)" was a sentient being. My objectivity has no bearing on my argument being valid.

Also, if you had any objectivity in you, you would not say that Einstein rejected any consciousness after death, and you'd refrain from such fabrications.<-- Circumstantial ad hominem and appeal to ridicule. My objectivity on the matter has no bearing on the validity of my argument. It's clear as day based on his words, Einstein didn't believe in souls!

I assume that these must be the quotes you're misconstruing:<-- Begging the question. The bold assumption that I'm misconstruing these quotes does not negate my claim.

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."



However, these quotes don't say what you claim. An objective reader is able to see that Einstein, intentionally with his words, rejected an afterlife of the individual, just the same as he rejected a God that is concerned with people on an individual level. As has been said over and over again, Einstein believed in a God which is all in all, a oneness.<-- Factual error. Not theism, pantheism :repost:



Quote:

Einstein was most definitely a theist.


 

Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention![10] <-- The strawman lies in the fact that  Einstein isn't a theist, saying that he doesn't reject all the latter views and saying he is a theist is an attempt to alter my argument of Einstein, to more easily disprove it.





Since you don't know what a "strawman" is, here, look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position). A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."<-- thank you :thumbup: for clearing that up.


This is an example of a strawman:
"Your perverting the meaning of the word theism, I've seen some impressive straw-men in my time, but this is extraordinary! There is evidence that he rejects a law-giver, a conscious entity, a being capable of divine intervention!" <-- I see what you did here...:rofl: :rofl2:

The more objective readers would know that.

Quote:

The proponents of the argument for Einstein's implicit atheism and I, understand that our beliefs are fully independent to that of Einstein's. The nature of freethinkers allows the approach to an objective view of the world. Some indulge into appeals to authority but others make due with the facts. I think that I stick to the facts often enough. I challenge all that come to an impasse, click on the resources I've linked you to. If I'm wrong I want to know, I would be delighted to be wrong. It's fallibility that will give me an opportunity to learn something new. Please help me to learn...




While you vainly abstained from placing your referred to quotes on the same page as your argument, I'll choose instead to abstain from the intellectual immaturity behind your response. <-- Appeal to ridicule. Quote mining and citing resources are two very different things. You forgot to supply facts with this post of yours, and surrogated them with verbose arrogance. <-- Appeal to ridicule and factual error. I supplied many facts and corroborated them with resource links. My "arrogance" as you accuse me has no effect on my position's correctness. You have been proven wrong, and were you actually the type who was willing to learn, you'd have seen that. <-- Begging the question. I missed where I was proven wrong and I am willing to learn, if there are things to behold. Instead, you're the type who will number their quotes to look like a popular online encyclopedia, and who will make empty claims of objectivity while possessing none in yourself. <-- Appeal to ridicule and factual error. My claims where pretty substantiated I think, none of my links were quotes, they were links :laugh:uh:. I was hoping someone would pick up on how I was going for the wiki look. :awesome: It's my guess that you were just high and got caught up in rambling, but still, suggesting your own objectivity after all that ill-thought out nonsense is a tremendous false step and a sign that you have little, if any, integrity. <--Ad hominem, poisoning the well and appeal to ridicule. If I was in fact high (which I wasn't) it would have no gravity towards the facts I present. Neither my objectivity nor my integrity have anything to say about my argument at all. I don't do drugs (except alcohol) and I think that the level of objectivity and integrity are obvious in my post, nobody needs you to point it out.

Quote:


Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Lastly, this thread has inspired me to change my signature quote, I'd like to thank Disco Cat at least for that!





Immaturity upon immaturity. As a side note, I imagine that the only person who would be proud to sig a Dawkins quote would be one who's never seen him debate. One who has would more likely be embarrassed to choose him be a mouthpiece for their views.<-- What? You did inspire me! Richard Dawkins is a wonderful debater, a treat for the ears IMO. I suggest reading "The God Delusion" and "Unweaving the Rainbow", wonderful books!




--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheWallpf]
    #8670421 - 07/23/08 02:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheWallpf said:
what if energy and matter are the same?



How so?


--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8670440 - 07/23/08 03:00 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I hope you realize this conversation is more than likely between the two of you at this point.  Others may comment, but unless I miss my guess no one is going to go that in depth over the tits and tats.

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8670448 - 07/23/08 03:03 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Post quoted, copied and saved to harddrive.



This sounds serious

:confused:


--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
    #8670456 - 07/23/08 03:07 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Post quoted, copied and saved to harddrive.



This sounds serious

:confused:




sorry about this whole thing guys, should have started a new thread :eek:


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8670462 - 07/23/08 03:09 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

NP.  I just wanted both of you to realize you may have lost the audience.


--------------------

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: TheWallpf]
    #8670464 - 07/23/08 03:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

i think

to express your genius through mathematics which harness the mechanisms of reality is like preaching truth to the masses.


--------------------

Edited by dirtydirt (07/23/08 03:11 AM)

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: wyldeman007]
    #8670502 - 07/23/08 03:38 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

So we're to flat out mock the concept of a debate now? I wouldn't waste time putting forth such inane behaviour as my argument, but I'll make for you some quick examples of how your tactic, wylde007, works the other way.

Quote:

What shit storm? The only messy and hot-headed pile of crap that came in response to your comment was your own subsequent post.<-- Factual error. Clearly not.




Suggesting that it is factual error because it would have negative consequences for him if it were not.


Quote:

<-- Clearly not an ad hominem because I was explaining MYSELF and MY argumentative intentions.




False. Pointed the arrow at the section after the ad-hominem part in attempt to connive the reader:

Quote:

Firstly I'd like to shout out to Zouden, and thank him for warning me of a :shitstorm:
Maybe it was irresponsible of me to select an argument of logical impotence relative to this thread. I wasn't aware that such a benign statement could enrage so many here.





Ad-hominem. No one was enraged, or anything similar, by your comment. Attempting to dramatically portray the response to characterize it as irrational, an appeal to emotion rather than intellect. An ad hominem, from a post filled with them.


Quote:

Arrogance abounds in verbose introductions, hm?<-- Does a slightly above average vocabulary function as a detriment to the modus operandi of my argumentative tactics? Naw I don't think so.




Distracting from and misconstruing what was actually said, aka, a Strawman. "Verbose" does not mean an above average vocabulary, it means needlessly wordy (length), in this case, most likely, for show.



Quote:

your decision to relegate things to a "quote mining war," a misapropriation, is not only vain (whether the quote is on this page or another, your point depends on it to the same extent), but it inconveniences your argument and frustrates the reader, as they cannot find your point without sifting through a page of irrelevant data. <-- Ad hominem and appeal to ridicule. Go after the argument not the man. I don't like it when opponents find quotes and copy/paste them out of context to form strawmen. If the reader is too lazy to review my resources that, doesn't demean the argument in any way.




False. Calling ad-hominem where none exists, in hopes of relegating the contending material as un-effective. If someone makes a lengthy point of why they wouldn't "quote-mine," an explanatory response on why such a thing is not important or helpful to anything is apt. In addition, it it were not apt to explain why such a thing was needless, it would still fail to be an ad-hominem, by even the most lax interpretation of the term.




Done. Such tactics could be easily applied to every point you made, but play all you want, I have absolutely no interest in such pretentiousness.

And I agree, nobody else is going to be reading such tangental material, and I don't care to either.


Edited by Disco Cat (07/23/08 04:09 AM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8670511 - 07/23/08 03:45 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I had hoped this thread was dead :frown:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8670869 - 07/23/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You can stop the charade, thanks.
To say that this is OTD material would be beyond baffling, if taken seriously, and would be a clear declaration that you have no knowledge of what OTD is, and, more oddly, that you are unaware of what routinely passes in P&S. Of course this isn't the case, though, and that attitude is merely you playing up a false image of justification where none exist, and why you've just received a warning for arbitrary and selective moderating, why the 7 day ban you gave me was revoked, and why you've had your future moderating authority restricted in regards to me. If you don't want to take the moderating job seriously, or unbiasedly, then you have the option to give it up. But to abuse it for a personal vendetta, a childish thing to begin with, is a betrayal of duty, and the trust of those who are a part of this community.
I was strongly encouraged, though not required, to let this topic go, so as to not aggravate any personal disputes, but this thread isn't about you, or the chip on your shoulder, and I'd whole-heatedly appreciate it if you didn't use it as such. Thanks.


non-sense


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Icelander]
    #8670887 - 07/23/08 08:46 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Easy enough to prove.  Find a thread or a comment in OTD that parallels the depth of the ideas contained therein.

Shit don't stink if you don't stir the pot.


--------------------

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8670892 - 07/23/08 08:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

That's not my point as I try not to nit pick. It's his overall statement about the quality of Diploid. We have rarely had such quality and consistent moderating in these forums.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Icelander]
    #8670997 - 07/23/08 09:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

as far as you know.  I will not comment on the moderating since technically that isn't a philosophic or spiritual topic.  I do, however, consider the parallels between forums highly philosophical.  Each one seems to be unique.  OTD and this one are as different as night and day.  That's pretty much irrefutable.

:shrug:


--------------------

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8671184 - 07/23/08 10:41 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Easy enough to prove.  Find a thread or a comment in OTD that parallels the depth of the ideas contained therein.

Shit don't stink if you don't stir the pot.




He obviously wasnt comparing the entire thread, or even your post to the OTD forum. However, OTD is the only place where "flaming" is allowed. I didnt get a chance to read your post, so I have no idea weather or not it was a valid statement, in spite of that I fail to see what any of this has to do with the  original topic of this thread. It seems like all discussions has broken down into nothing more than arguing for arguments sake.

Why post your moderator complaints here?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8671269 - 07/23/08 11:07 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Exactly, why post moderator complaints in here?  Disco Cat has been around long enough to know that this type of behavior is not accepted.  If you have a problem with a moderator, you take it to them directly, or to the administrators.  Disco Cat actually did this, but then shat all over the process and shot himself in the foot by mouthing off in public immediately afterwards.  Sorry Disco, that won't fly in my book.  What you may have perceived as a mere suggestion from me, was in fact a directive.  Had you not been so blatent in your disrespect for specific members, I might have looked the other way.  But your opening paragraph towards Diploid was completely uncalled for, and many of the following comments you made are borderline:

Quote:

"I was very much not eager to waste my time on this, as you're seemingly someone who will reject the reality of what you don't like."

"It seems apparant that what you were trying to do was imply superiority through vain techniques, a reoccurring theme in your post."

"Arrogance abounds in verbose introductions. As much as you're desperately trying to convey yourself as superior ... Your attempt to forcefully suggest a superior intelligence in yourself is the thing that underlines the lack of it.

"If you were objective in your reading, you would know that ... Also, if you had any objectivity in you"

"I'll choose instead to abstain from the intellectual immaturity behind your response."

"Immaturity upon immaturity. Personally, I don't take immaturity to be a sign of greater intellect."




Don't bother creating a support ticket about this, you can wait your ban out and come back, or pack your things and go.  It's your call.

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