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Afroshroomerican
Oprah's Minion
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 891
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8535800 - 06/18/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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BrainChemistry said:
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Senor_Hongos said: Which concept isn't "purely human"?
Mathematics. Scientific facts.
I disagree; Mathematics and science are ways to rationalize our perceptions of the universe. It aids in predicting and controlling certain forces of nature. It just so happens it works most of the time.
Science/Math is from study of the universe. It wasn't just "here". E.g.: Quantum Physics still has some happenings that are not understood; people have just found ways to model around it anyway.
No, no one invented fire; however it doesn't come from nothing, so I don't see the rationale.
I have never seen/heard anything come from nothing; aren't there scientific facts stating this?
And I'll rephrase: By what we have seen (scientifically) and by our commonsense, it is HIGHLY doubtful that something just "is". Just because we can't prove the existence of a higher power doesn't preclude existence.
-------------------- "We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools." ~Martin Luther King Jr.~ <passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass <passitbobbie> youd think it was female "You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic
Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/18/08 12:21 AM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
#8535825 - 06/18/08 12:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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There are particles in quantum physics that actually come from nothing.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9603/9603152v1.pdf
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BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
#8535842 - 06/18/08 12:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I disagree; Mathematics and science are ways to rationalize our perceptions of the universe.
Mathematics and science are more than just rationalizations. They are accurate descriptions (for the most part, there are definitely some theories that have yet to be fully proven...and I'm even open to possibility that existing proofs could be unproven.)
Boil it down to its simplest form.
1+1 = 2
It doesn't matter if you are a human, an ape, an iguana, or an alien. If you have one physical object and put it together with another physical object, you will have two physical objects. This is the basis for all math. Whatever we can physically observe, we describe it with the LANGUAGE of mathematics. Math is a way of describing what we see. The language of math can be written erroneously (1 + 1 = 3). Don't argue with me over semantics with this, "1" means a single physical object.
When used accurately, math describes the universe how it ACTUALLY is. Our perceptions don't play a part in it. Another being can PERCEIVE it in a different way, but if we could find a way to describe it in the same language, the concepts would be the same. Math and science describe physical TRUTHS. There is nothing abstract about.
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Science/Math is from study of the universe. It wasn't just "here".
Wrong. It was just here. We have only lacked the language and ability to describe it until modern times.
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it is HIGHLY doubtful that something just "is". Just because we can't prove the existence of a higher power doesn't preclude existence.
This is your human disposition kicking in. It is very likely that something simply is. What is more likely is that we don't yet understand, and don't have the language to describe everything that "is". We can't prove the existence of a higher power, and yet, we haven't proved it either. Again, 50/50 chance.
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Afroshroomerican
Oprah's Minion
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 891
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8535893 - 06/18/08 12:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nonetheless, with math/science etc, there are still things that cannot be predicted with infallible accuracy (unless you want to head over to the predicting Earthquakes thread).
Then we have "statistics" that can HELP us predict occurrences. But these are never 100% accurate. They are just rationalizations. The universe doesn't conform to us; we conform to it.
There are TONS AND TONS of things in math/science that aren't 100% "truths". Last time I opened a science book (I admit not in awhile--it is the summer ), it was littered with "theories".
I never said that there is 100% chance of there being a higher power; I just said it's more understandable and more likely based on what we see.
But we can argue this till the death. I like science etc, but I don't like the way some use it to claim they figured out all of the world.
P.S.--I'm not reading that whole PDF. If there is something which states that something comes from nothing, then that violates other "laws" and goes to show that science is based on rationale not always "truths"
-------------------- "We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools." ~Martin Luther King Jr.~ <passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass <passitbobbie> youd think it was female "You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic
Edited by Afroshroomerican (06/18/08 01:02 AM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
#8535899 - 06/18/08 01:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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What Einstein called, "uninspired empiricism."
Without philosophy, science wouldn't exist.
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BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
#8535901 - 06/18/08 01:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree Afro...and i'm glad you're willing to seek the middle ground here. As i've said, i believe in a 50/50 chance that what we see from day to day has arrived from purely random chance, or that it was created by divine power. I'm fully aware that much of science is purely theory..and even what we think we might know, the things we take for certain, may actually be false.
All I was trying to describe was the concept behind math and science, what its purpose is. I think, ultimately, we have to look inside for answers, not out. We each should create our own language to describe the universe, and share it with as many people as we can.
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Afroshroomerican
Oprah's Minion
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Posts: 891
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
#8535919 - 06/18/08 01:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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BrainChemistry said: We each should create our own language to describe the universe, and share it with as many people as we can.
IMO, that's what religion tries to do, but it becomes tainted by human faults and desires. Then the hive-like mentality kicks in and the weak follow the strong--many instances of this outside of religion have been seen throughout history.
E.G. Christianity had a huge fan-base (I don't mean to sound blasphemous--but that's what it takes for anything to become popular really). But that's their way of believing and it does have sound moral structure despite having governmental qualities.
-------------------- "We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools." ~Martin Luther King Jr.~ <passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass <passitbobbie> youd think it was female "You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
#8535936 - 06/18/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah...its a pretty good possibility that Christianity, along with other religions, probably spawned from a single person trying to make sense of the universe on his own terms. Chances are that person was extremely charismatic, and accrued followers to his beliefs because they couldn't figure things out on their own.
The one nice thing about organized religion is that it does include philosophical insights into the human character and behavior. It provides moral codes and ethics, that if truly followed, would make the world a much better place. But somehow...these aspects of organized religion are the easiest to forget and circumvent. How many Christians break commandments on a regular basis with the excuse of, "I will confess my sins, and God will forgive me."?
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#8536041 - 06/18/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Senor_Hongos said: There are particles in quantum physics that actually come from nothing.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9603/9603152v1.pdf
Not possible. I think that is talking about creating particles by ramming beams of radiation into each other within a vacuum at high velocity, creating an electron and a positron. This is creating matter from energy where there previously was no matter, but it's not creating something out of nothing.
Edited by Disco Cat (06/18/08 02:29 AM)
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Chemy
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
#8537108 - 06/18/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Disco Cat said:
Quote:
Senor_Hongos said: There are particles in quantum physics that actually come from nothing.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9603/9603152v1.pdf
Not possible. I think that is talking about creating particles by ramming beams of radiation into each other within a vacuum at high velocity, creating an electron and a positron. This is creating matter from energy where there previously was no matter, but it's not creating something out of nothing.
Great point.
If I remember correctly from chem class, matter can not be created or destroyed.
Now I'm caught in a vicious thought cycle, if energy can generate matter, and matter is needed to generate energy, which came first, the energy or the matter?
-------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous Narcotics Anonymous Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365. God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin. Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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Nunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Chemy]
#8537210 - 06/18/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Y'all are missing a very important angle of the assertions made by the article:
Quote:
But Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck College, London, said it failed to take account of a complex range of social, economic and historical factors.
Lest we forget academia is primarily a secular institution, so is in any wonder that the academic elites will profess a certain cultural ideology?
Not to mention that IQ is also correlated with the amount of education *cough* indoctrination *cough* that a person receives, and that the definition of "intelligence" is in iteself a very slippery thing.
In an oral, preliterate culture, memory capacity would be synonymous with "intelligence", whereas in our culture logical-reasoning (non-mystical thinking) is the definition of intelligence.
-------------------- "This day is a lover..." ~Rumi
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blewmeanie
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
#8537608 - 06/18/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nunbuh_Chrubble said:
Not to mention that IQ is also correlated with the amount of education *cough* indoctrination *cough* that a person receives, and that the definition of "intelligence" is in iteself a very slippery thing.
Did I read that right, did you really just equate a lack of religious belief in someone with a greater than average intelligence to indoctrination by education?
The more intelligent someone is, and the more education they have had, the less likely they are to accept anything as fact without at least some supporting evidence There simply is no evidence of god, and there never will be aside from unprovable personal experience. This all seems like a pretty basic concept to me.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
#8537648 - 06/18/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nice bulk grow! I would wager that you got great results using logic and scientific methods.
I would also pit the top five skeptics here against the top five UFO nuts, Jesus-Freaks, Crop Circle-jerks or whatever in an intelligence /spacial reasoning / logic test for BIG MONEY.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
#8537649 - 06/18/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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You're incorrect. IQ is not affected by the amount of education one receives.
Also:
Quote:
Lest we forget academia is primarily a secular institution
What we are discussing is the reason why this is the case.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#8537670 - 06/18/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion said: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence
As so rightly said in another thread by another intelligent guy, being intelligent does not equal being right....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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johnm214
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
#8537970 - 06/18/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Afroshroomerican said: Nonetheless, with math/science etc, there are still things that cannot be predicted with infallible accuracy (unless you want to head over to the predicting Earthquakes thread).
Then we have "statistics" that can HELP us predict occurrences. But these are never 100% accurate. They are just rationalizations. The universe doesn't conform to us; we conform to it. \
Nope, math is natural and perfect.
If you messed up a calculation you either did something wrong or are confusing percision with accuracy.
If I use the value of pi to be 3 and carve out my circle based on that I'll be accurate, but it won't look much like a circle.
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zouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: johnm214]
#8538073 - 06/18/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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QuantumReality
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#8540335 - 06/19/08 10:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Intelligent people less likely to believe in God
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blewmeanie
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
#8540377 - 06/19/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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zouden said: Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.
How so? Math is nothing more than a system of symbols and rules used to predict the outcome or formation of various patterns.
The patterns would exist without us, but I dont see how an abstract insight into them would.
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BrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: blewmeanie]
#8540660 - 06/19/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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blewmeanie said:
Quote:
zouden said: Yes, I think maths is perfect - almost by definition - and it would still be truthful even if humans weren't around to use it.
How so? Math is nothing more than a system of symbols and rules used to predict the outcome or formation of various patterns.
The patterns would exist without us, but I dont see how an abstract insight into them would.
I think what you're shooting for here is, math can be used perfectly. Math is a language....nothing more, nothing less. English too, can be used perfectly. Although usually English is used to describe abstract thoughts, so when someone says something has been described perfectly, another person might not view it as such.
Math, like any other language, can also be used creatively. Ever seen a tee shirt that says "Want to..." and with the integral of 2xdx, bounded from 10 to 13. Its a joke meaning 'Want to 69?"
-------------------- Word to your mom.
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