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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8534873 - 06/17/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Intelligent people are less likely to believe anything they are told verbatim I would say, I can't see god being any different.

I fear that in this post religious society we live in that when the dumb folks stop believing in god too there will be nothing to force them to think with any forethought or regard for their fellow human beings.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8534922 - 06/17/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Afroshroomerican said:
\
Maybe this selection of individuals are pompous intellectuals who feel that they are above a higher power because of their intelligence? 

Let's not forget that everyone who has a XYZ IQ isn't running to get it tested/validated by some committee or join a group.




yep, I agree.

I think people who are smarter often have more education and can reject some textual-based religious claims easier as fanciful.

The outcome doesn't make much sense really unless there is some confounding factor.


There is no reason to disbelieve in god with more education, and so I'm not sure why the reverse would be true unless inteligence is correlated w/ social conditioning.

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OfflineBoots
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535425 - 06/17/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I guess it makes sense if you think about it.

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Boots]
    #8535500 - 06/17/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

1) Einstein was an agnostic-theist; he believed that the great order to the universe MUST have arisen from a divine creator, but no he did NOT believe in organized religion.

Quote:

But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive




http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einprayr.htm (This can be found on any other host of sites upon doing a google search)

2) IMO Atheism is as unfounded as everyone following an organized religion.  IF we want to get logical then let's consider:  What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?

Again, most highly intelligent people don't get their IQs tested (this is evident when you look at the host of influential scientists/engineers/linguists/mathematicians/philosophers etc).  So these studies are blah.


--------------------
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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8535574 - 06/17/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Shhhh! I'm :fishing:




Ironic then that you're gloating that unbelievers are more intelligent than believers :tongue:



Quote:

zouden said:
You can't use historical characters like Newton because back then pretty much everyone believed in God. And Einstein didn't believe in God, as has been discussed here many times before.




Einstein believed in a God, there was a thread on this recently that you could search for.

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Afroshroomerican]
    #8535644 - 06/17/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

2) IMO Atheism is as unfounded as everyone following an organized religion.  IF we want to get logical then let's consider:  What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?




Did someone discover fire, or was it invented? The concept that the universe needs a creator is purely human. It is just as likely that the universe was created by random happenstance as it was created by some all mighty being. Why does the universe need a reason to exist? Can't it just simply be?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535657 - 06/17/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Which concept isn't "purely human"?


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8535662 - 06/17/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Which concept isn't "purely human"?




Mathematics. Scientific facts.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535665 - 06/17/08 11:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Getting back on topic: Johnm214, you're educated, intelligent and religious - but I think you're the exception rather than the rule. You don't seem to be as rabidly religious as other people I know, in any case.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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You know... I'm not a blind man
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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535678 - 06/17/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

What invention has lacked an inventor?  I can't think of one.  Is it really logical to believe that something arose from nothing?  An effect without a cause?




Did someone discover fire, or was it invented?




Fire was also discovered, regardless of whether it was invented or not. Even with fire not being invented, what you quoted, "What invention has lacked an inventor?," isn't affected or countered. Either way, fire is an effect which always has a cause.


Quote:

It is just as likely that the universe was created by random happenstance as it was created by some all mighty being.




What values did you take into consideration to arrive at this consensus? I'd like to read the report, which I hope has been peer-reviewed, if you have it handy.


Quote:

Why does the universe need a reason to exist? Can't it just simply be?




Regardless of your being defensive for the universe, it, and everything else, does have a cause and a reason for existing. Not knowing what that is is not paramount to there being none.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8535679 - 06/17/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Which concept isn't "purely human"?




Mathematics. Scientific facts.




These concepts exist without a mind to think about them?  Note: not that the facts do not exist a priori, they do.  But thinking about them, i.e. the concepts themselves, cannot exist without a mind.

Which came first, the man or the math? :wink:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535690 - 06/17/08 11:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Getting back on topic: Johnm214, you're educated, intelligent and religious - but I think you're the exception rather than the rule. You don't seem to be as rabidly religious as other people I know, in any case.




Interesting comment, zouden.  What, in your mind, constitutes a religion?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8535694 - 06/17/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Note:  :fishing:  me too.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535697 - 06/17/08 11:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."




Einstein always carefully used the term "personal God" to distinguish between a pop-culture concept of God being a creator separate from its creation, which he disagreed with, and his own conception of a God which is all in all. He disliked religion, but was clear in his own theistic belief. The "clarification" you used is out of context.

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." - Einstein

Edited by Disco Cat (06/18/08 12:01 AM)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535722 - 06/17/08 11:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So we see that, according to Einstein, science or its admiration can be religious.  Science can be a religion?!?!  WTF!

Surely Einstein must be wrong.

What would Copenhagen say?  What would Skoal say?


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535762 - 06/18/08 12:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here is a more appropriate clarification of Einstein's view:

Quote:

My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.




He affirms that he believes in "a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life," and states that a system of reward and punishment, which he equated with general religion, isn't needed in the picture.


One more. Notice that the term "personal God," which he always uses when expressing a disagreement with the God concept, is absent from his explanation here, once again affirming his belief in a God, but not a "creator separate from its creation" God.
Quote:

I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws.




Einstein also had a particular affinity for Jesus.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8535768 - 06/18/08 12:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What would Copenhagen say?



"Without opening this box, we cannot tell if God is real or not. Until the box is opened, God is both real and imaginary at the same time" :psychsplit:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535774 - 06/18/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I have found no better expression than "religious" for confidence in the rational nature of reality, insofar as it is accessible to human reason. Whenever this feeling is absent, science degenerates into uninspired empiricism.




Added after edit.

Interesting man, Einstein.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: zouden]
    #8535778 - 06/18/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

Well done.  :smile:


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Religious Belief Inversely Proportional to Intelligence [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8535795 - 06/18/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Fire was also discovered, regardless of whether it was invented or not. Even with fire not being invented, what you quoted, "What invention has lacked an inventor?," isn't affected or countered. Either way, fire is an effect which always has a cause.




You're right. I'm splitting hairs about the definition of "invention". I'm assuming fire to be a physical concept that has always existed...it was just waiting to be discovered by SOMEONE, not a specific person. Which I suppose could be true of all inventions.

The point of the matter is the comparison to the universe.....was it "created" by a single person, or are we, humanity, the ones discovering it. One implies the existence of an intelligent design behind it all, the other assumes that everything was here to begin with, and we are simply explorers in a vast realm of the unknown.

Was fire "created" by God? Or is it simply the result of atoms releasing energy as they combust with oxygen molecules?

My point is that its a 50/50 chance, no matter how you look at it. There are only two possible situations.

1) Every physical observation we have made is a result principals and laws created by a divine being, aka God.

2) The things which we observe are laws that have been created by the random merging of energy and particles. The universe can't be purely chaos...it has to have rules, but its perfectly acceptable that these rules may have come about arbitrarily.

No amount of scientific evidence can prove or disprove either of these theories. All I'm suggesting is that there may not be ANY divine power behind ANYTHING we've ever observed. Maybe it just simply exists.....is that so hard to accept?


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