Home | Community | Message Board

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Proton radiation and Evolution
    #8533095 - 06/17/08 09:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well I was reading my bible tonight (or watching i guess) and the great Lord 'Carl Sagan' told me that proton radiation ... (the stuff that flies through space as a result of exploding supernovas and can penetrate through rocks, mountains and entire planets. Oh and the same stuff that is responsible for the constant, low static picked up by Geiger counters) ... can affect organisms in a minor way, particularly by causing mutations. Take for example that recent finding of the bacterial mutation in an otherwise totally 'enclosed' experiment. He then went on to tell me that this kind of mutation could be responsible for significant, otherwise 'random' mutations in evolutionary biology. In this way, the advancement of life is inextricably connected to the cosmos 'billions and billions' of miles away.

I normally take everything Carl Sagan has to say as pure and objective truth, but i thought i'd check in to see what you guys think of that statement. Are mutations in evolutionary biology (at least in some small part) a result of 'star stuff' bombarding us from the other side of the universe?

My bible is Carl Sagan's 1980 documentary 'Cosmos' by the way.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: undergrounder]
    #8536279 - 06/18/08 05:54 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Of course. In fact, cosmic radiation can cause cancer. It's quite a remarkable thing to consider, you could be hit by a particle shot out of a dying star, and it'll turn your life upside down.

But most mutations aren't caused by cosmic radiation, they're caused by the inherent error rate of the DNA replication process.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8537238 - 06/18/08 02:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What kind of radiation is DNA mutation most susceptible to?

I ask, because most radiation obviously comes from our sun.  But he is talking about proton specifically.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: DieCommie]
    #8537638 - 06/18/08 04:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

That's a good question. Gamma radiation causes breaks, which cannot be recovered, while UV radiation causes thymine dimers which can be recovered.
High energy cosmic radiation? I don't know, they didn't seem fit to cover it in my undergrad classes.

Note that unless the radiation hits your testes you won't pass the mutations on to your children.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8539658 - 06/19/08 04:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So basically nudists are in the most trouble then.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8539701 - 06/19/08 05:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
That's a good question. Gamma radiation causes breaks, which cannot be recovered, while UV radiation causes thymine dimers which can be recovered.
High energy cosmic radiation? I don't know, they didn't seem fit to cover it in my undergrad classes.

Note that unless the radiation hits your testes you won't pass the mutations on to your children.





Well, UV radiation can do more than that.  The stuff I'm aware of is all indirect, but its still the cause... UV rads can increase the reactive/oxized species in the cell and lead to genetic damage indirectly as well as through the dimers.

And single stranded breaks can also be fixed, as I'm sure you know, so its not like the UV induced dimers are necceasarily less harmful than ss breaks by other radiation.  I know double stranded breaks can also be repaired, in mechanisms similar to the genetic crossover in meiosis, but are much more likely than ss breaks to lead to serious problems.


Just saying that I don't think thiamine dimers are neccesarily better due to damage control than ss breaks or whatnot due to error correction- though they may well be in the end, don't really know (we get taught so much about what can/does happen but less about what will/relative liklihoods of the processes, lol- at leas tin my experience.)




As for most mutations being caused by dna replication errors, do you have a source for that?  I wonder if there's a net difference in the harm caused?  Either way, you still need a combination of errors to lead to problems, but I wonder if there are any models or studies showing the risk of common carcinogens as compared to natural mutations?  I really don't know if the rates are comparible.

Certainly replication errors are pretty rare on the kb scale, but there is a bunch of polymerase activity going on in the endothelial cells at most time, which are also the most heavily damaged from carcinogens to boot.  hmmm...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: johnm214]
    #8539724 - 06/19/08 05:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I guess our germline cells are so well protected (at least they are for women) from the environment that they'd be one of the least likely cells to be affected by external mutagens. Even people with testicular/ovarian cancer probably don't always pass mutations on to their children, since not all of the tissue in the ovaries actually contain germline DNA.

I don't have sources for any of this, it's just idle speculation.

So the question is, when your child gets a mutation in her DNA that you don't carry (assuming you're the legitimate parent)... at what point did the mutation occur? Is it in your germline, or did it occur during recombination? Or perhaps at the zygote stage? In fact I'd say the zygote stage is the time when she'd be most susceptible to inherent mutations. There's a baseline mutation rate for cell division, but when she's an adult, a mutation in a single cell isn't very important, compared to when she's an 8-cell zygote.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineVisionary Tools
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: wisp]
    #8539756 - 06/19/08 05:41 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
So basically nudists are in the most trouble then.




Nudists have other things to worry about than various radiation.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8539836 - 06/19/08 06:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I guess our germline cells are so well protected (at least they are for women) from the environment that they'd be one of the least likely cells to be affected by external mutagens. Even people with testicular/ovarian cancer probably don't always pass mutations on to their children, since not all of the tissue in the ovaries actually contain germline DNA.

I don't have sources for any of this, it's just idle speculation.

So the question is, when your child gets a mutation in her DNA that you don't carry (assuming you're the legitimate parent)... at what point did the mutation occur? Is it in your germline, or did it occur during recombination? Or perhaps at the zygote stage? In fact I'd say the zygote stage is the time when she'd be most susceptible to inherent mutations. There's a baseline mutation rate for cell division, but when she's an adult, a mutation in a single cell isn't very important, compared to when she's an 8-cell zygote.




by not carry, you mean its not in your somatic cells, not part of your overall genome?


The thing w/ women though is that they have a lifetime of ovaries sitting around.  So lowlevel background carcinogenesis can be pretty signifigant.

Since make sperm constantly, with error correction possible for the germ cells in the meantime and when/prior to when they undergo their first mitosis in the process to producing sperm, but  women have a lifetime of ova waiting to accumulate mutations, I'd say the women's ova would be the most likely culprit- especially in an older woman.  You get one of those funky ova and good luck.

I'm sure that's why old women have a high rate of mutations in their offspring (nondisjunction probably doesn't count though).


So i'd have to say its most likely the ova get damaged during the womans life and lead to mutations in the offspring.

I guess during zygote stage there could be bad consequences lik eyou said, but the high error correction rate o f the polymerases would seem to take care of must mistakes.  I wonder if there has been any studies on this?  Probably hard to figure out where teh mutation came from, even if you could somehow collect rejected or whatever zygotes.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: johnm214]
    #8539878 - 06/19/08 07:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, we're only just getting to the stage where it's feasible to scan someone's DNA for mutations, let alone try and figure out where the mutation came from. In a decade or so, there'll be so much more information at our fingertips for this kind of study.
I like your theory on the ova sustaining damage. Perhaps that's why when women get pregnant after 40 there's an increased risk of things like Down's syndrome?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8539927 - 06/19/08 07:30 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps.

Since downs syndrom is just the two chromatids not seperating in meiosis, I don't know if this is really relevant to a discussion on genetic mutation.

I don't know why its correlated with age, but I'd imagine the cell itself could just be breaking down; perhaps the microtubules start sucking or something like that.

Still, I just checked wikipedia and centromere's are made of DNA too, so I guess nondisjunction could be an indicator of DNA health, perhaps, but I really don't know.

On a lark I searched for childhood cancer and maternal age and found this graph which showed a correlation in maternal age with risk of developing some type of leukemia or soemthing.  There was one confounding factor mentioned in the abstract that I didn't understand though, cuz I didn't feel like reading the whole study

Quote:


Figure 2. Rate ratios for maternal age (reference group 28-31 yr) with corresponding 95% CIs, estimated using a maternal age–child birth cohort model. Maternal age classes are denoted by the first year. CCRP, 1980 to 1997.



http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/16/2/347

Maybe I'll look later and see if this is similar to other genetic diseases arising from genetic mutations

I bet this is totally a result of induced mutations too:  since the mother's eggs are pretty constant through her life, I'd imagine the only thing that changes is how long the eggs are exposed to mutagenic things

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: johnm214]
    #8543221 - 06/20/08 01:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

wow... i didn't realise the convo would be so in-depth so thanks everyone!

so basically while proton radiation might affect you, other types of radiation would probably cause more mutations..

.. So going on the idea that some form of radiation caused the first 'mutation' of a living organism, then UV would be the more obvious candidate..

Just in a general sense, are genetic mutations required for evolution? Is that the way evolution 'happens'? and if so..

Could you say that apart from all the obvious things that support life (particular elements, proteins, complex molecules), that for life to evolve you also need a source of radiation?


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: undergrounder]
    #8543253 - 06/20/08 01:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

yep, evolution comes from mutations

No you really don't need radiation for evolution, but it may help, as their are many natural carcinogenic chemicals.


One thing to keep in mind is that almost every single mutation will be detrimental or of no consequence.  Very rare to get something that is helpful.

I don't really know much about "proton radiation" so I"ll let others address that.

As for the first mutation, I really don't know.

If you mean the same thing tripsis asked, then I'd say its likely some chemical or simple mistake in the DNA reproduction machinery (such as in my avatar).

If you mean after the kid was born, I'd still say its more likely some random mutation from the rep. machinery causes the first mutation, but just a wild guess.  Sunlight can certainly cause many, as can oxygen and oxygenated species.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: johnm214]
    #8543315 - 06/20/08 02:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So going on the idea that some form of radiation caused the first 'mutation' of a living organism



That's probably not true, because simple DNA replication introduces mutations. It's not error-free.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: johnm214]
    #8543380 - 06/20/08 04:23 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

oh ok... i see... i could ask what causes those errors in the DNA process, i'm sure there's a simple and benign cause, but it's going off the point...

Anyway, as far as i've read, while evolution is the process of natural selection and passing down of adaptive traits, for there even to be a difference in the first place is the role of a 'random mutation'? (and where i use random, you could insert 'mutation - DNA induced, from radiation or otherwise)

Anyway another question.. This involves DNA, the theoretical creation of life in very simple organisms and the order in which this occurs.

First, what comes first, lifeor evolution.. It seems to me possible that you can have living things that don't evolve (ie: they self-replicate), but you can't have something that evolves without it being alive to carry out the process of natural selection.

Secondly, as far as i can tell, simple-cell division requries DNA. I don't know this, im just assuming that a self-replicating cell would need to read the instructions for replicating itself from DNA. It couldn't in effect take a picture of itself in its current state and then decide to replicate that. That process would require complexity and abilities that the simple cell wouldn't have. No, it must read how to build a copy of itself from reading its own DNA.

So the simplest self-replicating cell has DNA, but without necessarily evolving. BUT anything that DOES have DNA, which in turn is NECESSARILY open to mutations, be it chemical, radiation or otherwise, must be open to the forces of natural selection and evolution. Where there is DNA, there are mutations, and where there are mutations, there is evolution.

So evolution (packaged in DNA) comes BEFORE life. At the very least, The very first living thing that ever existed, must have both DNA, and the ability to replicate itself using that DNA. From that one cell comes every form of life that has ever been known.

But then the question, where did that very first simple strand of DNA come from, and what was its use? if not for replication? Does this mean that some non-living things have DNA? And if they do, what could they use it for, if they're not alive?

sorry i think i'm going somewhere with all this, but just help me out..


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Edited by undergrounder (06/20/08 04:30 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: undergrounder]
    #8543436 - 06/20/08 05:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Does this mean that some non-living things have DNA?



Yes, viruses have DNA, and they aren't living. Also, RNA probably came before DNA, and RNA has the ability to replicate itself even without any cellular machinery. So that's probably how the whole shindig got started.

As for your question about what came first: life or evolution... I'd say they both appeared at the same time and they are inextricably linked. Life is a product of evolution, and evolution is a feature of life.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8543443 - 06/20/08 05:23 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I was joking with my nudist comment...

Anyway, I would guess that evolution actually came first as evolution isn't restricted to life, e.g. the universe is constantly evolving but life (at least on earth) has been around for a finite time.

RNA possibly formed through chemical reactions alone, as it has been shown to be possible.

Edited by wisp (06/20/08 08:27 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8543460 - 06/20/08 05:46 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

tripsis: i would define evolution of the universe as being different from the evolution of organisms, although it's a neat comparison, i wonder if there's anything in it.

Aren't viruses living? My only source is wiki here, but it seems like there is a bit of a debate about whether or not viruses are living organisms. As a total newb in this debate, it seems to me that if something is replicating and evolving, then it is living. By this strict definition of living, i can't see how simply possessing cells is a necessary condition for being alive, what is your opinion?

I'm interested in this RNA... I'll look into it further. I won't bore you with more questions without doing a bit of research.. one particular sentence that jumps out is "Like DNA, most biologically active RNAs including tRNA, rRNA, snRNAs and other, non-coding, RNAs are...". I assume that this means that there are biologically INactive RNAs floating around... If tripsis is right and it can be formed through chemistry alone, that would be very cool.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: undergrounder]
    #8543633 - 06/20/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Virii aren't living because they don't fulfill the requirements of what is living. The characteristics of life are:

  • organisation - cellular or molecular order
  • energy utilisation/metabolism
  • maintenance of an internal constancy/homeostasis
  • reproduction, heredity, evolution
  • sensitivity - the ability to sense and respond to their environment/stimuli


Virii can evolve and have a binary sense of their environment (either inside host or not). What defines them as non-living though is the fact that they have no metabolism and they cannot reproduce without hijacking the hosts cell. They are incapable of manufacturing proteins themselves, so without a host are inert.


Also RNA per se hasn't actually been formed through chemical reactions alone, but synthetic polynucleotides very similar to RNA have been. Some of these are capable of self-replication, sometimes imperfectly replicating too, thus over time "evolving".

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #8543746 - 06/20/08 09:28 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said: RNA has the ability to replicate itself even without any cellular machinery. So that's probably how the whole shindig got started.




Theoretic ability outside of living systems.

The ribozymes we know of no are pretty crappy from either a normal polymerase or practical point of view, and can't  replicate so much as a gene.  I believe the record is a turn or so of the helix, so that's certainly a limitation on the demonstrated ability of RNA to replicate itself without the normal stuff

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,649
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: wisp]
    #8543748 - 06/20/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Proton radiation is like a big bouncy ball projectile. It has a tendency to bounce off stuff you throw it at. It is easily stopped but mother nature tends to throw them harder than any other particle. Sheer velocity might give it quite some penetration, but its in essence a bouncy ball.

Neutron radiation is like a cannon ball, it has penetration and the ability to turn stuff it hits radioactive.

Alpha particles combine the two, not much penetration, but they do tremendous damage locally, like a huge bouncy ball with a cannonball core. A sheet of paper is usually all it takes to stop alpha particles, but the paper itself gets messed with to no end.

If you have a strand of DNA and a particle of radiation, an alpha particle will have the highest probability to do damage. Its biggest and heaviest.

You can only take half as much alpha radiation as you can take neutron & gamma radiation before you die. Alpha is easily stopped BECAUSE it messes with stuff so effectively, neutrons tend to pass through it without touching. I';m not sure how things are for proton radiation but because itgs a charged particle I suspect its definitely a shover and pusher as an alpha particle is and as such, is more "toxic" than neutrons.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: Asante]
    #8543924 - 06/20/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

oh yeah i actually meant neutron radiation by the way, i think that's what Carl said now that you mention it.

tripsis that's a pretty extensive list, i don't see why existing in a host cell or not would disqualify something as living, cell or not, it's just an environment, we can only live inside a world with oxygen that we can breath, if you take us out into space, we die... but that doesn't mean we're not alive because we depend on a host earth.

Viruses do, however, evolve... i can't see how something dead can evolve through genetic mutation and survival of the fittest if it's not alive in at least some point of its 'life-cycle'.

Anyway if that list is to be taken as gospel, then would a virus be considered alive when it IS in a host cell? or are all the functions of its replication, abuses of the host cell's own functions? wiki on this point is kind of unclear :frown:

How something could go from technically 'dead' to 'alive' after mere change of environment, then perhaps the difference between life and death is only the correct mixture in the chemical soup.. on the other hand, if it abuses the replication function of the host cell somehow, then that itself is interesting to think about..


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: undergrounder]
    #8543949 - 06/20/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anyway if that list is to be taken as gospel




I wouldnt go there.  Its a man made list with arbitrary requirements.  Man kind can choose to define life in any way, and you can choose to define life in any way.  Nature however knows no distinction between life and non-life.  Life is a man made concept.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: DieCommie]
    #8543966 - 06/20/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Life is a man made concept.




True, and good point.. i wonder though, because red blood cells are alive and yet they don't evolve and attack the insides of our bloodstreams and try to escape and take over the world, same thing for every one of the billions and billions of 'living' thigns that live in us. It seems odd that some things live only in the service of others, while other things take ownership of their own life and the lives that work together to keep it alive. It seems stange that 99.99% of the world's 'living' things live in slavery to the other >0.01%. In that scenario you would say that life is more than simply reproduction, metabolism, cellular structure and the like.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,649
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: undergrounder]
    #8544306 - 06/20/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

actually meant neutron radiation by the way, i think that's what Carl said now that you mention it.





I think he meant proton radiation :awesome:

Free neutrons have a mean life of approximately 15 minutes, so even if you hurl a neutron at near light speed, it will only travel 15 light minutes before it disintegrates, so not even our Sun's neutrons reach us.

Protons however, weight for weight, are the major component of most stars. If they decay at all they have a halflife of at least 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 years. (10 35 Y) Thats more than enough time to reach us from a galaxy away if they were blown at us with a pea shooter :grin:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

Edited by Asante (06/20/08 09:10 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: wisp]
    #8545185 - 06/20/08 05:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Virii aren't living because they don't fulfill the requirements of what is living.

Please don't take the following as an argument against what you just posted.  I agree with everything you said.  I find it amazing that a jar of virus "salt" is not alive by our definitions, yet these same viruses can die if left in an unhealthy environment.  (Again, I'm not debating against the definitions.  I find the complexity of the system of life to be absolutely beautiful.  In this case, so close to being alive that it can die, yet still not close enough.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineundergrounder
fluffy bunny
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Sydney Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Proton radiation and Evolution [Re: Asante]
    #8545837 - 06/20/08 10:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I think he meant proton radiation :awesome:





Whatever it was, it came from other stars, could penetrate through mountains and made a Geiger counter go "cracklecracklecracklebipcrackle"


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why evolution is ignorant of simple biology
( 1 2 3 all )
Buckeye Oysters 4,002 57 12/04/10 01:53 PM
by EntheogenicPeace
* Evolution, specializtion, and natural selection SeussA 1,206 7 10/02/05 12:36 PM
by trendal
* Evolution question... lamarboarder1 1,229 7 10/09/05 09:17 AM
by phi1618
* Evolution is a lie
( 1 2 all )
OsculateOfDemise 1,984 20 06/02/08 04:51 PM
by zouden
* Human evolution
( 1 2 3 all )
BlimeyGrimey 4,016 51 03/30/09 06:42 AM
by johnm214
* Evolution is bull
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Ego Death 14,187 98 05/28/08 09:21 PM
by johnm214
* Darwin´s evolution theory - debatable?
( 1 2 all )
Endlessness 3,905 23 05/10/08 04:56 AM
by Seuss
* Evolution
( 1 2 3 all )
newuser1492 4,802 57 10/08/05 03:54 PM
by H_Wrabbit

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: trendal, automan, Northerner
2,691 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 12 queries.