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Invisiblejohnm214
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Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions?
    #8530638 - 06/16/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Friend has a desktop that was recently moved from another apartment and encountered problems.

When attempting to boot windows xp, computer sometimes suceeds, sometimes doesn't.

When it suceeds, it works fine.

When it doesn't, it displays error messages that friend didn't write down, unfortunately.  It sometimes boots automatically into safemode, without user direction.  It also sometimes displays an error message atop an old "desktop image (that friend doesn't use anymore)" detailing some general problem with windows- again not written down :foreheadslap:.


Any suggestions?

I tried unplugging and reattaching all the power supply and data cables- no difference.

I was thinking we'd just reformat and reinstal windows, and buy a new hard disk if that doesn't help.

Additional info:  no clicking or abnormal sounds come from hardrive/computer.  Fans work.  Computer's disk is several years old.  Was recently moved in a car several miles, supposedly gently, and so that could be a problem presumably.  There was additionally a lighting storm recently, but there is a power strip that friend "claims" has surge protection.  Computer itself seems fine upon inspection (physically) and powersupply seems to work reliably as evidenced by fans, CD drive, and motherboard apparently getting power.

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OfflineAshford420
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8530665 - 06/16/08 05:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

My computer does that. I fixed it by messing with the wires on the inside so there in the right position. I think I have a short. So that might be the problem or not.

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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: Ashford420]
    #8531331 - 06/16/08 08:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

>Computer's disk is several years old

Could be the problem and so could a hundred other things. I would suggest running a repair using a XP install disk and see if that clears it up. I can't imagine a HDD being several years of age to be of any significant data storage capabilities, so a new HDD is probably a really good option.

You could leave the old disk alone, buy a new HDD, install Windows, then transfer all old data from the HDD that isn't booting correctly. From there you can simply toss the old HDD or keep it as a backup.

If your friend can afford it, tell him to buy a small OEM 60-80GB HDD for the OS and another larger capacity HDD for the important data. I run a 200 GB for my OS and programs, but keep all my important data on my 500GB.

Good luck to you.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: Wronguy]
    #8531478 - 06/16/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks so much for the suggestions.

Do hardrives die in stages?  i.e. could the hardrive be messed up and simply not working some days but working another?  Or is it more likely that their was some data loss on the move and a simple reformat would work?

About the disk... Since the person was able to start the computer after the trouble, I got them to back up all their data allready, and they're good to go and have no need to preserve the disk's data anymore.  They also don't really download or use their computer much except for word processing and internet, so they'd be fine w/ simply buying a 50$ hardrive or whatever's cheapest.  So that certainly simplifies things.

Still, they're paying student loans and broke, so don't want to buy a new hardrive if there's a chance it could just be data damage/loss/damage to the hardrive during the move and a reformat/reinstal could fix it.

Is it possible to damage a hardrive while moving without much trauma?  Vibrations and such?  Likeley?

Thanks again everybody

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8532636 - 06/17/08 05:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I would reseat the memory, all of the cards, cpu, and cpu heatsink.  These are the typical culprits that shake loose when being moved.

Also, make certain that none of the wires have shifted into the fan blades preventing a fan from spinning.  Unlikely to be the issue, but I have seen it happen.

It is unlikely that moving the machine would have damaged the hard drive.  (Assuming it was a gentle move... if he dropped it down the stairs, that is a different matter...)

Hard drives can fail in stages.  Look to see what type of drive it is and then check for a test utility on the manufacturers site.  There are usually non-destructive tests that can be performed on the drive to detect failures.

You can also take a soft pencil eraser to the contacts on the memory and cards to clean off any oxidation.

If you remove the heatsink from the cpu, be sure to clean off the old thermal compound with alcohol wipe and add new thermal compound before reinstalling.

My guess is that if the move was causal, reseating stuff should fix the problem.


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OfflineRuNE
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8532934 - 06/17/08 08:58 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'd just go with the suggestions, and get a cheap, small new HDD.  They're very cheap now.
A dying HD can be a real pain in the ass.  I had to deal with one for a few months before I narrowed it down.  It would pass all kinds of HD test with flying colors, and would work perfect after a format.  At first, I thought it was a loose cable (which actualy did 'fix' it at first).  A few weeks later it started corrupting again, so we changed the RAM ($), formated again.  Worked like a beauty then acted up again....changed the PSU ($) this time, full tests, worked great again.
Then it was brought to me again.  :thumbdown:
At that point it was either the HD, or the Mobo, so I decided to replace the cheaper part (even tho it was 'working' perfectly) and that fixed it.  I could hardly believe it was the hard drive.  In retrospect, I should have tossed the HD the 2nd time.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: RuNE]
    #8573218 - 06/28/08 01:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

OK, new problems.  Started to reinstal windows, and found the problem. apparently friend had two hardrives.  Hardrive one used to have OS on it, but failed, so hardrive 2 was added and installed Win XP on it.  When this, HDD 2, no longer worked, causing the instant problems apparently,  the computer attempted to boot hardrive 1 again, which gave the error and the old desktop image- so mystery solved as to why the old desktop image appeared.

However, in trying to install windows on the old hardrive, hardrive 1 as hardrive 2 wasn't even visible in the windows installation screen, listed as unreachable or something, I was able to get through the first part of the installation.  It then said restart computer with floppy disk out (I presume they meant CD too, or what?).

Anyways, at restart w/out CD the computer ran into an error.

1st,
Quote:

TRAP 0000000D ========== GENERAL PROTECTION FAULT =======

tr=0028 cr0=00000011 cr2=00000000 cr3=00000000
gdt limit=03FF base=00017000 idt limit =07FF base=00017400

cs:eip=0008:0042744F ss:esp=0010:00061FED errcode=4010
flags = 00010003 Cy NoZr IntDis Down TrapDis
eax=7F101202 ebx=00401329 ecx=0000166C edx=534D0030
ds=0010 es=0010
edi=0047164F esi=00051D68 ebp=00061FF0 cr0=00000011
fs=0030 gs=0000


 
(copied from online, but trap number, gen prot fault, tr=, Base=, are all the same, so presume identical message)

This error came even after I attempted to boot directly from windows installation disk again, or whether attempted to continue with windows installation via hardrive boot.

2nd, something like "Disk boot failure Insert system disk and press enter.

Same as above

THen, and repeatedly:
Quote:

Windows could not start because of a computer disk hardware configuration problem.

Could not read from the selected boot disk. Check boot path and disk hardware.

Please check the Windows documentation about hardware disk configuration and your hardware reference manuals for additional information.





Same as above.  Pops up whether attempting to boot to hard drive or cd rom.  I looked at microsoft's website, however; they explain this is problems with:
Quote:

• The Default value in the [Boot Loader] section of the Boot.ini file is missing or invalid.
• Windows XP is not installed in the location specified in the Boot.ini file.
• The Ntoskrnl.exe file is missing or damaged.
• The partition path in the Boot.ini file is not set correctly.
• General hardware failure.



http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314477

What is most likely?  Since booting from CD or Hard drive gives same result, with correct BIOS settings to boot to CD when trying this way, I'm guessing the last one is the culprit, as wouldn't boot biles and whatnot not matter when booting to CD?




My question is:  What are the odds the computer is just screwed, as opposed to just the hardrive?


All components were reseated, and power/data cables reseated.  Boot configuration in BIOS checked, and attempted to boot first from HDD as well as CDROM and no change.


THe computer BIOS pops up fine, then, if trying to boot from CD, give the "Boot from CD Y?" or something, whether or not Y or any key is hit it stalls and goes to one of the errors, the last 2 now repeatedly after many tries and attempting to boot from HDD, to resume installation, or CD ROM.


What I'm worried about, is if the HDD was the only thing that was wrong, why would this effect booting to windows?  Shouldn't I be able to boot to the installation disk fine?  I even disconected the HDD and no change.


Caveat:  ghetto downloaded windows disks, however; they were working before, completed first half of installation and got to 'restart computer to continue installation part' and the disks were verified to boot correctly on another computer.


So why did the computer boot fine before, go through intial windows installation, including full drive format (long version), and then crap out?

Why is computer not booting to CD even if the hard drive is shot?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Basically trying to determine if buying new hardrive has a chance of working, decent chance, or if computer is screwed.  Also curious why hard drive failure could affect cd rom booting, presuming my tested ghetto installation disk isn't the culprit (boots fine on my computer and booted fine on computer at issue before it wen crazy)


Thanks

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8573424 - 06/28/08 03:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Why is computer not booting to CD even if the hard drive is shot?

Completely unplug the hard drives (data lines, power doesn't matter) and boot from optical and see if the problem persists.  If one of the hard drives has a bad controller (the board on the drive itself), and it shares an IDE bus with the optical drive, then it can pollute the data coming from the optical drive.

The more typical failure path is that the computer doesn't recognize the optical drive until the hard drive is unplugged (data cable).

One of the big bonuses with SATA is the data paths are independent from one another stopping the above from ever being an issue.

> Caveat:  ghetto downloaded windows disks, however; they were working before

Could be scratched media.  Try to boot the CDROM on another computer and see what happens. (oops, just re-read your post and caught this: boots fine on my computer... I will leave this tip in for others, but realize that you have already checked this one off the list.)

Usually, when I see a blue screen during install, it is bad memory.  If you have two sticks in the computer, try running on one, then the other.  Also, test different memory slots as well.

Oh!  Almost forgot, make certain the computer is unplugged from the network.  Not likely to be the problem, but one less thing to worry about.

Also, be sure you have reset BIOS to default settings and saved.  Sometimes corrupt BIOS can cause strange problems.

You might also try installing a free linux or bsd and see how that goes.  Not as a solution, but as a debugging tool... different error messages, etc.

(I'm brainstorming a bit here, so order is odd...)

Also, remove every card that you don't need from the computer... again, trying to narrow down possibilities.  If the thing works with no extras, then start adding them back, one at a time, and test.  When it finally starts to fail, you have found your bad device.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8573439 - 06/28/08 04:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

thanks a bunch for wading through that


I have tried disconecting the hardrive(s) and only using the cd rom drive, same problem, get the error messages.


For clarification, the error messages are not blue screens, but are black screens with white bios-like print.  Though the error message was detailed on a microsoft site so I don't know... 

I've got a cable that has a primary and slave on it and also one that has just the optical drive on it.

I tried to boot with the CD on the secondary cable, and the dual primary cable hooked up to the harddrive that works (primary position on cable) and no dice.  Then tried the dual cable with primary on the cd rom and nothing else conected, no dice.  THen tried the original single cable the cd rom was hooked up with but plugged that cable into the primary slot and tried, nothing.  Then put everything back to original position and nothing.


So I really don't know what else to do.  Jumpers are good, replugged/seated everything, and still get those error messages in varying conditions, though I didn't recognize any rhyme or reason. 

Lately I've just been getting the:

Quote:


Windows could not start because of a computer disk hardware configuration problem.

Could not read from the selected boot disk. Check boot path and disk hardware.

Please check the Windows documentation about hardware disk configuration and your hardware reference manuals for additional information.




Or:

Quote:

TRAP 0000000D ========== GENERAL PROTECTION FAULT =======

tr=0028 cr0=00000011 cr2=00000000 cr3=00000000
gdt limit=03FF base=00017000 idt limit =07FF base=00017400

cs:eip=0008:0042744F ss:esp=0010:00061FED errcode=4010
flags = 00010003 Cy NoZr IntDis Down TrapDis
eax=7F101202 ebx=00401329 ecx=0000166C edx=534D0030
ds=0010 es=0010
edi=0047164F esi=00051D68 ebp=00061FF0 cr0=00000011
fs=0030 gs=0000






Other things tried:  All possible combinations of memory in the motherboard (originally two sticks did every variation in every slot from one and two sticks in).

Jumpers on presumably good harddrive ok and in recommended position, read manual and as supposed to be.


So do you or anyone know if the problem is likely to be a hardrive problem, remember this hardrive is quite old and has failed before- wouldn't boot one day and was then on used as auxiliary storage after the second drive was installed.

Or is the problem likely to be something with the computer that's not worth fixing?


I just don't get why I'm getting errors relating to booting from the hardrive or windows when the cd rom is what's being booted from, and even when the hard drive is disconnected...

Though in retrospect I may just have gotten the general protection fault as in the above quote when the cdrom only was attached- can't remember.


The significance of the general protection fault and the cluster fuck of different error messages confuses me and makes me wonder if the motherboard just died or something?


One more thing: successfully ran check dsk windows utility before the system disk (HDD 2 in the above narative) finally crashed.  Bad sectors and whatnot, but whatever.


So should it be considered a loss?  Don't know what else to do.

Tried one other downloaded windows version and didn't work either, though it booted fine on my computer.... hmm

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8575927 - 06/28/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

wow, alot of posts today in science.
:bump:

Just wondering if anyone could give me any advice.

I'll bump this sucker up as its almost to the bottom and off the page.

Wondering if the computer is likely to be salvagable with a replaced harddrive, or whether the error messages likely indicate more systemic problems that would require scrapping the computer?



:bump:




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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8576481 - 06/29/08 05:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

If the thing dies with no hard drive hooked up at all when booting from optical, and the CDROM works on other computers (and used to work on this computer), then we can probably rule out the hard drives as being the cause.  (They may be bad, but are not causing the problem.)

You've tried one sick of memory at a time, in different sockets, and still get the same problem, so unless both sticks of memory are bad, then memory isn't the cause.

You could have a bad CDROM drive that is scrambling the data.  I've never seen this failure mode.  Usually bad optical drives don't read at all, or only read one kind of data (music, but not data, DVDs but not CDs, etc)

I always replace a hard drive if I find bad sectors.  Not because the hard drive is guaranteed to fail, but because I don't want to gamble with my data.

If you have removed everything you can and are still getting the error, then we are looking at CPU or logic board.

You might also try with a different keyboard... I have seen faulty keyboards cause some really odd problems, but this is not likely to be the issue.

You could always put a hard drive in from a working computer to see what happens... but be careful and consider the risks... I have seen bad logic boards blow good hard drives (though more often bad hard drives blow good logic boards).


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8579308 - 06/30/08 12:03 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If the thing dies with no hard drive hooked up at all when booting from optical, and the CDROM works on other computers (and used to work on this computer), then we can probably rule out the hard drives as being the cause.  (They may be bad, but are not causing the problem.)






Haven't tried cdrom on other computer.  I just doubt that's the cause cuz it worked minutes before it finally went down for the count(computer), when I was booting from the CD trying, and halfway suceeding, in reinstalling windows.



I may recomend trying a cheap shitty hardrive just to see if it will work.


This computer is only for webbrowsing and wordprocessing, so we're not talking high tek or powerful demands here.


If it will boot it will suffice for her.


We'll see....


Thank's so much for your help man.  I'd have paid like 50$ to get that opinion at a shop around here.  Thanks so much.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Problem booting friend's computer, suggestions? [Re: johnm214]
    #8579694 - 06/30/08 05:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Very welcome... though to be fair, the computer shop usually has spare parts laying around to test with which is where that $50 goes.


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