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WAR planned for Nov.
    #852796 -

Are you all stocked up with Potassium Iodide and plenty of food and drugs?

http://www.rense.com/general28/waras.htm

US General Tells Israelis War
Will Start By Late November
Special To World Tribune.com
8-29-2

TEL AVIV - The United States has told Israel that it will attack Iraq before the end of November.

Israeli military sources said a a senior U.S. military visited Israel earlier this week and toured facilities where the U.S. military has prepositioned equipment and weapons for an emergency in the Middle East.

The sources quoted a visiting U.S. general who heads army logistics as saying that Washington intends to strike the regime of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein by late November.

The Israeli sources said the two countries discussed Israel's role in any U.S. military attack, Middle East Newsline reported.

The general was quoted as saying that Washington's aim is to topple the Saddam regime. The general was not named.

In joint military discussions earlier this summer, Pentagon officials said Iraq would be only the first stop in the U.S. war on terror, an Israeli parliamentarian said.

Yuval Steinetz, chairman of the Knesset subcommittee on military doctrine, said he held talks with senior Pentagon officials in June regarding Washington's vision of a post-Saddam Middle East. Steinetz said Washington envisions a new order in the Middle East after Saddam is toppled and a democratic regime is installed.

"Iraq is the key but not the last stop [in the U.S. effort]," Steinetz said. "It is the first stop. After that there will be massive [U.S.] pressure on Syria and Iran to halt weapons of mass destruction programs and Syria's occupation of Lebanon."

U.S. military sources and analysts said Washington has sent tens of thousands of soldiers and military personnel to Gulf Arab states, Central and South Asia and the Levant. They said the force includes at least 1,000 military planners who have prepared for a rapid airlift of forces in case Washington decides on a war against Iraq.

Israeli officials have confirmed that both military and civilian officials from Israel and the United States have been discussing Washington's plans to attack Iraq. They said the talks have included the Bush administration's vision of a post-war Iraq and U.S. policy in the Middle East.

The military talks, the officials said, have focused largely on Israel's response to any Iraqi missile or air strike on the Jewish state. They said Israel and the United States have reviewed a series of scenarios of whether and how Israel would react to an Iraqi conventional or nonconventional missile strike.

Israeli military sources said the level of Israel's response would depend on the number of casualties and damage caused by any Iraqi strike.

The sources said Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has told the Bush administration that it would not pledge any policy of restraint as that during the 1991 Gulf war.

http://216.26.163.62/2002/ss_israel_08_29.html


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: amanita3]
    #852822 -

Calling it a war does it too much justice. It's pure terrorism.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: amanita3]
    #852826 -

Just enough time for CNN to commission a theme song...


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: amanita3]
    #853304 -

Bush will definately make sure he starts at least ONE war before his term is up. Wouldn't want to be upstaged by daddy, would he?


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #853805 -

at the moment world support, and even american support, is divided over US plans to attack Iraq

given that bush doesn't need approval from congress (i think i caught that on cnn a few days ago) to attack Iraq, how likely is bush going to start WW3 without support from allies?


Edited by foghorn (08/30/02 06:44 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #853901 -

Attacking military targets after declaring war is war. If we dropped nerve gas on civilians that would be terrorism. Wait that's what Saddam does...

On a good note. After we smite Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Iran will just be a quick hop over the border .


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (08/30/02 06:25 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #853918 -

Bush didn't start the war on terror. It began on 9-11-2001 when terrorists flew aircraft into the Pentagon, WTC and a field in Penn. To not defend our lives would be treasonous... It is his sworn duty to defend the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: amanita3]
    #853943 -

we have been known to start such wars during
our major holiday seasons to divert public attention away from the war....

if we do invade......please protest loudly....
we have zero right to invade them again.

fuck bush and his small penis


--------------------
***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: PGF]
    #853951 -

>>>>we have zero right to invade them again.

Iraq has repeatedly broken the surrender terms of the Gulf War. That gives us every right to go back and kick their @$$ even harder this time.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854016 -

Attacking military targets after declaring war is war.

No it isn't. A war is when TWO armies are fighting. Would you call you getting into the ring with Mike Tyson a boxing match?

If we dropped nerve gas on civilians that would be terrorism. Wait that's what Saddam does...

Well,apart from the fact that US sold him the gas, Bush at the time said there was no proof Saddam had done this and that the pictures were faked. The year after he gave Saddam a billion dollars.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854022 -

Iraq has repeatedly broken the surrender terms of the Gulf War. That gives us every right to go back and kick their @$$ even harder this time.

No they havn't. The weapons inspectors were withdrawn by the UN after the US compromised the group with american spies. The US led sanctions and constant bombing missions since 1991 have killed at least 600,000 Iraqi children under 5 and around another 600,000 adults from lack of basic medical supplies. Cancer rates throughout southern Iraq have exploded due to the remnants of the US depleted uranium weapons. At least 3 top level UN officials have resigned in protest at the american enforced sanctions calling them "crimes against humanity" and "genocide". The leader of the UN weapons inspections team has stressed that at least 98% of Saddams weapons were destroyed and it is next to impossible he has built anymore. You cannot store gas as it deactivates after 5 years.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854027 -

I think that we *might* be attacking Iraq on/prior 09/11/02...
Im afraid that if it happens that it may not truly be for the right reasons (stopping them from nukeing us etc...)

I'm afraid that there might be plans to "kill two birds with one stone" (finish George W's daddy's mission AND to hand Americans a sort off "kick in the face" one year after 911.


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>>Jammer>>

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Jammer]
    #854058 -

Attacking on 9-11 was a poll option on jerusalempost.com a few days ago too... I don't thnk we should now that I think about it. Let the people have their little ceremonies and cry and remember their lost loved ones on sept 11. We should attack on 9-12.

It is important to destroy Iraq's WOMD capabilities before they become nuclear. Their terror would reach an unprecedented level of horror if they obtain such capability . We need to act decisivly to prevent that.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854065 -

Their terror would reach an unprecedented level of horror if they obtain such capability . We need to act decisivly to prevent that.

What terror is this? Every hijacker on the Sep 11 plane was saudi arabian. So was Osama. Al-queda has most of it's support in Saudi. Why arn't the US attacking Saudi Arabia?

btw, what about the terror of the US enforced sanctions killing 600,000 iraqi kids under 5?

No-one with a clue seriously thinks Iraq has any weapons of mass destruction whatsoever - none of the weapons inspectors, none of the other people who have been on the ground over there. It's pure bullshit. The only people pushing the idea are Bush and the american media.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (08/30/02 08:26 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #854069 -

That's Iraq's own fault. Saddam knows what he needs to do to get the sanctions lifted but refuses to.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #854074 -

Not according to the UN official in charge of the sanctions. He resigned in disgust calling the US responsible for "crimes against humanity" and "genocide".




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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #854075 -

RE: "Every hijacker on the Sep 11 plane was saudi arabian"


Good point.

(however, as I heard it maybe two of them were from another country- none from Iraq)


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>>Jammer>>

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: amanita3]
    #854439 -

Attacking military targets after declaring war is war. If we dropped nerve gas on civilians that would be terrorism.


Oh how I agree, war is war, throw a rock at someone it will hurt.

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #858284 -

Alex123 writes:

Every hijacker on the Sep 11 plane was saudi arabian. So was Osama. Al-queda has most of it's support in Saudi. Why arn't the US attacking Saudi Arabia?

I am baffled when I see otherwise intelligent people smugly repeat this little mantra: "Osama and the hijackers are Saudis. Why not bomb Saudi Arabia?"

Osama and his merry band may have been BORN in Saudi Arabia, but all are vehemently anti-Saudi. None of them have lived in Saudi Arabia for years, in some cases for decades. They are all dedicated to the overthrow by violent means of the ruling house of Saud, because they believe the Saudi regime is corrupt and not Godly enough.

The Saudi government has been looking to capture and kill most of these guys for longer than the US has.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #858293 -

The Saudi government has been looking to capture and kill most of these guys for longer than the US has.

Nah man. Everyone knows the americans are almost completly out of control in Saudi and it's even more extreme than the Taliban. There was a major cleric from Saudi in the video chatting with Osama about the collapse of the towers. Osama probably has more support in Saudi than anywhere else - even the dreadfully corrupt government have realised they can't keep kissing americas ass and hold onto power anymore.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: PGF]
    #858305 -

Iraq is incredibly poor compared to America. We could literally undo that country if we wanted to. We wont, but we could. They havent done shit to us. It hasnt been proven Saddam even HAS chemical/biological weapons in numbers that would matter. His army was basically neutralized in Desert Storm in a few days.

There IS cause for concern, we need to know what hes doing. (where the fuck is the fucking CIA and all those 'inspectors' from the UN?).

We dont have a right to drop bombs on anyone who doesnt do what we want them to, especially without valid proof of it being hazardous to us. Let him run his own country and we'll run ours.

STOP FUCKING BOMBING POOR FOREIGNERS.

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: ]
    #858312 -

We could literally undo that country if we wanted to.

With 600,000 kids lying dead, 6000 more dying every month, little clean water or food I think the US has undone Iraq pretty comprehensively already. A bombing campaign is really just going to rearrange the rubble.

Great post tho.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #858318 -

Alex123

Osama probably has more support in Saudi than anywhere else ...

He probably does. The Saudi government has a lot of enemies, internal and external. I have no doubt a Saudi cleric was seen chatting with him.

Read what I wrote. Osama and Al qaeda are dedicated to the destruction of the RULING SAUDI REGIME, i.e. the royal house of Saud, not to the destruction of every Saudi citizen.

When I say the Saudi GOVERNMENT has been looking to kill Osama and his boys for longer than the US has, I meant just that. I did not mean that every Saudi cleric was looking to kill them.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #858398 -

Hey pinky..... Alex isn't interested in facts. His mind is made up. Not just here but in all of his posts that I've seen.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: amanita3]
    #858860 -

invasion may be looking more likely....but not before the elections in Nov though i wouldn't think  :grin: 


--------------------
(zhukov in a previous life....)

2SER FM underground radio

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #859706 -

Alex isn't interested in facts. His mind is made up. Not just here but in all of his posts that I've seen.

LOL. yeah if only i could become open minded like you eh? And join the NRA...that last bastion of open minded folk... :grin:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #860399 -

I didn't say you should become like me. I said facts don't interest you. It's not the same thing.

I stand by my statement.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #860721 -

luvdem, I wouldn't say facts are exactly high on your list of priorities either. Just keep agreeing with Pinky without forming an opinion of your own...it's easier that way.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #860845 -

said facts don't interest you.

Instead of repeating this like a mantra, could you point out one of the facts I've missed? Then i could address it.

Cheers.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #860954 -

Bush didn't start the war on terror. It began on 9-11-2001 when terrorists flew aircraft into the Pentagon, WTC and a field in Penn. To not defend our lives would be treasonous... It is his sworn duty to defend the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Saddam Hussein was not flying those planes. Bush is riding the momentum from the widely-supported war in Afghanistan to make an Iraq war feasable. I don't see how killing a few hundred thousand Iraqis once more will make the world a better place. The next big terrorist attack won't come from Saddam Hussein, anyway.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #861108 -

Amen to that.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #861245 -

Alex you are right I don't know why people can't see that this is all for the oil is so evident.
If the US takes down Iraq and puts a puppet leader the opec will loose there power.
And the US will have total control of oil prices.
I predict that we will see more and more of this types of conflicts in the years to come, as resources dwindle, we will even see wars for controlling water.
The weapons of mass destruction is a total bullshit excuse, how come other nations can have them like Israel, but non of the Arab countries can?
I wish no country will have them, but the fact is that there has to be a balance.
I wish that people will realize that it is our polices that is making other people hate us.
We are even trying to sabotage the earth meeting as we speak, when would this greed ever end.



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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Rono]
    #861514 -

In reply to:
luvdem, I wouldn't say facts are exactly high on your list of priorities either.



Well Rono, perhaps you could point out where. Should I indeed be wrong I'd welcome an opportunity to see.

In reply to:
Just keep agreeing with Pinky without forming an opinion of your own...it's easier that way.


I've had these opinions long before I was here on this board. When pinky has beat me to it and done a very nice job, why waste the space repeating things?

I'm surprised you would make such an absurd statement.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #861522 -

That was a blanket statement regarding all your posts I've seen here. I don't recall seeing you back up anything you've had to say.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #862347 -

I don't recall seeing you back up anything you've had to say.

Try opening your eyes.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862878 -

No, Alex123, luvdemshrooms is right.

You state your opinions, but you don't back them up.

You SAY the American public is being lied to re the defection of an Iraqi weapons development expert. No proof provided, not even a link to the infamous rense.com.

You SAY the second amendment of the US constitution refers not to individuals but to some sort of National Guard. No proof provided, not even a link to an anti-gun site.

You SAY the motivation for the actions of the UN coalition in Afghanistan was to secure an oil pipeline. No proof provided. Not even a quote from another conspiracy nut.

You SAY the US is responsible for killing 600,000 Iraqi children age 5 and under. No proof provided. No links to any human rights websites or relief agencies.

Since you've moved from Spirituality and Philosophy, I think the only time you've actually BACKED an opinion of yours is in the debate over genetically modified foods.

In Spirituality and Philosophy, it is the norm to offer outrageous opinions and let the fur fly. What authority can one reference to prove the existence of a "soul", after all? But that kind of approach here, where matters of historical FACT are often discussed, just won't fly.

pinky



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Edited by pinksharkmark (09/04/02 04:54 AM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862906 -

I will only comment on the statements that I am aware of since I don't know anything about the Iraqi weapons development expert, nor do I care if Americans own guns or not...
In reply to:
You SAY the motivation for the actions of the UN coalition in Afghanistan was to secure an oil pipeline. No proof provided. Not even a quote from another conspiracy nut.

I think more than enough links, quotes and opinions have been provided regarding this issue Pinky. Any further research should be up to you.
In reply to:
You SAY the US is responsible for killing 600,000 Iraqi children age 5 and under. No proof provided. No links to any human rights websites or relief agencies.

The United Nations estimates that more than 500,000 Iraqi children have
died as a result of sanctions and that unclean water is a major contributor to these deaths.
The U.S. intentionally destroyed Iraqi water supplies, then imposed sanctions to prevent any water from being shipped in. (Which is is direct violation of the Geneva convention which states "It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless, objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population such as foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installation and supplies, and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive."



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862909 -

No, Alex123, luvdemshrooms is right.

I must say I'm surprised to hear you say that  :smile:

You SAY the US is responsible for killing 600,000 Iraqi children age 5 and under. No proof provided. No links to any human rights websites or relief agencies.

Well, apart from the UN  officials in charge of the sanctions programme resigning in disgust and calling the US guilty of "genocide"...now can you give me some proof to suggest this didn't happen?

Incidentally, why are you so keen I offer links to other sites when you and your little pal luvdem never do?





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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Rono]
    #862917 -

Rono writes:

I think more than enough links, quotes and opinions have been provided regarding this issue Pinky. Any further research should be up to you.

You've provided a few, yes. Alex123 hasn't.

I've debunked the whole "Bush deliberately let the attacks occur so his cronies could build a pipeline across Afghanistan" thing in other posts.

Glad to see you back. Have you had time to correct any misinterpretations of your position I may have in the thread "It's all about oil?"

I presume you obtained the quote about the water from the UN website? Link, please?

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862937 -

I presume you obtained the quote about the water from the UN website? Link, please?

Are you seriously suggesting you would read it if it was provided?

I've debunked the whole "Bush deliberately let the attacks occur so his cronies could build a pipeline across Afghanistan" thing in other posts.

Please provide links and proof. You have provided none as yet.

Thanks.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862940 -

Well, apart from the UN officials in charge of the sanctions programme resigning in disgust and calling the US guilty of "genocide"...now can you give me some proof to suggest this didn't happen?


If YOU say it happened, it is up to YOU to provide some supporting evidence. If I tell you that big-eyed beans from Venus are manipulating your actions telepathically, it is not your responsibility to prove they aren't.

You are aware, of course, that those figures are widely disputed. Have half a million Iraqi children died before the age of 5 since the UN sponsored sanctions wre imposed? Possibly. What was the mortality rate of Iraqi children under 5 before the sanctions were imposed?

Even if the mortality rate for that age group IS higher post-sanction vs. pre-sanction, what is relevant is:

WHO bears responsibility for the sanctions in the first place?

Clearly it is the responsibility of Hussein, for not abiding by the terms of the surrender. I addressed this point in an answer to another post of yours.

Incidentally, why are you so keen I offer links to other sites when you and your little pal luvdem never do?

I often provide links and/or quotes from publications for which I provide the source.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862946 -

Are you seriously suggesting you would read it if it was provided?

Yep. I always read those links, even the ones at rense.com. How else can I debunk them?

Please provide links and proof. You have provided none as yet.

As I said, if someone comes up with a preposterous theory, it is up to HIM to support it, not up to everyone else to disprove it. See my "big-eyed beans from Venus" comment.

However, if you care to comment on my posts in Rono's threads "It's all about oil" and "Passenger List from 9/11..." and point out the errors in my rebuttals, I would welcome it.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (09/04/02 05:21 AM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862949 -

If YOU say it happened, it is up to YOU to provide some supporting evidence.

Are you serious? The UN resignations are common knowledge. Even someone with a cursory knowledge of the situation in Iraq would be well aware of them.

At which knowledge level do you wish me to stop at? Do i have to provide you a link everytime i say "Saddam" because you have no idea who he is either? Sorry man, I don't have the time. When I am discussing facts available at any news source I am not providing links to this basic information. It's up to you to educate yourself.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862956 -

Are you serious? The UN resignations are common knowledge. Even someone with a cursory knowledge of the situation in Iraq would be well aware of them.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment to mean the whole "US killing Iraqi babies" claim rather than referrring strictly to the resignations of UN officials.

Yes I am aware that the UN resignations occurred. I am not aware that the US has killed 600,000 Iraqi children.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862963 -

As I said, if someone comes up with a preposterous theory, it is up to HIM to support it, not up to everyone else to disprove it

As I said, to converse I have to assume you have at least a slight knowledge of the subject. If you have never even heard of the UN resignations and indeed need "links to prove it to you" there's really no point in continuing.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862971 -

Good to see you too Pinky, it's always a pleasure...now where were we?.
In reply to:
I've debunked the whole "Bush deliberately let the attacks occur so his cronies could build a pipeline across Afghanistan" thing in other posts.

On the contrary, I don't think you de-bunked anything. I feel I provided answers to any questions you may have had...and then some.
In reply to:
Have you had time to correct any misinterpretations of your position I may have in the thread "It's all about oil?"

Actually, I think you have a pretty good understanding now of my position.
In reply to:
I presume you obtained the quote about the water from the UN website? Link, please?

Here is a pretty good link from the U.N. website....please note the "Oil for Food" theme. Basically, Iraq is fucked unless they provide Oil...like I said, it's all about Oil....anyways, it's a very long article and I confess it doesn't provide #'s of children that have died, but I am still trying to find the specific one that does. (It is a VERY large site) SECURITY COUNCIL MEETS TO CONSIDER HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN IRAQ


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862985 -

C'mon buddy...
I certainly don't think that the WTC attacks were faked, I think that's nonsense, but there certainly is oil involved in pretty much every move the US makes in the middle east.

Also, I certainly wouldn't say you debunked the theory. You provided some good rebuttles to his points, but neither of you have proven anything. That's neither of you.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phluck]
    #863013 -

Phluck writes:

C'mon buddy...
I certainly don't think that the WTC attacks were faked, I think that's nonsense, but there certainly is oil involved in pretty much every move the US makes in the middle east.

Umm... where did I mention oil in that post?

I do agree that parts of US foreign policy address the issue of maintaining a reliable source of oil. But I don't agree that "almost every move the US makes in the middle east" is related to oil. Their support of Israel is not related to oil. Their insistence that Hussein abide by the terms of the surrender agreement he signed has nothing to do with oil either. What other "moves" in the middle east are they currently involved in?

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #863018 -

I don't know what you learned about history but you should know that even historical "FACTS" can be manipulated, it is a FACT that the several schools of history have different views about the same fact and it is also a FACT that several historical "FACTS" were corrected due insuficient or wrong data.
If you take a look at todays "means" to show facts, you'll end up with the media, be it the TV, the internet, newspapers, etc. It is a FACT that the population is influenced by the media and it is a FACT that the media is influenced by the state (aka who's in power) directly (imposed) or indirectly (using lobbies), it's even a FACT that CNN europe has a less "neo nazi US patriotic shit" content that CNN on the US, that's maybe a sign why the majority of europeans are against Bush and the american government, are europeans all crazy anway ?
What do you conclude from this FACTS ? I conclude we are all under control, directly or indirectly and i believe the US do it more often than any other european country does. To me, people supporting this so called "anti terrorist agenda" do need facts (or the non existence of facts) to prove such an outrageous action, it looks like they have no will, their facts speak for themselfs instead of using the neurons nature created inside their heads to read between the lines, to be suspicious and to question if those facts are really true.
Going back to the historical issue, you will have to agree with me that historical facts are poorly determinated as a whole when the event is close in time, that's why history is understood in cycles (Trend - 100 years, Simiand - 50 years) or time lapses, the further the event is in time and depending on the amount of facts given, the more clear and accurate history becomes, if you had to write the history of year 2000 it would take you 100 pages, those same pages will be enough to write the history of a whole decade on the XIX century because the number of facts were revised and only the important and valid ones were used as having any historical meanning. I believe that 100 years from now, Bush will be considered as the most idiotic and pathetic president of the US, he was in charge when the 9-11 happened, he made war with allmost every islamic country, managed to control the oil market, helped the armament industry and said "grecians" live in greece.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (09/04/02 06:09 AM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Rono]
    #863041 -

Rono writes:

Actually, I think you have a pretty good understanding now of my position.

Okay. So there is nothing with my summarization of your position that you find fault with? Here is my summary again... last chance to alter it to fit more closely your position....

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

1) Top officials of the American government, including the president, had certain knowledge (how long before? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Give me a rough idea, please) that Al qaeda were going to hijack several commercial jetliners and fly them into targets (did they know WHICH targets?) on American soil. The officials involved kept this knowledge to themselves.

2) Rather than arrest the hijackers before they boarded the airliners, these top officials decided to let the attacks take place. Their motivation for this decision was that they believed a SUCCESSFUL terrorist attack would legitimize an American overthrow of the Taliban (who were known to harbor the terrorists responsible) while a THWARTED terrorist attack would not.

3) There was either unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials, or at the very least an agreement by those who disagreed that they would keep silent about their knowledge.

4) The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan (from where to where?) and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

It would be helpful if you would answer the three questions in boldface, if you think you have answers for them. Whether you answer the questions or not, as long as you agree that this summary is an accurate one, I will address your position in your thread "It's all about oil" rather than in this thread, okay?

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #863053 -

In reply to:
Yes I am aware that the UN resignations occurred.


Ever wonder why ? You can give an opinnion by thinking for yourself, no need for facts.

In reply to:
I am not aware that the US has killed 600,000 Iraqi children.



Does it make any difference to you if it really did happened but there is no fact ? I think that even if it were 600 people it would make a difference, any life makes a difference and that's what is really important, not the numbers but the fact that inocent people died because of the US.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #863066 -

In reply to:
(how long before? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Give me a rough idea, please)

Unfortunately there is much speculation about exactly how much foreknowledge of the attacks there was...anywhere from a few days to a few months. I realize that this doesn't help you much, but I can't provide exact answers, it's not like I'm in on the deal. I can only point out that there is a suspicious amount of evidence available that leads me to believe that there is something going on besides what we're being told.

In reply to:
3) There was either unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials, or at the very least an agreement by those who disagreed that they would keep silent about their knowledge.

Not ALL officials...just ones within the circle of power with the oil companies.
In reply to:
The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan (from where to where?) and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

These pipelines would begin in the former Soviet Republic of Turkemenistan, through Afghanistan to Pakistan.

So now that I think we have a basic understanding, let's bring it to the other thread.



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: MAIA]
    #866063 -

MAIA writes:

...even historical "FACTS" can be manipulated...

Of course they can, and they can be interpreted differently as well. My complaint with Alex123 wasn't that he was manipulating facts, or interpreting facts in a way I disagreed with -- it's that he wasn't providing facts at all.

I conclude we are all under control, directly or indirectly and i believe the US do it more often than any other european country does.

We disagree on both these points, then.

To me, people supporting this so called "anti terrorist agenda" do need facts (or the non existence of facts) to prove such an outrageous action...

You believe it is "outrageous" to attempt to punish those who engineer acts of terror and to prevent others from committing similar acts?

...you will have to agree with me that historical facts are poorly determinated as a whole when the event is close in time...

No, I don't HAVE to agree with you on that. We know next to nothing of what took place when the first explorers from Europe set foot on the New World, while we know just about everything of what took place when man set foot on another planet, as just one example.

I believe that 100 years from now, Bush will be considered as the most idiotic and pathetic president of the US...

You may be right, although he certainly has a lot of VERY stiff competition for the title.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: MAIA]
    #866069 -

MAIA writes:

....not the numbers but the fact that inocent people died because of the US.

Here is where we disagree. You believe the US is responsible for deaths from starvation and disease in Iraq once the cease-fire was signed. I don't. Here's my argument:

1) The sanctions were imposed by the United Nations, not by the US.

2) The United Nations sanctions would have been lifted if the terms of Iraq's surrender had been met.

3) The United Nations sanctions would not have been imposed at all if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866088 -

RE:
1) The sanctions were imposed by the United Nations, not by the US.

2) The United Nations sanctions would have been lifted if the terms of Iraq's surrender had been met.

3) The United Nations sanctions would not have been imposed at all if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait.



Ok, now I'm forced to play "devil's advocate".....

Much of the world sees the United Nations as nothing more than a puppet of The American Goverment.... (' wonder why?)

It's sort of like the view that many arabs have off the current AfganiSTAIN (heh) president... they see him as America's puppet.... and they see the U.N. no diferently.


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (09/05/02 07:17 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Jammer]
    #866121 -

Much of the world sees the United Nations as nothing more than a puppet of The American Goverment....

Much of the world sees America as The Great Satan, too.

The UN is hardly the puppet of the United States government. If it were, why would it pass so many resolutions the US disagrees with?

For what it's worth, I believe the UN is a worthless organization. It has been since the day it was created as the League of Nations.

Also, for what it's worth, I believe the sanctions are useless. Sanctions almost never work, because the only people who can actually change the policy of the sanctioned country are not affected by the sanctions at all.

If the idea was to make sure Iraq was no longer a menace to its neighbors, it was idiocy to stop the troops at the borders of Iraq and just hope that sanctions would make Saddam abide by the terms of the surrender.

To get back to my point, though...

It is neither the United Nations NOR the United States of America who bear responsibility for Iraq's current plight. It is Saddam Hussein.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (09/05/02 06:57 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866129 -

The UN is hardly the puppet of the United States government. If it were, why would it pass so many resolutions the US disagrees with?

It's hard not to pass resolutions the US doesn't agree with. The US always abstains or votes against anything they don't like anyway - and uses economic threats to make other countries toe the line.

It is neither the United Nations NOR the United States of America who bear responsibility for Iraq's current plight. It is Saddam Hussein.

Not according to UNICEF and the UN official in charge of the oil for food programme. They all lay the blame fairly and squarely on the US.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #866155 -

They all lay the blame fairly and squarely on the US.

Then they don't have a grasp of the principle of cause and effect, do they?

Q: Why were sanctions imposed?
A: Because Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Q: Which Iraqi gave the order to invade Kuwait?
A: Saddam Hussein.

Conclusion: Saddam Hussein bears responsibility for the imposition of the sanctions.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866653 -

Yes...it's from an Anarchist site...but that doesn't make the info any less relevant...

US War Crimes in Iraq:::By Nuremberg Standards


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866819 -

Then they don't have a grasp of the principle of cause and effect, do they?

Perhaps a sounder grasp than you appear to have.

Q: Why were sanctions imposed?
A: Because Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Excuse me? What is this jump in logic? When did the idea that you impose medieval sanctions on people for 10 years after a war has ended?

Where was this principle when the savage (american installed and funded..surprise surprise...) dictator Suharto invaded East Timor and carried out mass genocide?



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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