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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862940 -

Well, apart from the UN officials in charge of the sanctions programme resigning in disgust and calling the US guilty of "genocide"...now can you give me some proof to suggest this didn't happen?


If YOU say it happened, it is up to YOU to provide some supporting evidence. If I tell you that big-eyed beans from Venus are manipulating your actions telepathically, it is not your responsibility to prove they aren't.

You are aware, of course, that those figures are widely disputed. Have half a million Iraqi children died before the age of 5 since the UN sponsored sanctions wre imposed? Possibly. What was the mortality rate of Iraqi children under 5 before the sanctions were imposed?

Even if the mortality rate for that age group IS higher post-sanction vs. pre-sanction, what is relevant is:

WHO bears responsibility for the sanctions in the first place?

Clearly it is the responsibility of Hussein, for not abiding by the terms of the surrender. I addressed this point in an answer to another post of yours.

Incidentally, why are you so keen I offer links to other sites when you and your little pal luvdem never do?

I often provide links and/or quotes from publications for which I provide the source.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862946 -

Are you seriously suggesting you would read it if it was provided?

Yep. I always read those links, even the ones at rense.com. How else can I debunk them?

Please provide links and proof. You have provided none as yet.

As I said, if someone comes up with a preposterous theory, it is up to HIM to support it, not up to everyone else to disprove it. See my "big-eyed beans from Venus" comment.

However, if you care to comment on my posts in Rono's threads "It's all about oil" and "Passenger List from 9/11..." and point out the errors in my rebuttals, I would welcome it.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (09/04/02 05:21 AM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862949 -

If YOU say it happened, it is up to YOU to provide some supporting evidence.

Are you serious? The UN resignations are common knowledge. Even someone with a cursory knowledge of the situation in Iraq would be well aware of them.

At which knowledge level do you wish me to stop at? Do i have to provide you a link everytime i say "Saddam" because you have no idea who he is either? Sorry man, I don't have the time. When I am discussing facts available at any news source I am not providing links to this basic information. It's up to you to educate yourself.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #862956 -

Are you serious? The UN resignations are common knowledge. Even someone with a cursory knowledge of the situation in Iraq would be well aware of them.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment to mean the whole "US killing Iraqi babies" claim rather than referrring strictly to the resignations of UN officials.

Yes I am aware that the UN resignations occurred. I am not aware that the US has killed 600,000 Iraqi children.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862963 -

As I said, if someone comes up with a preposterous theory, it is up to HIM to support it, not up to everyone else to disprove it

As I said, to converse I have to assume you have at least a slight knowledge of the subject. If you have never even heard of the UN resignations and indeed need "links to prove it to you" there's really no point in continuing.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862971 -

Good to see you too Pinky, it's always a pleasure...now where were we?.
In reply to:
I've debunked the whole "Bush deliberately let the attacks occur so his cronies could build a pipeline across Afghanistan" thing in other posts.

On the contrary, I don't think you de-bunked anything. I feel I provided answers to any questions you may have had...and then some.
In reply to:
Have you had time to correct any misinterpretations of your position I may have in the thread "It's all about oil?"

Actually, I think you have a pretty good understanding now of my position.
In reply to:
I presume you obtained the quote about the water from the UN website? Link, please?

Here is a pretty good link from the U.N. website....please note the "Oil for Food" theme. Basically, Iraq is fucked unless they provide Oil...like I said, it's all about Oil....anyways, it's a very long article and I confess it doesn't provide #'s of children that have died, but I am still trying to find the specific one that does. (It is a VERY large site) SECURITY COUNCIL MEETS TO CONSIDER HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IN IRAQ


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #862985 -

C'mon buddy...
I certainly don't think that the WTC attacks were faked, I think that's nonsense, but there certainly is oil involved in pretty much every move the US makes in the middle east.

Also, I certainly wouldn't say you debunked the theory. You provided some good rebuttles to his points, but neither of you have proven anything. That's neither of you.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phluck]
    #863013 -

Phluck writes:

C'mon buddy...
I certainly don't think that the WTC attacks were faked, I think that's nonsense, but there certainly is oil involved in pretty much every move the US makes in the middle east.

Umm... where did I mention oil in that post?

I do agree that parts of US foreign policy address the issue of maintaining a reliable source of oil. But I don't agree that "almost every move the US makes in the middle east" is related to oil. Their support of Israel is not related to oil. Their insistence that Hussein abide by the terms of the surrender agreement he signed has nothing to do with oil either. What other "moves" in the middle east are they currently involved in?

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #863018 -

I don't know what you learned about history but you should know that even historical "FACTS" can be manipulated, it is a FACT that the several schools of history have different views about the same fact and it is also a FACT that several historical "FACTS" were corrected due insuficient or wrong data.
If you take a look at todays "means" to show facts, you'll end up with the media, be it the TV, the internet, newspapers, etc. It is a FACT that the population is influenced by the media and it is a FACT that the media is influenced by the state (aka who's in power) directly (imposed) or indirectly (using lobbies), it's even a FACT that CNN europe has a less "neo nazi US patriotic shit" content that CNN on the US, that's maybe a sign why the majority of europeans are against Bush and the american government, are europeans all crazy anway ?
What do you conclude from this FACTS ? I conclude we are all under control, directly or indirectly and i believe the US do it more often than any other european country does. To me, people supporting this so called "anti terrorist agenda" do need facts (or the non existence of facts) to prove such an outrageous action, it looks like they have no will, their facts speak for themselfs instead of using the neurons nature created inside their heads to read between the lines, to be suspicious and to question if those facts are really true.
Going back to the historical issue, you will have to agree with me that historical facts are poorly determinated as a whole when the event is close in time, that's why history is understood in cycles (Trend - 100 years, Simiand - 50 years) or time lapses, the further the event is in time and depending on the amount of facts given, the more clear and accurate history becomes, if you had to write the history of year 2000 it would take you 100 pages, those same pages will be enough to write the history of a whole decade on the XIX century because the number of facts were revised and only the important and valid ones were used as having any historical meanning. I believe that 100 years from now, Bush will be considered as the most idiotic and pathetic president of the US, he was in charge when the 9-11 happened, he made war with allmost every islamic country, managed to control the oil market, helped the armament industry and said "grecians" live in greece.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (09/04/02 06:09 AM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Rono]
    #863041 -

Rono writes:

Actually, I think you have a pretty good understanding now of my position.

Okay. So there is nothing with my summarization of your position that you find fault with? Here is my summary again... last chance to alter it to fit more closely your position....

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

1) Top officials of the American government, including the president, had certain knowledge (how long before? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Give me a rough idea, please) that Al qaeda were going to hijack several commercial jetliners and fly them into targets (did they know WHICH targets?) on American soil. The officials involved kept this knowledge to themselves.

2) Rather than arrest the hijackers before they boarded the airliners, these top officials decided to let the attacks take place. Their motivation for this decision was that they believed a SUCCESSFUL terrorist attack would legitimize an American overthrow of the Taliban (who were known to harbor the terrorists responsible) while a THWARTED terrorist attack would not.

3) There was either unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials, or at the very least an agreement by those who disagreed that they would keep silent about their knowledge.

4) The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan (from where to where?) and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

It would be helpful if you would answer the three questions in boldface, if you think you have answers for them. Whether you answer the questions or not, as long as you agree that this summary is an accurate one, I will address your position in your thread "It's all about oil" rather than in this thread, okay?

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #863053 -

In reply to:
Yes I am aware that the UN resignations occurred.


Ever wonder why ? You can give an opinnion by thinking for yourself, no need for facts.

In reply to:
I am not aware that the US has killed 600,000 Iraqi children.



Does it make any difference to you if it really did happened but there is no fact ? I think that even if it were 600 people it would make a difference, any life makes a difference and that's what is really important, not the numbers but the fact that inocent people died because of the US.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #863066 -

In reply to:
(how long before? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Give me a rough idea, please)

Unfortunately there is much speculation about exactly how much foreknowledge of the attacks there was...anywhere from a few days to a few months. I realize that this doesn't help you much, but I can't provide exact answers, it's not like I'm in on the deal. I can only point out that there is a suspicious amount of evidence available that leads me to believe that there is something going on besides what we're being told.

In reply to:
3) There was either unanimous agreement on this decision among all the officials, or at the very least an agreement by those who disagreed that they would keep silent about their knowledge.

Not ALL officials...just ones within the circle of power with the oil companies.
In reply to:
The reason Afghanistan needed to be invaded was because the Taliban refused to allow oil companies to build a pipeline across Afghanistan (from where to where?) and the officials involved believed a new Afghani government would allow the oil companies to do so.

These pipelines would begin in the former Soviet Republic of Turkemenistan, through Afghanistan to Pakistan.

So now that I think we have a basic understanding, let's bring it to the other thread.



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: MAIA]
    #866063 -

MAIA writes:

...even historical "FACTS" can be manipulated...

Of course they can, and they can be interpreted differently as well. My complaint with Alex123 wasn't that he was manipulating facts, or interpreting facts in a way I disagreed with -- it's that he wasn't providing facts at all.

I conclude we are all under control, directly or indirectly and i believe the US do it more often than any other european country does.

We disagree on both these points, then.

To me, people supporting this so called "anti terrorist agenda" do need facts (or the non existence of facts) to prove such an outrageous action...

You believe it is "outrageous" to attempt to punish those who engineer acts of terror and to prevent others from committing similar acts?

...you will have to agree with me that historical facts are poorly determinated as a whole when the event is close in time...

No, I don't HAVE to agree with you on that. We know next to nothing of what took place when the first explorers from Europe set foot on the New World, while we know just about everything of what took place when man set foot on another planet, as just one example.

I believe that 100 years from now, Bush will be considered as the most idiotic and pathetic president of the US...

You may be right, although he certainly has a lot of VERY stiff competition for the title.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: MAIA]
    #866069 -

MAIA writes:

....not the numbers but the fact that inocent people died because of the US.

Here is where we disagree. You believe the US is responsible for deaths from starvation and disease in Iraq once the cease-fire was signed. I don't. Here's my argument:

1) The sanctions were imposed by the United Nations, not by the US.

2) The United Nations sanctions would have been lifted if the terms of Iraq's surrender had been met.

3) The United Nations sanctions would not have been imposed at all if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866088 -

RE:
1) The sanctions were imposed by the United Nations, not by the US.

2) The United Nations sanctions would have been lifted if the terms of Iraq's surrender had been met.

3) The United Nations sanctions would not have been imposed at all if Iraq had not invaded Kuwait.



Ok, now I'm forced to play "devil's advocate".....

Much of the world sees the United Nations as nothing more than a puppet of The American Goverment.... (' wonder why?)

It's sort of like the view that many arabs have off the current AfganiSTAIN (heh) president... they see him as America's puppet.... and they see the U.N. no diferently.


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>>Jammer>>

Edited by Jammer (09/05/02 07:17 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Jammer]
    #866121 -

Much of the world sees the United Nations as nothing more than a puppet of The American Goverment....

Much of the world sees America as The Great Satan, too.

The UN is hardly the puppet of the United States government. If it were, why would it pass so many resolutions the US disagrees with?

For what it's worth, I believe the UN is a worthless organization. It has been since the day it was created as the League of Nations.

Also, for what it's worth, I believe the sanctions are useless. Sanctions almost never work, because the only people who can actually change the policy of the sanctioned country are not affected by the sanctions at all.

If the idea was to make sure Iraq was no longer a menace to its neighbors, it was idiocy to stop the troops at the borders of Iraq and just hope that sanctions would make Saddam abide by the terms of the surrender.

To get back to my point, though...

It is neither the United Nations NOR the United States of America who bear responsibility for Iraq's current plight. It is Saddam Hussein.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (09/05/02 06:57 PM)

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866129 -

The UN is hardly the puppet of the United States government. If it were, why would it pass so many resolutions the US disagrees with?

It's hard not to pass resolutions the US doesn't agree with. The US always abstains or votes against anything they don't like anyway - and uses economic threats to make other countries toe the line.

It is neither the United Nations NOR the United States of America who bear responsibility for Iraq's current plight. It is Saddam Hussein.

Not according to UNICEF and the UN official in charge of the oil for food programme. They all lay the blame fairly and squarely on the US.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Xlea321]
    #866155 -

They all lay the blame fairly and squarely on the US.

Then they don't have a grasp of the principle of cause and effect, do they?

Q: Why were sanctions imposed?
A: Because Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Q: Which Iraqi gave the order to invade Kuwait?
A: Saddam Hussein.

Conclusion: Saddam Hussein bears responsibility for the imposition of the sanctions.

pinky


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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866653 -

Yes...it's from an Anarchist site...but that doesn't make the info any less relevant...

US War Crimes in Iraq:::By Nuremberg Standards


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: WAR planned for Nov. [Re: Phred]
    #866819 -

Then they don't have a grasp of the principle of cause and effect, do they?

Perhaps a sounder grasp than you appear to have.

Q: Why were sanctions imposed?
A: Because Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Excuse me? What is this jump in logic? When did the idea that you impose medieval sanctions on people for 10 years after a war has ended?

Where was this principle when the savage (american installed and funded..surprise surprise...) dictator Suharto invaded East Timor and carried out mass genocide?



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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