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Anno
Experimenter




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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Rebirtha]
#8561324 - 06/25/08 05:31 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080616/153301/
Quote:
Genepax uses a metal or a metal compound that can cause an oxidation reaction with water at room temperature, the company said. Metals that react with water include lithium, sodium, magnesium, potassium and calcium. The main feature of the Water Energy System is that it can be operated for a longer period of time by controlling the reaction of the metal or the metal compound, the company said.
According to Genepax, the metal or the metal compound is supported by a porous body such as zeolite inside the fuel electrode of the membrane electrode assembly (MEA). The products of the hydrogen generation reaction dissolves in water, and the water containing them will be discharged with water inside the system. Upon the completion of the reaction, the generation of hydrogen and power stops.
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zouden
Neuroscientist



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Anno]
#8561352 - 06/25/08 05:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Our suspicions are confirmed... thanks Anno!
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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timmeh_87
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: zouden]
#8563187 - 06/25/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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If these people invented a catalyst that could just magically split water, this would be a much greater accomplishment than a stupid looking car.
Then everything in the world could be powered by water! Global warming would be solved with a single invention. Just make sure it dosent get loose into the ocean...
Yeah right, sounds like something out of a Kurt Vonnegut book.
Besides, can catalysts even work on a backwards (very energetically unfavorable) reaction? Usually they just speed up a reaction that already wants to happen.
>>>> lmao ok so I looked up ^.I should read the whole thread BEFORE i post
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Duaber
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: timmeh_87]
#8563607 - 06/25/08 05:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is about as good as the car that I seen that runs on compressed air. Why can't more people think outside the box like this?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Duaber]
#8563626 - 06/25/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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There are thousands of people all over the world who's sole job is thinking outside the box. Sometimes a thing is outside the box for a reason, like water powered cars.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Anno]
#8564266 - 06/25/08 08:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anno said: http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080616/153301/
Quote:
Genepax uses a metal or a metal compound that can cause an oxidation reaction with water at room temperature, the company said. Metals that react with water include lithium, sodium, magnesium, potassium and calcium. The main feature of the Water Energy System is that it can be operated for a longer period of time by controlling the reaction of the metal or the metal compound, the company said.
According to Genepax, the metal or the metal compound is supported by a porous body such as zeolite inside the fuel electrode of the membrane electrode assembly (MEA). The products of the hydrogen generation reaction dissolves in water, and the water containing them will be discharged with water inside the system. Upon the completion of the reaction, the generation of hydrogen and power stops.
ahh, so this is just another battery.
Another electric powered car with some new revolutionary battery
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8564938 - 06/25/08 11:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not a bad idea though. Those metals are cheap and if they have enough longevity, are easy to replace and cheap to operate, I'm all for this.
I'm curious though, are you being serious about calling this a battery? I really can't tell by what you said and with your previous objection about their use of technical terms, I'm all the more confused.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8565264 - 06/26/08 01:48 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well dictionaries often suck at providing useful definitions for scientific terms, so I'll defer, but it appears to be a battery by the definition given in american heritage dictionary:
Quote:
Electricity.
1. Two or more connected cells that produce a direct current by converting chemical energy to electrical energy. 2. A single cell, such as a dry cell, that produces an electric current
Definition 2 clearly covers this. You have the reduced species as the metal, it passes its electrons to the oxidized species, water, the water is reduced to hydrogen as well as producing hydroxide ion which balances the charge of the metal (using some intermediary like the salt bridge you may have used in high school/college chemistry/physics). At least that's what happens when sodium reacts with water. You can harness the flow of electrons and make it do work, but that apparently isn't a requirement of the american heritage definition.
However, in this case, it does appear the actual electricity is used, not the hydrogen, so I don't know if they just release the hydrogen or what.
I just doubt this will be efficient. How do they make the metal? The energy has to come from somewhere. This seems like the same ol switchero that is the electric car: look, no emisions, blah blah blah (just don't worry about where the electricity comes from. It comes from the outlet- it's magic.)
And what metals are you refering to when you say "those metals are cheap"?
They're not. Try to buy a hunk of them, they are expensive.
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zouden
Neuroscientist



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8565280 - 06/26/08 01:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Indeed, this is like an electric car, but much worse.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
Edited by zouden (06/26/08 02:00 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: zouden]
#8565462 - 06/26/08 04:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm missing something...
> The products of the hydrogen generation reaction dissolves in water, and the water containing them will be discharged with water inside the system.
... am I reading this correctly. After the reaction is done, we are left with "dirty water" that contains the dissolved metal products. By "discharged," I assume they mean that this metal waste is dumped into the environment?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zouden
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Seuss]
#8565470 - 06/26/08 04:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Man. Worst car ever.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8566063 - 06/26/08 10:11 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well, apparently I've been misreading this stupid thing the entire time. Because the claim that it "runs on water HHO", I assumed they were actually running a motor on the gas. I just reread it and saw that they're actually using this for the production of electricity.
On the metals expense, most of those are relatively abundant. Expensive is a relative term anyway. As long as it's cheaper than gas to operate, it's cheap.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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johnm214



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Loc: Americas
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: DieCommie]
#8566164 - 06/26/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes, the actual elements are abundant. You may here of sodium, calcium, magnesium all over. But not elemental forms.
You find compounds. Sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, magnesium something (carbonate I guess, I dunno).
The very reason these things are so stable in their form as compounds is cuz the ions come from very reactive species. The more reactive the element is, the less reactive the ion is, generally. Sodium very reactive; sodium ion not very reactive.
Transition metals have intermediate reactivity and so do their ions, neither one is terribly inert and neither one is terribly reactive.
So to get the sodium carbonate back into sodium you have to convert it, requiring a ton of energy. Likely this is ignored in the company's literature or whatnot. Yes there is an abundant supply of the stuff, but tis expensive to produce in a usable form. Exactly like hydrogen. It is everywhere, but to get a usable form, elemental, you have to expend energy that you will not recoup in the conversion back to the original form. The problems with this metal are exactly the same as with hydrogen cars, completely parrelel, except that hydrogen is lighter and so is whater.
But your confusion is what folks talked about earlier in the thread: the car doesn't run on water. It just uses it in the transmision of power. The water is akin to the waterwheel of the old fasioned mill. It is required, but it isn't the source of the power- the source of the power is gravity and the water' potential energy. With this car the water is required and transmits power, like the wheel, but doesn't produce it. The source of the car's power is the reduced metal.
That's why people were saying it was disingenuous to call the car able to "run on water". It does no such thing, and the folks should be smacked for false advertising.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8566298 - 06/26/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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When you were talking about it being disingenuous earlier in the thread, I was still understanding it to mean that a chemical reaction which split the water, to use the HHO as fuel for an internal combustion engine, was what was really powering the car. I somehow glossed over the part that it was being used to produce electricity instead.
That's why I didn't understand why it was making you so upset about their claim. I was thinking, "Sure, it using another chemical to facilitate the electrolysis, but it still runs on HHO. Just an extra step in there that will require some periodic maintenance. Not exactly forthright but not too much of a stretch as to invalidate their invention if it indeed works." I still understood it wasn't ultimately running on water, and that it was a secondary process, but thought that if the first process - the reaction being used to split it - was relatively low maintenance and more of a "behind the scenes" thing, that this wasn't too much of a sin.
Now, I completely understand your frustration with their claims. It's an outright lie.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8566696 - 06/26/08 01:08 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Update, go to their website and click the "mechanism" subheading under the "energy system" heading. There all your questions will be answered about this exciting technology. For the lazy, here's the link to their mechanism heading found on their front page (I'm being sarcastic btw, which you'll see):
http://genepax.co.jp/en/construction.html
btw, same info for the future innovation subheading, lol
Quote:
That's why I didn't understand why it was making you so upset about their claim. I was thinking, "Sure, it using another chemical to facilitate the electrolysis, but it still runs on HHO. Just an extra step in there that will require some periodic maintenance. Not exactly forthright but not too much of a stretch as to invalidate their invention if it indeed works."
well, to be fair, I thought like you, given the articles title and the recent claims of H fuels, that it combusted H. The article didn't really say much about what actually happens.
I think it was zouden or anno that did the extra work and figured out it was more of a battery powered car.
Just turned out their claims were even more misleading 
I'd say though that the criticism still stands even if it were the prior. At most you could say hydrogen was a fuel in a step of the reaction, but as to the car, the metal would still be the fuel.
The extra step like you say is just a a means to transfer energy, so its not really a fuel overall, since its generation is more costly than its production. Its like a gear. Theoretically it is energetically neutral, but friction will reduce it to a net loss, neccesary though it may well be.
Oh well, I guess we get confused when the companys make silly claims, from their CEO no less, and say nothing allowing anyone to decide if there car is anything decent, yet still want investors, lol.
Quote:
DieCommie said: There are thousands of people all over the world who's sole job is thinking outside the box. Sometimes a thing is outside the box for a reason, like water powered cars.
lol, indeed
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orangemiss
3 hunna



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: QuantumReality]
#8568352 - 06/26/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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finally the we dont have to pay the Al Sauds 3.75 a gallon anymore yay! thats a good thing cause then they cant give money to Iran to make and trade weapons to give to tourist organizations like Al Quida and Hamas!
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Anno
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: orangemiss]
#8569633 - 06/27/08 01:26 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
orangemiss said: finally the we dont have to pay the Al Sauds 3.75 a gallon anymore yay!
Ahm...did you read this thread at all? Please do.
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Anno
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8569645 - 06/27/08 01:35 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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The mystery on how a 300W fuel cell can power a (small) car is finally solved.
From http://genepax.co.jp/en/faq/
Quote:
Q: What is the WES-equipped electric vehicle? A: We equipped a commercially available electric vehicle with a WES to generate power to recharge the battery.
So basically, the car is running off a battery, since to run even a small car you need far more than the 300W, and their unit is only recharging the battery, barely so though, since if the car needs 10,000W to drive, and they recharge the battery with 300W, then....well, you do the math.
It gets even better:
Quote:
Q: How many hours can the car be driven on one liter? A: We have no data concerning continuous driving. We would need the cooperation of a car manufacturer to obtain official data.
Yes, I can imagine it to be VERY difficult to pour 1 liter of water into the tank and then drive until the car stops.....
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Anno]
#8569819 - 06/27/08 03:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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> The mystery on how a 300W
300W is just under 1/2 horsepower, for those stuck in the Emperial world...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zouden
Neuroscientist



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Seuss]
#8569822 - 06/27/08 03:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have to give credit for the Genepax folk for providing the technical details behind their invention. Now we can all see that the car is a horrible idea, rather than just speculating.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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