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Rebirtha
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Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO!
#8521370 - 06/13/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Can't wait to see where this leads
http://in.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idINSP7366720080613
Quote:
OKYO (Reuters Life!) - Tired of petrol prices rising daily at the pump? A Japanese company has invented an electric-powered, and environmentally friendly, car that it says runs solely on water.
Genepax unveiled the car in the western city of Osaka on Thursday, saying that a liter (2.1 pints) of any kind of water -- rain, river or sea -- was all you needed to get the engine going for about an hour at a speed of 80 km (50 miles).
"The car will continue to run as long as you have a bottle of water to top up from time to time," Genepax CEO Kiyoshi Hirasawa told local broadcaster TV Tokyo.
"It does not require you to build up an infrastructure to recharge your batteries, which is usually the case for most electric cars," he added.
Once the water is poured into the tank at the back of the car, the a generator breaks it down and uses it to create electrical power, TV Tokyo said.
Whether the car makes it into showrooms remains to be seen. Genepax said it had just applied for a patent and is hoping to collaborate with Japanese auto manufacturers in the future.
Most big automakers, meanwhile, are working on fuel-cell cars that run on hydrogen and emit -- not consume -- water.
(Writing by Chika Osaka, editing by Miral Fahmy and Chang-Ran Kim)
Edited by Rebirtha (06/14/08 12:58 AM)
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iateshaggy
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Rebirtha]
#8521439 - 06/13/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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yall don't need to encourage buddhahoodlum.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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entheomandotcom
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: iateshaggy]
#8521747 - 06/13/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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BABA BA........
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zouden
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: entheomandotcom]
#8522184 - 06/14/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The key to that system, it seems, is its membrane electrode assembly (or MEA), which contains a material that's capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.
Then it's not water powered, it's powered by this material.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Anno
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Rebirtha]
#8522202 - 06/14/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Evan said: Can't wait to see where this leads
Let me take a well educated guess: nowhere?
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iateshaggy
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: Anno]
#8526461 - 06/15/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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so, if this membrane were to break down water into HHO, i guess that would be something similar to a dielectric reaction like what occurs when water transfers from steel pipe to copper. here is where the fun begins. it takes energy to pump that water, and i bet it even takes more energy to push water through a membrane that rips it apart. hopefully i'm wrong, but i bet anno is right on this one. besides, who wants to funk up their engine w/ salty swamp water?
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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johnm214



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: zouden]
#8527393 - 06/15/08 04:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
The key to that system, it seems, is its membrane electrode assembly (or MEA), which contains a material that's capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.
Then it's not water powered, it's powered by this material.
Yeah, I was trying to figure out where the actual energy was coming from.
Don't these large news companies have someone who knows their ass from a hole in the ground? You can't run shit on water, it's not a fuel- it's very very oxidized.
I still don't enderstand the "capable of breaking down water" bit.... What the fuck are they talking about? Is this just a battery or something?
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johnm214



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8527397 - 06/15/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Apparently Jason, from the horror movies, likes the car VVV
Anyways, I found an article that said teh company won't say how they do this, other than the membrane electrode assembly- whatever the fuck that means.

EDIT:
iateshaggy:
In the redox rxn your talking about, I presume, the fuel would be considered to be the reduced species, not water. Calling the car "running on water" is as stupid as saying something "runs on oxygen".
Througout history, the fuel, what something runs on, has been arbitrarily asigned to the reduced species. These assholes seem to be jumping on the fuel cell bandwagon by claiming that they run on water. Its an abuse of the language.
NOTHING runs on water, except something that uses such an energetically unfavorable oxidized species to oxidize water that no gain would be accomplished.
These assholes are twisting language to make themselves sound good- which I guarentee whatever their stupid technology and fuel turns out to be.
Edited by johnm214 (06/15/08 05:17 PM)
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zouden
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8527690 - 06/15/08 06:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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When this car was discussed on slashdot, someone found a link which suggests that the MEA technology uses a gallium-aluminium alloy to split the water. Which means, of course, that the car is powered by the gallium-aluminium alloy - and I bet that shit ain't cheap.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8527714 - 06/15/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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It runs on HHO gas which is derived from water - HHO, as in Hydrogen, Hydrogen, Oxygen or H20. It's quite flammable and capable of running an engine just fine. The best part is the exhaust is practically nothing more than water vapor.
The problem with these claims about using it as a fuel source is that it takes more energy to split the water into HHO than you can recover from it's subsequent use as fuel. This is the same problem that you will always encounter when trying to convert one form of energy into another - there have to be losses, nothing is 100% efficient.
That said, if they have come up with some novel or cost effective catalyst then it's conceivable that the car could indeed run from the fuel it makes from water. The hitch will be replacing the catalyst once it's consumed.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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DieCommie


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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8527721 - 06/15/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Catalysts dont get consumed, thats the definition of a catalyst.
If some agent is being consumed in the split of H and O, then it is the fuel, not the water.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: zouden]
#8527755 - 06/15/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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You replied after I'd already started writing my response, but that could possibly explain it. I don't what kind of reaction would be taking place, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't consume the electrode in the process if it really even works. If it does that with enough excess energy to overcome the losses of conversion in a cost effective method, I don't know a reason why this wouldn't work.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: DieCommie]
#8527759 - 06/15/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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My chemistry experience is nearly 20 years old, I'm sure I'm confusing terms. Thanks for clarifying.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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johnm214



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8527778 - 06/15/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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The more fundamental issue is that catalysts don't change the equilibrium position of a reaction (except in some biological systems) and they don't change the energy difference between product and reactant.
The problem with creating water to hydrogen to water isn't the energy to convert it, its the fact that you'll never get more out of hydrogen to water than you used to make hydrogen from water.
Catalysis isn't the issue.
Additionally, like diecommie said, if they run this thing on some metal, the metal is the fuel.
It pisses me off to no end to hear people talk about "running" things on water. These assholes would know what a fuel is if they took the two seconds to look it up. (Edit: I wasn't talking to you man, just about the company Not trying to be a prick)
How a company can confuse a simple term like that and claim to have a technological breakthrough is completely beyond me, and it smack of a company that thinks you're (I'm) too stupid to know their full of shit and manipulating words to mean whatever the hell they want them to mean.
Quote:
"The car will continue to run as long as you have a bottle of water to top up from time to time," Genepax CEO Kiyoshi Hirasawa told local broadcaster TV Tokyo.
Bullshit. There is a fuel. And if the previously-designated metal is the fuel, how the hell can you "run it on water" without refueling?
Edited by johnm214 (06/15/08 08:18 PM)
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iateshaggy
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8527786 - 06/15/08 07:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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there is a slim chance in hell they found a way to use di-electric metals to split the water efficiently, but i'd imagine if it did a great job of converting most of the water to gas as it passes through their membrane, the energy it takes to pass the water through such a membrane may be more than the energy the HHO gas can produce. lets hope i'm wrong.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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johnm214



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: iateshaggy]
#8527792 - 06/15/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
iateshaggy said: there is a slim chance in hell they found a way to use di-electric metals to split the water efficiently, but i'd imagine if it did a great job of converting most of the water to gas as it passes through their membrane, the energy it takes to pass the water through such a membrane may be more than the energy the HHO gas can produce. lets hope i'm wrong.
Doesn't matter.
Catalysts cannot change the fundamental thermodynamics of the reaction from reactant to product. They only affect the "black box" of the transition states. Doesn't matter how efficient that black box is, you're still left with the product, and catalysis won't change the energy of that product- ever. It can't even change the proportions of the product/reactant at equilibrium, due to the prior simple fact as this is based on thermodynamics, so all it does is speed up the reaction, which is utterly useless if you can't use the product cuz its too low energy, which is the case here (in the case of electrolysis based on electricity).
Even with this metal, water is merely a means to transfer the energy to the engine in a form it can use, totally a gear in the chain, and not the source of any energy. Even if your conversion is 100% efficient, it won't change the fact that the water is useless as a fuel.
I'd like to see the cost of this metal alloy and the carbon footprint of the process to make it. I had though metals are usually produced in very carbon and energy consuming reactions- no?
I will never understand the myopic viewpoint of some of the popsci journals that only look at the product but neglect the process to get there. If you use more energy and produce more pollutants creating the fuel (like corn based ethanol, or so I've read, and assuradly in this case) than the alternative (gas) what's the point?
Oh I forgot, you get to drive around in your dinky car and act like you're saving the world
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8527873 - 06/15/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was definitely wrong in my choice of terms. I was remembering catalyst as something that made a reaction easier and was consumed in the process. I just reeducated myself on the issue and think I've clarified it, but now have other questions.
First, while I can understand your frustration with their use of terminology and it's technical correctness, you can see that it makes for an easier story to sell to the average person by telling them the car will run on water. If it consumes some metal in the reaction and requires replacement, it's much easier to explain at a later time that it will also require periodic replacement of the electrode assembly. Assuming it's legit, from a business perspective I can't really fault the guys for that.
In my reading about catalysts just now though, I discovered something I hadn't thought about before in this context. If it is truly some catalyst reaction, it couldn't be producing HHO. If all the constituents of water were being produced, then no chemical reaction was taking place. Correct? If it's using some catalyst, then it's more likely that only H is being produced. If that's so, is it possible that oxygen could be somehow extracted from the atmosphere (through some membrane perhaps??) or even straight air to make a combustible fuel?
I mean I know that hydrogen will combust (rather explosively) in air just fine. But could a catalyst exist that would allow you to extract the hydrogen and could hydrogen make a viable fuel to power an engine with the air we breathe?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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johnm214



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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8527967 - 06/15/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I understand its easier to sell, but its wrong. That's the point. The car runs on metal, apparently. There's just some side reaction that has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the fuel, and the car gains nothing from the water energetically.
It's like saying that a mill with a waterwheel runs on the waterwheel, and so we should all buy waterwheels to power our car- no, it runs on the water's potential energy. While the waterwheel is neccesary to power the mill, it is just transfering energy, doesn't produce it.
Likewise {edit: in the car} the water is just a source of hydrogen, which transfers the energy in the metal to the engine. While the hydrogen is neccesary, it doesn't produce any energy, only transmits it. (I realize the water can be replaced w/ other compounds, just saying that in the mechanism as proposed the water isn't a source of energy and isn't something you can run a car on)
The other problem is that the CEO is a fucking liar and claims you can run the car indefinatly on water, without detailing what is assuredly a HUGE cost in the metal they've got to use.
Quote:
In my reading about catalysts just now though, I discovered something I hadn't thought about before in this context. If it is truly some catalyst reaction, it couldn't be producing HHO. If all the constituents of water were being produced, then no chemical reaction was taking place. Correct? If it's using some catalyst, then it's more likely that only H is being produced. If that's so, is it possible that oxygen could be somehow extracted from the atmosphere (through some membrane perhaps??) or even straight air to make a combustible fuel?
I mean I know that hydrogen will combust (rather explosively) in air just fine. But could a catalyst exist that would allow you to extract the hydrogen and could hydrogen make a viable fuel to power an engine with the air we breathe?
So your asking if your just making H and O from H2O could it be a Rxn cuz its just splitting up the molecule? The answer is yes. Whenever there is a change in the chemical bonds or the number of electrons an atom/molecule has there has been a chemical reaction. As water is H-O-H and Hydrogen is H-H and oxygen is O-O there is a change in the bonding and a reaction has happened.
I don't follow you w/ the "more likely only H is being produced". The oxygen has to go somewhere as its very energetically unfavorable to have a free atom of oxygen just floating around.
And yes oxygen can be taken from the atmosphere that's how cars work. The oxidant is the oxygen, reduced species is the gasoline.
A catalyst only lowers energy of activation for a Rxn, so it can't really extract H from the air. It could only catalyze some Rxn that affects this. I'd imagine trying to get H from the air would be difficult due to the low proportions. I'm sure the process is very energy intensive.
Edited by johnm214 (06/15/08 08:24 PM)
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zouden
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: johnm214]
#8528264 - 06/15/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah at first I thought it might all be a mis-translation and that they've just developed an efficient electrolysis system, so that perhaps the car is a powered by electricity (from the grid) but it uses hydrogen instead of a battery to store the energy. But no:
Quote:
"The car will continue to run as long as you have a bottle of water to top up from time to time," Genepax CEO Kiyoshi Hirasawa told local broadcaster TV Tokyo.
Unless he went on to say "...and you plug it in to the wall when you get home", it's quite clear that this is a scam.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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QuantumReality
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Re: Japanese Car That Runs on Water HHO! [Re: zouden]
#8532311 - 06/17/08 01:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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this project has been round for a while, i dont think it will go through unfortunately, too much loss:(
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