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Offlinenonlinear
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the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck.
    #8518890 - 06/13/08 09:07 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I had been growing for several months and had never used an incubator for colonization.  at this point it was winter and i lived in a basement apartment, so i just used a space heater to try and keep things in the low- to mid-70s.  never had any probs with colonization.

then, about a month ago, my buddy bought 2 expensive (like $80) Fluval aquarium heaters.  he was only using 1, so i thought i'd give the other one a try in a roughneck tub-in-tub incubator.

well, i started a bunch of bulgur cakes from old materials i had laying around, and also had a bunch of WBS jars that I put into there.  I kinda lost track of the time passing, but just a few days ago I realized that only a few of my jars were finished and most seemed stalled or something.  this was crazy to me and I began to suspect the incubator was preventing adequate gas exchange.

so I took out all of the jars a couple of days ago and am observing major improvements in colonization.  i even had a large grain jar that didn't seem to recover after a shake.  that was about 2 weeks ago.  now i've got snowy white myc in that jar.  the other jars are growing awesome too.

so, the moral of the story is that if you want to use an incubator to *stablize* your substrate temps, make sure you are able to provide plenty of gas exchange.  use a fan or something.  you will have a lot of convective heat loss, so a better incubator would have a large contact area with the jars for conduction.

i don't think i'll be using an incubator from now on.  i can understand the use for cold climates or to stabilize temperatures, but it's easy enough to get a small space heater to heat the entire room.  also, the gas exchange issues seem to delay things more than not having an incubator in the first place!


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OfflineSef
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: nonlinear]
    #8518919 - 06/13/08 09:16 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Small space heaters are a fire hazard, cost more initially, AND to run over the long term than a fish tank heater. I personally leave the cover off my TiT incubator completely and it stays at 76° and 70% humidity, just happened to work out that way. Another option would be to elevate the top of the lid on the top tub a set amount to allow air and even out the temp.


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Offlinenonlinear
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: Sef]
    #8519171 - 06/13/08 10:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

small space heaters are WAY cheaper than a good aquarium heater.

i paid $25 for my space heater at wal-mart about 7 years ago.  it still works great. 

a good aquarium heater like this fluval will run you about $80.  of course you could get a cheap bastard, but your water temps won't be as stable and you may risk a malfunction and overheat your water and kill your myc.  that's what the fluval package says anyhow


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Offlinesoulsizzle
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: Sef]
    #8519189 - 06/13/08 11:01 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"Gas exchange" and the use of the fan should be mutually exclusive. Gas exchange refers to to the excess gases that a substrate/spawn gives off during colonization. This will build up naturally in the jar/tub/etc. and expel through whatever filter you have used. This is an automatic process and does not require moving air.

Fresh air exchange, on the other hand, will require moving air. This is how CO2 is replaced with fresh oxygen during the fruiting stage.

I have for years incubated my jars in rubbermaid tubs. Note that this is not a TIT, merely a means for storing them out of the way. However, besides temperature, the conditions are the same. I have always had success and quick colonization doing this.


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Offlinenonlinear
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: soulsizzle]
    #8519225 - 06/13/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

argh....

i still don't understand how or why people confuse gas exchange and 'fresh air exchange.'  they are the SAME thing, although gas exchange is the more appropriate and general scientific term.  'fresh air exchange' is an imprecise layman's term that really doesn't mean anything.

seriously people...


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Offlinesoulsizzle
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: nonlinear]
    #8524145 - 06/14/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Certainly as it pertains to this hobby, they are two very different things. I really have no concern with technical scientific terminology. Mycologists have developed their own set of common-usage terms that are more than appropriate. Fresh Air Exchange and Gas Exchange are certainly two different actions whose terminology has been in widespread usage by many more experienced mycologists than you or I for years.


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Edited by soulsizzle (06/14/08 04:27 PM)

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Offlinechobumms
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: soulsizzle]
    #8524214 - 06/14/08 04:42 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Humidity isnt a big factor in your TiT incubator that I know of unless your rubbermaid cover is condensating water onto your jar filters from 100% humidity. That would wick in unwanted conaminants into your substrate, but you would literally have to pour water into your tub with the jars or spill some anyway.

Tit incubators are awesome, I've been getting ten day 100% colonization times with mine. and gas exchange is taken care of on its own. No fan in my incubator, and I keep the lid on. I bought a 30 dollar fish tank heater that works great and have used the 20 dollar one from Wal-mart successfully also.

I think Stamets said himself that colonizing mycelium needs zero attention to gas exchange, as the mycelium works with what it has in the jar.


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Offlinepsychotropic89
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: chobumms]
    #9477942 - 12/22/08 12:10 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Im about to do a new grow using a TiT, but im testing using some mycobags i received. The fish tank heater i had laying around from my last grow using TiT with jars, never really had a problem with it not having optimal gas exchange or any at all. The one time i tried a space heater the heat didnt focus well on the jars and got annoying with the sound. Nothing against space heaters, just not my preference. I will post results to see how the bags react..


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InvisibleShroominit
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: psychotropic89]
    #9478179 - 12/22/08 12:55 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

As far as I'm concerned, the OP just doesn't like TiTs. That doesn't make him gay, he's entitled to his own opinion.

Anyhow, gas exchange is just enough air to supply the myc with oxygen (so they don't suffocate in CO2) Fresh Air Exchange is actually MOVING air. You don't want the particles that are in the air to settle and you always want to get rid of ALL the CO2 so that you don't have buildup of it... and provide a cobweb harboring environment. (and of course my first comment was a joke, I'm not trying to be an asshole.)

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Invisiblebait_
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: Shroominit]
    #9478220 - 12/22/08 01:03 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Who doesn't like tits?!? lol just kidding. 

I don't use a TIT, never had to, but in my mind gas exchange is the passive movement of air across a barrier while fresh air exchange is replacing 'old, stale' air with new air.  -- if that makes any sense.

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Offlineiluan
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: nonlinear]
    #9478561 - 12/22/08 02:26 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

I totally agree with this.  I had the same problem with TiT and my wbs jars.  Many of them were stalling or slow growth.
Now most people on here say that you only need gas exchange and this and that so it took me months to figure out they were not
getting enough air. It made a HUGE difference moving my jars to a top shelf in a closet that has some circulating air in it.


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Offlinedead
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: bait_]
    #9478563 - 12/22/08 02:26 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

If your room temperature is at least 70F, you don't need incubators, period.


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OfflineDamion5050
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: dead]
    #9478640 - 12/22/08 02:44 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

dead said:
If your room temperature is at least 70F, you don't need incubators, period.




:werd: My jars stay at room temp 70-73 degrees all the time.. No incubator what so ever..  And they colonize just fine.. From inoculation to 100% in and around 12-14 days..

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OfflinePOWAtrippinDiscord
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: Damion5050]
    #9479062 - 12/22/08 04:13 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

My house gets down to the upper sixties in the night and I do not use an incubator.  I get 100% on g2g in a week and a little more than that for MS in wbs quart jars.


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Offlineeightfoldmodel
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: nonlinear]
    #9479368 - 12/22/08 05:35 PM (16 years, 28 days ago)

What about a seedling heating pad?  Would that work well to heat the jars?

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OfflineHoneyTea
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: nonlinear]
    #10632393 - 07/06/09 08:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I know it's probably a silly, silly question to ask (but I'm a noob and that's how we learn):

There was talk of using a rubbermaid tub for incubation.  That's what I was planning on for mine (put above the fridge), but I have a question about air exchange.  Do you fan the incubation chamber daily?  Do you snap the lid down on it when leaving it alone?  Could one drill holes in the side and cover with something clean and breathable like medical gauze?

I suppose I'm just still not sure how best to move the air while keeping contams out of the jars.

P.S.  I'm using 1/2 pt. with PF Tek, Cambo and Treasure Coast.


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Edited by HoneyTea (07/06/09 08:23 PM)

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InvisibleTacoHerder
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: HoneyTea]
    #10632536 - 07/06/09 08:40 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

why do you need a incubator? if the temp in your house is from 70-78 leaving them out would be best...


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OfflineHoneyTea
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: TacoHerder]
    #10632651 - 07/06/09 09:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Just out in the open?  Should I use something to cover the inoculation holes in the lid of the jar to prevent airborne stuff?


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InvisibleAlexP
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: HoneyTea]
    #10632659 - 07/06/09 09:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Don't cover the holes, leave in the open. The dry verm layer will take care of airborn contams.


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OfflineRedCube
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Re: the importance of gas exchange, or why tub-in-tub incubators suck. [Re: AlexP]
    #12736586 - 06/13/10 02:28 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AlexP said:
Don't cover the holes, leave in the open. The dry verm layer will take care of airborn contams.




Does daylight affect the colonization speed?

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