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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
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If black holes collide...
    #8514043 - 06/12/08 04:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

do they become one bigger black hole?

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8514075 - 06/12/08 04:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Even better... can we have dark matter black holes?  If so, what happens if a dark matter black hole collides with a normal matter black hole?

(I don't know the answer to your question...)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Seuss]
    #8514095 - 06/12/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Can any of these questions actually be answered? It is just all theory.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8514123 - 06/12/08 05:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Super massive black holes (millions-billions of suns in mass) are thought to be at the center of (almost) every galaxy. When galaxies collide, their black holes spiral towards each other and (probably/possibly) merge. The result would be a larger black hole.

Such a collision is believed to create strong gravitational waves and a lot of other weird things.

There is no theory for what actually happens inside a black hole, but the most logic thing to happen is that two colliding black holes create a more massive black hole. I think we have observed such a collision.

edit: "Jets from the core of the radio galaxy NGC 326 seem to have changed direction suddenly, perhaps as a result of black holes merging.":


http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2002/xmark/

Edited by Annom (06/12/08 05:19 AM)

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Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Annom]
    #8514126 - 06/12/08 05:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
There is no theory for what actually happens inside a black hole, but the most logic thing to happen is that two colliding black holes create a more massive black hole. I think we have observed such a collision.




When?

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/15/00
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8514128 - 06/12/08 05:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, those answers would explain why I couldn't solve my own question with an half hour of searching online. I was curious about it after I said something I can't recall to a friend about galaxies colliding and he replied "I don't think it works like that, two black holes don't just become one bigger black hole." And I thought... "they don't?"

It would seem odd to me that with so much sucking going on that two close black holes could stay separate from each other.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8514136 - 06/12/08 05:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
When?




I edited my post with a pic and link of a possible observation, in 2002, of two black holes that merged. It's just some evidence.

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Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Annom]
    #8514144 - 06/12/08 05:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks. Is there any definite proof of black holes existing though? It's all still theory right, backed up by complex mathematical formulae, but still unprovable? Or have they come up with concrete proof now?

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8514166 - 06/12/08 05:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What is definite proof? Everything is theory in science. There is no such thing as absolute truth. There is strong evidence for black holes, from theory and observation. General relativity predicted them and we indirectly found them.

Black holes follow directly from Einsteins (rather simple) gravity equations (general relativity).

Observations of stars orbiting the center of our galaxy suggest a huge mass sitting there.

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Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Annom]
    #8514190 - 06/12/08 05:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You have a point. I really don't know much about black holes, or physics at all for that matter. Biology interests me far more. But still, it is interesting.

So there isn't absolute proof, but your point is valid. There can't be really. But there is enough evidence to suggest it strongly.

Are there any educated ideas as to where black holes lead, or what happens to the matter that is absorbed by them?

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8514214 - 06/12/08 06:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think the existence of the items being referred to as "black holes" is about certain, but what they definitively are, and happens to the information they swallow, is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_holes

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Invisiblewisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8514218 - 06/12/08 06:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I wonder whether we'll ever know? Seems impossible...

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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8514229 - 06/12/08 06:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The answer to my initial question seems to be that black holes can either merge to form a bigger black hole, or one may recoil away from the other at high speed.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Superkick: Black hole expelled from its parent galaxy

Gravitational rocket propelled the monster at a speed of thousands of kilometers per second by an enormous burst of gravitational waves that accompanies the merger of two black holes the newly formed black hole was ejected from its galaxy. This extreme ejection event, which had been predicted by theorists, has now been observed in nature for the first time. The team led by Stefanie Komossa from the Max Planck Institute for extraterrestrial Physics (MPE) thereby opened a new window into observational astrophysics. The discovery will have far-reaching consequences for our understanding of galaxy formation and evolution in the early Universe, and also provides observational confirmation of a key prediction from the General Theory of Relativity (Astrophysical Journal Letters, May 10, 2008).

When two black holes merge, waves of gravitational radiation ripple outward through the galaxy at the speed of light. Because the waves are emitted mainly in one direction, the black hole itself is pushed in the opposite direction, much like the recoil that accompanies the firing of a rifle or the launching of a rocket. The black hole is booted from its normal location in the nucleus of the galaxy. If the kick velocity is high enough, the black hole can escape the galaxy completely. ...

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Offlinerev 766
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8514236 - 06/12/08 06:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i saw something a couple of years ago saying that black holes aren't really "black" and that we have observed one, if the theory is true.

the basic idea is that as things are sucked into a black hole they spew out radiation. i really wish i could remember the exact science behind it, perhaps someone could help me out?

either way, the way they explained it made perfect sense, and apparently since that theory came about we have observed something similar to this in space. basically, just a lot of radiation coming from what appears to be absolutely nothing.

i could be getting some of this mixed up a bit, i haven't slept, but the basic idea is there is some observational evidence of possible black holes... well, not to mention the picture above.

i should start taking sleeping pills.


--------------------
praise "Bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.

"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: If black holes collide... [Re: rev 766]
    #8514471 - 06/12/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i saw something a couple of years ago saying that black holes aren't really "black" and that we have observed one, if the theory is true.

the basic idea is that as things are sucked into a black hole they spew out radiation. i really wish i could remember the exact science behind it, perhaps someone could help me out?




The radiation that black holes emits is dubbed 'Hawking radiation'.

As far as I know it works something like this....

In space particles routinely and spontaneously come into existence out of nowhere.  They are called virtual particles and they come in particle/anti-particle pairs, which annihilate each other.  So all over the place, even in front of you right now, virtual particles are coming into existence from nowhere and then annihilating each other.

Now a black hole has an 'event horizon' which is a line that on one side no matter or energy may ever escape the black hole and on the other side matter and energy can escape.  So virtual particles pop into existence on the event horizon, but say the particle is on one side and the anti particle is on the other.  Now they cannot annihilate each other and disappear!  So one goes into the black hole, and the other goes out into space as 'Hawking radiation'


I dont know if that made sense, Ill re-read it when I get back from work.

:rocket:

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Disco Cat]
    #8516409 - 06/12/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

After seeing this video of cornstarch + water + Faraday waves, it is how I invision it in my mind....
Who knows.....    :ohwell:

The "colliding black hole" part is at 1.5mins into the video....




>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Seuss]
    #8516963 - 06/12/08 07:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Even better... can we have dark matter black holes?  If so, what happens if a dark matter black hole collides with a normal matter black hole?

(I don't know the answer to your question...)




Better yet, what would happen if a regular matter black hole collided with an antimatter black hole?  I have a feeling some energy "might" escape the event horizon.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: mofo]
    #8517256 - 06/12/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Better yet, what would happen if a regular matter black hole collided with an antimatter black hole?




Who says theres even matter as we know it in there? There probably isn't, and black holes might be the same materials on the inside regardless of what you feed them.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
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InvisibleFerris
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: mofo]
    #8523970 - 06/14/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Even better... can we have dark matter black holes?  If so, what happens if a dark matter black hole collides with a normal matter black hole?

(I don't know the answer to your question...)




Better yet, what would happen if a regular matter black hole collided with an antimatter black hole?  I have a feeling some energy "might" escape the event horizon.




I think I've heard this as a theory for what set off the big bang.


--------------------

Discuss Politics

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: mofo]
    #8523985 - 06/14/08 03:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Even better... can we have dark matter black holes?  If so, what happens if a dark matter black hole collides with a normal matter black hole?

(I don't know the answer to your question...)




Better yet, what would happen if a regular matter black hole collided with an antimatter black hole?  I have a feeling some energy "might" escape the event horizon.




Well I guess some could at the moment the black hole was no longer such, but that's not really something escaping a black hole, that's just something ceasing to be a black hole

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: johnm214]
    #8525752 - 06/15/08 01:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What about the energy that was the black hole?  That would have to escape somewhere if the black hole ceases to be.

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InvisibleAfroshroomerican
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: DieCommie]
    #8525762 - 06/15/08 01:41 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What about the energy that was the black hole?  That would have to escape somewhere if the black hole ceases to be.




Physicists and their conservation of energy hoopla


--------------------
"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."

~Martin Luther King Jr.~

<passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass
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"You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: DieCommie]
    #8527380 - 06/15/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What about the energy that was the black hole?  That would have to escape somewhere if the black hole ceases to be.




I thought that's what I was saying...

Once the blackhole cesases to be, the energy can escape... k?

But it can't escape if the blackhole is still a blackhole, or if the event horizon still exists momentarily after the black hole ceases to exist, if the gravity wave thingies are still propogating (but I don't think you could really observe this, could ya?)

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: wisp]
    #8529888 - 06/16/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tripsis said:
Thanks. Is there any definite proof of black holes existing though? It's all still theory right, backed up by complex mathematical formulae, but still unprovable? Or have they come up with concrete proof now?




This is from Discover magazine's website:

See That Black Hole?
By swallowing huge amounts of energy, a black hole betrays it's whereabouts.


Astronomers believe that black holes--those mysterious collapsed remnants of massive stars--are surrounded by invisible spheres called event horizons. Outside the event horizon, the pull of the black hole is just weak enough to let light or matter escape its clutches; but anything that crosses the horizon gets dragged swiftly into the hole. The region inside the event horizon is completely cut off from the rest of the universe, says Harvard astrophysicist Ramesh Narayan. That’s something unique to a black hole. Recently, Narayan and his colleagues found the most direct observational evidence of this process: they identified four star systems where radiation seems to be disappearing into the maw of a black hole.

Until now, proof of black holes’ existence had been inferred from the powerful gravitational pull on various stars by small, invisible objects. In such cases, only black holes or neutron stars--ultradense leftovers from burned- out supernovas--could seemingly account for the observed motions of the stars. Narayan and his colleagues Jeffrey McClintock and Michael Garcia decided to take a close look at a number of star systems that were likely hosts to black holes.

They used data from several satellites that are monitoring X-ray sources in the universe. In particular, they focused on star systems called X-ray novas. These systems are thought to contain a normal star being robbed of matter by an unseen but heavy companion. Every few decades this matter comes crashing down on the companion, releasing an intense burst of X-rays. The rest of the time, the siphoned-off matter just drizzles down, and little energy radiates away.

Astronomers theorize that the unseen companion can either be a black hole or a neutron star. Narayan says the way to tell the difference between the two would be to watch what happens not during intense bursts but during the quieter phases when the superhot star matter drizzles onto their surfaces. A neutron star would hold on to the matter, Narayan says, but radiate away the heat energy of the matter as X-rays. Like the neutron star, the black hole would pull in the matter from its neighbor. But because of the black hole’s intense gravity, energy would mostly be trapped inside.

Narayan and his colleagues carefully studied the X-rays emitted from nine relatively quiet X-ray novas. In most instances, they detected radiation levels up to a million times fainter than those produced during recent bursts. But in four cases, the level they found was barely detectable, amounting to less than a millionth of that released during comparable bursts. The only way to explain the X-ray shortfall, says Narayan, is if the energy is being swallowed up by a black hole. Says Narayan, We think we’re seeing the actual disappearance of energy through the event horizon.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #8529900 - 06/16/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

And here's a little something regarding the collisions of black holes...

Black Holes Revealed As Forces of Creation
by Susan Kruglinski


Black holes are not merely maelstroms of destruction but may also be creative agents that helped bring order to the cosmos, astronomers have reported in the past year. One clue comes from the discovery of quasars shining just a billion years after the Big Bang. These brilliant objects are believed to be powered by supermassive black holes, which must have begun forming very early in the life of the universe. Stuart Shapiro, an astrophysicist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, speculates that a first generation of stars developed directly from primordial clouds of hydrogen and helium. Some of these stars then collapsed into black holes that grew rapidly by swallowing gas and colliding with one another. “If so, the formation of supermassive black holes may be part of the initial birth of structure in the universe,” he says.

Other evidence comes from the analysis of modern galaxies, most of which have central black holes whose masses seem to correlate closely with the properties of their host galaxies. The implication is that the black holes may have dictated how the galaxies took shape, the opposite of what scientists had assumed. “People always thought of the galaxy as the parent and the black hole as the child born in the galaxy,” says Avi Loeb, an astrophysicist at Harvard University. He and a number of colleagues theorize that energy streaming from hot gas around a supermassive black hole could compress, stir, and irradiate the surrounding environment in a way that helps regulate the growth of the galaxy and the production of stars.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #8529920 - 06/16/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

and one more...

Black Holes Flip Out
by Kathy A. Svitil


Like pirates poring over a yellowed map, astrophysicists sometimes find that X marks the spot of hidden treasure. To David Merritt of Rutgers University in New Jersey, X-shaped formations around some galaxies indicate the likely site of the collision of two supermassive black holes—a crash that would reverberate across the cosmos.

Merritt, along with radio astronomer Ron Ekers of the Australia Telescope National Facility in Sydney, looked at high-resolution radio images of 11 galaxies having unusual lobes of radio-emitting gas that point in skewed directions. These lobes probably formed when matter circling a black hole squirted out as jets along the hole's axis of rotation. But the X-shaped lobes could form only if the jets shot out first along one axis, then along another. In other words, something must have caused the black hole to flip over. There is just one thing powerful enough to do that: another supermassive black hole.



Galaxy NGC 326, seen in radio waves, has two sets of jets. The central source (inset) is probably powered by a black hole.
Photograph courtesy of Matteo Murgia.

Conditions are ripe for disaster when two galaxies plow into each other. Stars would survive, merely settling into new orbits through the combined galaxy. For black holes, however, gravitational interactions could make a collision inevitable. "These mergers, which happen about once a year in the universe, are the most energetic events you can imagine," Merritt says. In just one minute, according to computer simulations, two regions of warped space meet and absorb each other, creating a larger black hole with a tilted spin axis. Torrents of energy spew out, presumably in the form of gravity waves. So far, we have only indirect evidence of such mergers, but the LIGO detectors in Louisiana and Washington State may be able to pick up their gravitational screams.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: johnm214]
    #8530045 - 06/16/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Theres no conventional matter in black holes :hissyfit:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Asante]
    #8530072 - 06/16/08 02:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What is the difference between conventional and non conventional matter?

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: DieCommie]
    #8530653 - 06/16/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

In theory (its all theory) black holes have such pressures that matter is broken down to the string level, a black hole being a dense pack of strings.

Matter breaks down to strings, but so does antimatter, so theres no such thing as a "matter" hole and an "antimatter" hole, because these complex structures cannot exist under such compression.

There won't be "poof!" just "suuuckk" when two black holes collide. That and some kickass gravitational and perhaps temporal effects.

hole + hole = bigger hole

Is a good question :smile: Put enough matter in close proximity and you get a neutron star. But chuck two light neutron stars together and you get a heavier neutron star of smaller diameter Chuck more and more matter in there until you suddenly get the most violent kaboom in the universe, as the neutron star's neutron degenerate matter itself comes apart and an even smaller quark star is formed. Toss some more matter into that and eventually the tiny quark star will implode to a black hole, a string star basically.

As I understand it, and assuming superstrings strike a chord with reality.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: If black holes collide... [Re: Asante]
    #8530741 - 06/16/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quark Star? Didn't the Dead write a song about that? Yall probably already know this next bit but I think it's interesting -from wiki- about the word 'quark'



[edit] Origin of the word
The word was originally coined by Murray Gell-Mann as a nonsense word rhyming with "pork"[9], but without a spelling. Later, he found the word "quark" in James Joyce's book Finnegans Wake, and used the spelling but not the pronunciation:

Three quarks for Muster Mark!
Sure he has not got much of a bark
And sure any he has it's all beside the mark.
In this context, the word rhymes with "mark", and "bark", but the physics term is pronounced "kwork". Gell-Mann's own explanation:[10][11]

The pronunciation is also justified by the fact that in most regional accents of American English, the combinations "uar" and "war" are almost always pronounced "wor."

In 1963, when I assigned the name "quark" to the fundamental constituents of the nucleon, I had the sound first, without the spelling, which could have been "kwork". Then, in one of my occasional perusals of Finnegans Wake, by James Joyce, I came across the word "quark" in the phrase "Three quarks for Muster Mark". Since "quark" (meaning, for one thing, the cry of the gull) was clearly intended to rhyme with "Mark," as well as "bark" and other such words, I had to find an excuse to pronounce it as "kwork". But the book represents the dream of a publican named Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker. Words in the text are typically drawn from several sources at once, like the "portmanteau" words in "Through the Looking Glass". From time to time, phrases occur in the book that are partially determined by calls for drinks at the bar. I argued, therefore, that perhaps one of the multiple sources of the cry "Three quarks for Muster Mark" might be "Three quarts for Mister Mark," in which case the pronunciation "kwork" would not be totally unjustified. In any case, the number three fitted perfectly the way quarks occur in nature.
The phrase "three quarks" is a particularly good fit (as mentioned in the above quote), as at the time, there were only three known quarks, and since quarks appear in groups of three in baryons.

In Joyce's use, it is seabirds giving "three quarks", akin to three cheers, "quark" having a meaning of the cry of a gull (probably onomatopoeia, like "quack" for ducks). The word is also a pun on the relationship between Munster and its provincial capital, Cork


Dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes.
Reason tatters, the forces tear loose from the axis.
Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion.
Shall we go, you and I while we can
Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds?

Mirror shatters in formless reflections of matter.
Glass hand dissolving to ice petal flowers revolving.
Lady in velvet recedes in the nights of good-bye.
Shall we go, you and I while we can
Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds?


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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