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OfflineAScannerDarkly
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Moo456]
    #8508927 - 06/10/08 08:47 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

On psychedelics youll be watching walls move around and patterns form behind your eyes, while on dissasociatives you might end up having a conversation with your dead grandmother


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[quote]Voido said:
[quote]drken said:
Dont get me wrong he is a funny guy, just not a great actor. Smoke some bud and watch the movie, weed helps me pick out shitty acting. [/quote]

no your just stoned. stop smoking pot [/quote]

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Moo456]
    #8508992 - 06/10/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moo456 said:
It seems to me that THC does have depressant effects.




You're thinking of CBD.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8509026 - 06/10/08 09:11 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
as someone said, psychedelics blend your mind with reality, dissociative remove your mind from reality.




not so sure i agree with this, sometimes on large doses of ketamine astral projection will occur, and that is the realest thing i've ever experienced.  it's all part of reality.

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InvisibleMoo456
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8509137 - 06/10/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
You're thinking of CBD.




Good point. Just go ahead and take all the times I mentioned THC and replace that with weed.

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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Moo456]
    #8509154 - 06/10/08 09:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moo456 said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
You're thinking of CBD.




Good point. Just go ahead and take all the times I mentioned THC and replace that with weed.



even then, indica is more depressant, sativa is more stimulant


--------------------
And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna

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InvisibleMoo456
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8509170 - 06/10/08 09:53 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

All weed is somewhat sedating.

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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Moo456]
    #8509228 - 06/10/08 10:09 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

varies from person to person


--------------------
And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: AScannerDarkly]
    #8509251 - 06/10/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AScannerDarkly said:
On psychedelics youll be watching walls move around and patterns form behind your eyes, while on dissasociatives you might end up having a conversation with your dead grandmother




I think you're confusing dissociatives with deliriants ;- /


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!

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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: astronaut]
    #8509263 - 06/10/08 10:17 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

astronaut said:
Quote:

AScannerDarkly said:
On psychedelics youll be watching walls move around and patterns form behind your eyes, while on dissasociatives you might end up having a conversation with your dead grandmother




I think you're confusing dissociatives with deliriants ;- /



ya that seems to be a recurring mistake in this thread


--------------------
And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna

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Offlineultimo101
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8509426 - 06/10/08 10:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zinglons Acolyte said:
Quote:

astronaut said:
Quote:

AScannerDarkly said:
On psychedelics youll be watching walls move around and patterns form behind your eyes, while on dissasociatives you might end up having a conversation with your dead grandmother




I think you're confusing dissociatives with deliriants ;- /



ya that seems to be a recurring mistake in this thread



guilty lol

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OfflineAScannerDarkly
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8509521 - 06/10/08 11:34 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zinglons Acolyte said:
Quote:

astronaut said:
Quote:

AScannerDarkly said:
On psychedelics youll be watching walls move around and patterns form behind your eyes, while on dissasociatives you might end up having a conversation with your dead grandmother




I think you're confusing dissociatives with deliriants ;- /



ya that seems to be a recurring mistake in this thread




Whoopsie


--------------------
[quote]Voido said:
[quote]drken said:
Dont get me wrong he is a funny guy, just not a great actor. Smoke some bud and watch the movie, weed helps me pick out shitty acting. [/quote]

no your just stoned. stop smoking pot [/quote]

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: AScannerDarkly]
    #8509688 - 06/11/08 12:22 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

physical 3d reality i meant.

you see some cool stuff on dissociatives.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: Moo456]
    #8509965 - 06/11/08 02:47 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Moo456 said:
It seems to me that THC does have depressant effects. Dissociatives also tend to have stimulating effects as well though. Redgreenvines you say salvia makes you sleepy, but I tend to walk around on it. People can also get very active on PCP as we all know.
I would have to say that the hallucinogenic effects of THC are from its dissociative effects. It seems more like it only dissociates a minor system and thats why it lacks the extreme disconnection from the world. Dissociation is not one of its main effects so it shouldnt really be generalized as one.



what I am trying to say is that dissociative and deleriant are poor scientific distinctions.
all the dissociatives and deleriants are actually psychoactives or psychedelics.
what distinguishes their general effects are
for dissociatives, anaesthetic types of separation from waking world and
for deleriants, intense, long-lasting effects from unpredictably small doses.
otherwise the range of experiences from these substances correspond well with the range of experiences from other psychedelic substances.
i.e. the salvia scale applies - effect vs. dose
always the highest doses of all of these produce deleriant effects - and that includes alcohol.

normally salvia (which i do frequently) has some sleepy moments, though usually I am fully awake on it, it is very easy to take in bed and fall asleep right afterwards.

other people suggest that in the hour afterwards I seem less communicative than usual, as if slowed down. it may just be my response to the rapidity of onset, peak and passing of the effects. Others have called salvia a dissociative as well, though I don't see it as more dissociative than marijuana, just faster and wilder and harder to dose consistently.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8511183 - 06/11/08 12:53 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Moo456 said:
It seems to me that THC does have depressant effects. Dissociatives also tend to have stimulating effects as well though. Redgreenvines you say salvia makes you sleepy, but I tend to walk around on it. People can also get very active on PCP as we all know.
I would have to say that the hallucinogenic effects of THC are from its dissociative effects. It seems more like it only dissociates a minor system and thats why it lacks the extreme disconnection from the world. Dissociation is not one of its main effects so it shouldnt really be generalized as one.



what I am trying to say is that dissociative and deleriant are poor scientific distinctions.
all the dissociatives and deleriants are actually psychoactives or psychedelics.
what distinguishes their general effects are
for dissociatives, anaesthetic types of separation from waking world and
for deleriants, intense, long-lasting effects from unpredictably small doses.




It's true that drugs were initially lumped together by their subjective effects, but we now know chemically what makes a drug dissociative versus deliriant, so these classifications are beyond subjective opinion.

So this,
Quote:


always the highest doses of all of these produce deleriant effects - and that includes alcohol.



, isn't exactly true. While many psychedelics can cause psychomimetic delirium at high doses, they are not deliriants by the accepted definition of the term, as they do not inhibit acetylcholine.

Deliriants are a subset of dissociatives, distinguished by their dissociative (or rather, inhibitory) effect on the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, the pharmacological action responsible for deliriant hallucinations.


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8511695 - 06/11/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what I am trying to say is that dissociative and deleriant are poor scientific distinctions.
all the dissociatives and deleriants are actually psychoactives or psychedelics.





There's such a thing as a non psychoactive psychedelic? :eek:


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8511964 - 06/11/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

no but there's such thing as a psychoactive that's not psychedelic.

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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: deranger]
    #8512154 - 06/11/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

ya it was worded funny lol


--------------------
And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: astronaut]
    #8512502 - 06/11/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

the presence or absence of acetylcholine inhibition is not decisively the only cause of delerium.
under analysis, the intensity of memory content and hallucinatory imagination to the point of overriding the sensorium is known as delerium.

we also know that the deleriant effect is definitely possible without anti-acetylcholinergic biochemistry at play, and the intensity of persisted memory resonance has to cross a threashold, usually because of dosage or emotional distress.

that it does so with tropanes at low doses is a separate issue, but these compounds do not have a monopoly on the effect of consciousness with delerium.

delerium can also certainly be achieved with alcohol (at high dosages - toxicity), and also with high doses of recreational psychoactives, or intense emotional states as well as dreaming.

at this point too little is scientifically established about consciousness, so these
semi-descriptive drug groupings have formed, but they are inadequate descriptions
of the drugs and their effects accross the range of possible dosages.

take care that you are not just thumping bibles at me, I actually know that the science is young, while the bravado [of Dilletants] is as strong as it ever was.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleMoo456
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8512519 - 06/11/08 06:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Delirium is a state of mind and not a mode of action. Same with dissociation and apparently the same for psychedelia. People always refer to salvia as a psychedelic even though its mode of action has nothing to do with the 5-ht receptor like traditional psychedelics.

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: What is the difference between a psychedelic and a dissociative? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8513152 - 06/11/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the presence or absence of acetylcholine inhibition is not decisively the only cause of delerium.




True, there are many causes of delirium, from psychoactive drugs (and not just deliriants), and from other causes as well (such as certain fevers and encephalopathies). However, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that my response was more than adequate in covering this point:

Quote:

astronaut said:While many psychedelics can cause psychomimetic delirium at high doses, they are not deliriants by the accepted definition of the term, as they do not inhibit acetylcholine.




I'm basing this entirely on a Wikipedia article, and one that doesn't have citations at that. However, unless you or anyone else finds a definition of deliriant psychedelics that goes beyond acetylchlorine inhibition, Wikipedia is what I'll go by.

We really are arguing semantics, though. I do agree that the definitions of drug classes are outdated, and that a drugs profile can change profoundly as dose is changed.


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!

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