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Offlineray40cal
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Firearms.
    #8487057 - 06/05/08 07:52 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Gun regulations. How do you feel about them? They vary from state to state. Do you believe it is constitutionally responsible to allow the citizens of the United States to carry concealed weapons if licensed to do so? I wanna get some poll counts on all your thoughts.

My thoughts: Don't infringe the rights of Americans to possess and carry firearms. The way I see it, violent criminals will always have access to firearms, and felons can't buy them legally in the first place, yet still have them (even full autos, without a class 3 license). I've been to many different schools and actually felt relatively safe in the inner city schools where students would have guns on them---- You never ever hear about some kid shooting up an inner city school, its always some suburban, rural highschool, or college. If teachers or students were allowed to possess weapons on campus via proper licensing, someone could have stopped the VA Tek killing spree. IMO more people should carry. What do you do if you're in a mall and someone starts lighting off rounds at random people? It'd be best to neutralize the threat via stopping force, lethal or not.

No matter what law is in place, even a complete firearm ban, violent criminals will always have guns and use them against good people. The reason I brought up this topic is because I heard Obama is wanting to enforce a policy banning the possession of semiautomatic handguns. This is irrational. The only people who would abide by a law like that are the ones who wouldn't use semi-automatics criminally in the first place.
Citizens should be allowed to:
You may choose 2
Carry concealed handguns/revolvers if licensed
Be allowed to own firearms, but not handguns.
Not be allowed to own any type of firearm whatsoever.
Be allowed to attach .50 cal machine gun turrets to their vehicle, chainguns to the sides, and do whatever they want.


Votes accepted from (06/05/08 07:44 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
    #8487677 - 06/05/08 11:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ray40cal said:
I've been to many different schools and actually felt relatively safe in the inner city schools where students would have guns on them----



I'm not so sure the students that go to school there feel that way

Quote:

You never ever hear about some kid shooting up an inner city school,



You do where I live.

Quote:

What do you do if you're in a mall and someone starts lighting off rounds at random people?



I run my ass the fuck out of there like and hope I don't catch a bullet in the back.


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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8487691 - 06/05/08 11:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

What do you do if you're in a mall and someone starts lighting off rounds at random people?



I run my ass the fuck out of there like and hope I don't catch a bullet in the back.




In a better world, someone with some training and practice would draw a perfectly legal, registered .45 sidearm and put 2 in the emo fucktard that's ruining people's day.

It sounds scary, but if the general populace carried concealed weapons like cellphones, criminals would have to get real jobs and suicidal attention whores might think twice about bringing a rifle to the mall.

Handguns shouldn't be so mystical... They are just tools that require greater responsibility. :shrug:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Firearms. [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #8487750 - 06/05/08 12:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
In a better world, someone with some training and practice would draw a perfectly legal, registered .45 sidearm and put 2 in the emo fucktard that's ruining people's day.




In a better world, I could go shopping for sneakers without even thinking about the possibility of a stranger trying to shoot at me. We live in a shitty world, and we could speculate all day about what would make it a better one. While I am not oppossed to gun ownership, I am skeptical that things would be more peaceful if more people carried guns around.

Quote:

It sounds scary, but if the general populace carried concealed weapons like cellphones, criminals would have to get real jobs and suicidal attention whores might think twice about bringing a rifle to the mall.



Again, this is idle speculation. What do you base it on?


--------------------
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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8487812 - 06/05/08 12:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I base it on the fact that while I am at the gunrange, surrounded by responsible gun owners, I feel safer than being at the mall. When I am with my friend who carries a weapon, I feel more secure. :shrug:

The chances of someone in McDonalds going apeshit and shooting people is rare... But sadly, it's even more rare to see citizens protecting themselves against the few bad apples out there. And the reason they can't is because it's illegal.

Criminals don't obey laws.

It won't solve all crime, and it won't stop insane people from killing other people... I just hate seeing GUNS made to be evil.

Criminals should be afraid to mug me... not the other way around.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Firearms. [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #8488086 - 06/05/08 01:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Firearms. [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #8488396 - 06/05/08 03:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
In a better world, someone with some training and practice would draw a perfectly legal, registered .45 sidearm and put 2 in the emo fucktard that's ruining people's day.





welcome to a better world

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8488502 - 06/05/08 03:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
In a better world, someone with some training and practice would draw a perfectly legal, registered .45 sidearm and put 2 in the emo fucktard that's ruining people's day.





welcome to a better world

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM




What. The. Fuck.

If that woman holding the baby had gotten startled and shifted in the wrong direction, that "hero" would have blown a baby's head clear off. Fuck that shit. I can't believe you consider this responsible gun use. The gun was less than a foot away from a baby's head when that dude started firing it. To protect a cash register? Fuck that asshole. If you are trying to prove that more people should own guns because it keeps us safe you have FAILED.


--------------------
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but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8488540 - 06/05/08 04:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Seemed fine to me.  Both guns were very close.  Its harder to miss when your close :smile:

I'd rather have had the clerks gun shot very close than the bad guys.

Hopefully the guy would have taken the money and ran, but you never know.

Show a gun and demand money, get shot by robees= justice


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8488783 - 06/05/08 05:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
If that woman holding the baby had gotten startled and shifted in the wrong direction, that "hero" would have blown a baby's head clear off. Fuck that shit.




yeah, typical response of everyone is to jump into the line of
fire when they see the act in progress, boy I hope you're never
in that situation but if you ever are is there some place I
should send the flowers?



Quote:

The gun was less than a foot away from a baby's head when that dude started firing it. To protect a cash register? Fuck that asshole. If you are trying to prove that more people should own guns because it keeps us safe you have FAILED.




yep... a foot away, a man with a gun and a mask was also about
the same distance and he had intentions of committing at least
one crime, what's to say there wouldnt have been 4 homocides in
addition to the robbery, it's in the news every day "robbery/homocide"

seriously, at point blank range he did a fine job, he didnt even
break the glass in the door, in a panic situation like that each
of his shots hit his target, the man may very well have saved
that babys life so guess what he was thinking of the children


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Asante]
    #8489144 - 06/05/08 06:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
<img src=http://www.pinkpistols.org/images/splash3.jpg>




:lol: thats pretty good. :thumbup:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8492493 - 06/06/08 02:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
yeah, typical response of everyone is to jump into the line of
fire when they see the act in progress,



Could have easily happened. Very easily. You're a mother holding your baby and all of a sudden people whip out guns and start firing. I'm not saying you would jump in the line of fire but when the margin of error is less than 12 inches and no one has time to think...Could have EASILY happened.

Quote:

boy I hope you're never
in that situation but if you ever are is there some place I
should send the flowers?



If it happens to me I hope it convinces more people that "guns kill people" Let them fly a banner over my grave that has a gun with a big red X over it. Let my tombstone read "should have moved to the Alps when he had the chance."

Quote:

yep... a foot away, a man with a gun and a mask was also about
the same distance and he had intentions of committing at least
one crime, what's to say there wouldnt have been 4 homocides in
addition to the robbery, it's in the news every day "robbery/homocide"



This is also a good point. I wasn't there, and all I know is what I saw, and what I saw was a guy firing a gun next to a baby's head. Apparently to protect a cash register. Perhaps it was apparent to the man firing the gun that the robber was about to start shooting people. In which case yes he did a good job. And I don't have any sympathy for the armed robber either. That's not my point. All I know is that if you are trying to convince people that guns make the world more safe this video did not convince me.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8492587 - 06/06/08 02:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

yep... a foot away, a man with a gun and a mask was also about
the same distance and he had intentions of committing at least
one crime, what's to say there wouldnt have been 4 homocides in
addition to the robbery, it's in the news every day "robbery/homocide"



This is also a good point. I wasn't there, and all I know is what I saw, and what I saw was a guy firing a gun next to a baby's head. Apparently to protect a cash register. Perhaps it was apparent to the man firing the gun that the robber was about to start shooting people. In which case yes he did a good job. And I don't have any sympathy for the armed robber either. That's not my point. All I know is that if you are trying to convince people that guns make the world more safe this video did not convince me.




Yeah, I think guns definatly lead to more violence, and it would be good if we can get rid of them.

2 things:

2nd amendment and freedom coucel against this approach

We can't get rid of guns as they can be made from scratch and their are plenty everywhere, so how about we just allow people to protect themselves how they wish?


As for analyzing the guys actions:  You seem to be aware that its a stressful situation.  All I'm saying is that before you condemn someone like this you should be damn sure his actions were unreasonable.  I don't think taking a clear shot at an armed man is manifestly unreasonable, so he should not be handeled by the law.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8492914 - 06/06/08 04:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

because of the angle of the camera shot, it appears the baby was much closer to the action than I think it actually was..


and I'm sure the kid wasn't pleased with how loud it was but there's really no way the baby was in any danger

that's as ridiculous as the claim made in the Heller case by DC that handguns are unfit for use as personal protection because in those situations one's hands would be shaking too badly to hold a pistol and you'd shoot bystanders.
completely idiotic and in no way based in reality

that guy's aim would have had to be a full 45 degrees wrong (or more) to hit that kid....  that does not happen, period


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Firearms. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8493141 - 06/06/08 05:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
While I am not oppossed to gun ownership, I am skeptical that things would be more peaceful if more people carried guns around.





More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws

Please read this book.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8493558 - 06/06/08 07:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

> Yeah, I think guns definatly lead to more violence, and it would be good if we can get rid of them.

I disagree.  Guns enable violence of a greater magnitude, but violence will happen regardless of a gun being present.  In theory, it would be good if we were rid of guns, but in reality we cannot keep guns away from bad people, thus our only option is to try and level the playing field by ensuring that everybody (sane) has access to a gun.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Seuss]
    #8493707 - 06/06/08 08:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

eh, magnitude of violence is what I meant :shrug:


I agree with your conclusions, but guns still cause more violence imo.

THe problem w/ the national debate on this shit is that nobody wants to talk about the second amendment, must be that long confusing legal language it uses, or whether the govenrment should prevent people not known to be dangerous from having a gun.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8493784 - 06/06/08 08:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

With greater gun control brings as a consequence more crime.

We have laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of psychotics and convicted felons, those laws need to be enforced, not pass more laws that are arbitrarily enforced and/or infringe on law abiding citizens rights.  And that is exactly what those fear-mongers want, to decrease our rights, NOT make us any safer, fuck them and fuck anyone who is so scared shitless as to infringe freedoms in exchange for feeling safer while being put in more danger through their own ignorance.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Chemy]
    #8493832 - 06/06/08 08:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is what fear-mongers hate, this Elizabeth Edwards, a rabid gun-control nut fears armed law abiding citizens:

Quote:

RALEIGH –Elizabeth Edwards says she is scared of the “rabid, rabid Republican” who owns property across the street from her Orange County home — and she doesn’t want her kids going near the gun-toting neighbor.

Edwards, the wife of Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, particularly recalls the time neighbor Monty Johnson brought out a gun while chasing workers investigating a right of way near his property. The Edwards family has yet to meet Johnson in person.

“I wouldn’t be nice to him, anyway,” Edwards said in an interview. “I don’t want my kids anywhere near some guy who, when he doesn’t like somebody, the first thing he does is pull a gun out. It scares the business out of me.”




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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Chemy]
    #8493919 - 06/06/08 09:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Chemy said:
With greater gun control brings as a consequence more crime.

We have laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of psychotics and convicted felons, those laws need to be enforced, not pass more laws that are arbitrarily enforced and/or infringe on law abiding citizens rights.  And that is exactly what those fear-mongers want, to decrease our rights, NOT make us any safer, fuck them and fuck anyone who is so scared shitless as to infringe freedoms in exchange for feeling safer while being put in more danger through their own ignorance.




yeah, I agree this is likely.  I certainly think having guns legally available helps people feel more confident and prevent  some problems.  I hope you didn't perceive my post above to contradict this point.  I'm saying if we had no guns its likely that, at least for civilians, the integral of the magnitude times frequency of violent acts as a function of time would likely decrease.

I agree that it is implausible and repugnant to the rule of law and a free society to attempt this, and it cannot succeed, due to the relative simplicity of creating a gun and the large numbers of guns allready available.  Someone w/ a lathe or some metal fabrication device can easily make a single-shot gun, which would be plenty effective if guns were illegal- nobody would have them to defend themselves.

One thing I HATE, is the dispartate standards applied to law enforcment in my state.  Why does law enforcment get to carry concealed weapons when off duty without obtaining permits?  Why do they get to go into bars with the gun?  Why do they get to drink alcohol while having a gun?  Why do regular citizens not get to enjoy these freedoms?

I'm more afraid of the police than the criminals.  Maybe its a function of the area I live in, but the cops are assholes and fuck w/ people minding their own buisness.  Criminals have yet to do half the shit I've had done to me by cops- all relativly minor, except for when I was takled by a cop when I was 16 for smoking a ciggerete and charged w/ assault on an officer (expunged thank got) but whatever, still the cops are worse than the crooks in my experience.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8495437 - 06/07/08 07:13 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:Why do they get to go into bars with the gun?  Why do they get to drink alcohol while having a gun?  Why do regular citizens not get to enjoy these freedoms?




Well, we certainly can enjoy that sort of freedom, so long as nobody ever finds out about it..  :plot:

alaska and vermont both have a wide-open concealed carry law..  if you're a citizen, and you can own guns, you can carry a concealed firearm.  there may be details i'm leaving out there but i'm pretty clear on the don't need a permit part.  the majority of the other states have shall-issue permits, which means that if you want one.. so long as you've not been in legal hot water, they must issue one to you.


the whole issue is silly, it's pretty clear for anyone who understands what numbers are.  when an area with little to no gun control laws passes some draconian bullshit, crime goes up.  when they pass laws such as shall-issue, crime goes down.


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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8496130 - 06/07/08 02:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i shouldnt have to register a firearm with the state. not to be a cliche, but I fear the goverment that fears my gun.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Firearms. [Re: uber_aj]
    #8496651 - 06/07/08 06:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

awesome video post. i also would like to buy that guy a beer.

more guns in responsible hands = less crime.


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Offlineray40cal
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8496761 - 06/07/08 06:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

edit: I accidently quoted the wrong reply.

The man in the video who shot the robber quickdrew perfectly in a stressfull situation and never missed his intended target; so he obviously practices with his glock.40 and knows how to use it. Basicly he used a tool to get 4 people out of a dangerous situation, he never endangered the child or anyone else. The man he shot, did however endanger the people in that room, and is likely a felon who never legally purchased the brandished firearm.  When incidents like this hit the papers, it will make people think twice before robbing innocent people.


--------------------


Edited by ray40cal (06/10/08 11:04 AM)


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OfflineRun DMT
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8496833 - 06/07/08 07:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I am all for CCW and gun rights. If more people carried concealed weapons I believe criminals would think again b4 robbing someone. I think fear of violence enables violent criminals because then they know they are the ones in charge.....if that makes sense. I think gun safety should be taught at a young age so kids don't see a gun and start paying with it. It does fall on the gun owner but knowledge is power.


--------------------
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Offlineray40cal
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Run DMT]
    #8498400 - 06/08/08 02:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

well if it wasn't possible to create a gun then they might as well be outlawed, there'd just be nothing to outlaw... but they've been around for a looooong time. We can make a law right now to get rid of guns in the entire country, yay! In that scenario though, who would be the people 'getting rid' of their guns? registered, non-felon, law abiding citizens. All the criminals would still have their weapons. I got my first 2 pistols off the black market, and a sawed off shotty - all of which have been sold. All 3 of them together cost about the same as my one legally registered .40 caliber semi auto. Outlawing guns would be a stupid idea. I wouldn't play a game of chess with no queen.

That gun has legally saved my life before, and it never even had to be fired. So keep them legal.


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Edited by ray40cal (06/08/08 02:29 AM)


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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
    #8498732 - 06/08/08 04:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Like I have said before sooner or later guns will be completely outlawed, so if you believe in defending freedom fight now while you have a chance!

It won't get any easier in the future....

Would you rather go down in glory, or live as a sniveling little slave to the likes of Hilary Clinton?


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Daishi]
    #8502506 - 06/09/08 06:38 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

if guns are outlawed it will simply create another monsterously violent addition to the black market. People will always be able to get firearms no matter what the legal status is. Let's say they are outlawed, and some thug was about to kill you - would you rather be caught with one or without one?


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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
    #8502855 - 06/09/08 10:19 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'd rather be caught with one, but I do think that deaths may be reduced by heavily criminalizing firearms.  There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased.  It would seem that the only real effect would be heat-of-the-moment shootings (such as self-defense shootings or fights/anger-motivated shootings) and accidents by fools.

I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive.  If this is what your saying I'll disagree.

I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.

The issue w/ guns in my mind isn't so much one of practiciality or violence, its one of freedom and law (including self defense).

Quote:

Like I have said before sooner or later guns will be completely outlawed, so if you believe in defending freedom fight now while you have a chance!




I doubt it, our constitution would be in more serious jeopardy than I would have thought if this is possible.  We'll see what the heller court decides in a bit I suppose.

I forsee states, and probably the damn feds, just whittling away at who may own a firearm through further licensure and restrictions.

Look at the divide in many states between what an off-duty police officer can do and what a regular citizen may do... pretty disgusting.

I really don't see any reason for gun licenses, but I think this is the means by which legal possesion will be restricted.  Kinda silly that the public seems to support licensure, but whatever... we'll see.

Maybe at some point folks will figure out we shouldn't need the government's permission before acting in a manner that harms no one.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
    #8502912 - 06/09/08 10:53 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I want to live somewhere where it's the law to have a gun.

Any criminal in that community will think twice before raping someone or stealing, when there's a very high chance their victim carries deadly force.

And in a place like America, with the second amendment, there should be civilians with tanks and AA guns, if they wanted them. Switzerland has it, and they are fine. When's the last time you heard about a heavily armed Swiss madman shooting up a shopping district? You don't, because he'd be surrounded by people armed with pistols and assault rifles and howitzers. Why? In Switzerland, as everyone is part of the army, you can buy any weapon you want*

*Probably can't buy nerve gas and bacteria, but that's a good thing. Those are not self defense weapons.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8502926 - 06/09/08 11:01 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Switzerland must have a rather low burglary rate...


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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8503227 - 06/09/08 01:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

johnm214 writes:

Quote:

There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased. 




A bold and counter-intuitive statement indeed. Certainly in the few cities in the US where the possession of firearms has been banned (think Washington DC) shootings haven't decreased. Quite the reverse. I'm going to need to see some of this "scholarly evidence" of which you speak.

Quote:

I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive.  If this is what your saying I'll disagree.




It never has in the past - anywhere it's been tried and anytime it's been tried.  Quite the reverse, in fact. See the UK, Australia, Washington DC, etc. Then look at the figures for states which have enacted "must issue" CCW legislation. Violent crime rates in those states dropped. That's not theory, that's evidence. Data.

Your idea of "intuitive" certainly differs from my own. To me it's a given that violent criminals will flourish to a greater extent in a citizenry of disarmed citizens than a citizenry where almost any potential adult victim the criminal accosts could be armed.

Quote:

I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.




Oh, the irony!




Phred


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Phred]
    #8503326 - 06/09/08 02:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:

johnm214 writes:

   
Quote:


    There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased.






A bold and counter-intuitive statement indeed. Certainly in the few cities in the US where the possession of firearms has been banned (think Washington DC) shootings haven't decreased. Quite the reverse. I'm going to need to see some of this "scholarly evidence" of which you speak.

   
Quote:


    I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive.  If this is what your saying I'll disagree.






It never has in the past - anywhere it's been tried and anytime it's been tried.  Quite the reverse, in fact. See the UK, Australia, Washington DC, etc. Then look at the figures for states which have enacted "must issue" CCW legislation. Violent crime rates in those states dropped. That's not theory, that's evidence. Data.

Your idea of "intuitive" certainly differs from my own. To me it's a given that violent criminals will flourish to a greater extent in a citizenry of disarmed citizens than a citizenry where almost any potential adult victim the criminal accosts could be armed.

   
Quote:


    I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.






Oh, the irony!





Well said Phred. :thumbup:


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Re: Firearms. [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #8503360 - 06/09/08 02:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8503617 - 06/09/08 03:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased.  It would seem that the only real effect would be heat-of-the-moment shootings (such as self-defense shootings or fights/anger-motivated shootings) and accidents by fools.

I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive.  If this is what your saying I'll disagree.






Except you're wrong, because that's exactly what the evidence -- actual studies, actual numbers, not *feelings* and not *anecdotes* -- shows to be true.

When gun control is lessened and citizens are given a greater freedom to arm and carry firearms, crime goes down.  When those rights are infringed, crime goes up.  There's plenty examples of both -- check out Florida circa 1987 for the former, and DC circa 1977 for the latter.  In Florida's case, they passed Shall-Issue, and crime (and murder) has been on the decrease -- even when the national trend was on the INcrease.  DC passed a handgun ban in 1977, and their murder rate increased and has remained one of the highest since then.


Need more?  OK.

England banned handguns in 1997.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3761626.stm

Crime in general is up, record levels of gun crime, skyrocketing sexual offenses...  this was in 2004, 7 years after the law that would make england safe was passed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

Oh there's another -- handgun crime up 40% in the 2 years since the gun ban?  DEARY MY HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!


Fact of the matter is, prohibition does not work.
It didn't work for alcohol.
It's not working for drugs.
It won't work for guns.
The. End.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Phred]
    #8506240 - 06/10/08 05:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
johnm214 writes:

Quote:

There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased. 




A bold and counter-intuitive statement indeed. Certainly in the few cities in the US where the possession of firearms has been banned (think Washington DC) shootings haven't decreased. Quite the reverse. I'm going to need to see some of this "scholarly evidence" of which you speak.

Quote:

I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive.  If this is what your saying I'll disagree.




It never has in the past - anywhere it's been tried and anytime it's been tried.  Quite the reverse, in fact. See the UK, Australia, Washington DC, etc. Then look at the figures for states which have enacted "must issue" CCW legislation. Violent crime rates in those states dropped. That's not theory, that's evidence. Data.

Your idea of "intuitive" certainly differs from my own. To me it's a given that violent criminals will flourish to a greater extent in a citizenry of disarmed citizens than a citizenry where almost any potential adult victim the criminal accosts could be armed.

Quote:

I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.




Oh, the irony!

Phred






Well I looked for these studies I refrenced and I can't find em, so I must have just made them up/imagined them.  I guess  your right in doubting their existance.  Everything I could find showed no change or paradoxical changes from gun access legislation, so I'm comfortable there's no evidence supporting my position.

I even went to the brady coalition's page and for all the hot air they spout, they can produce nothing of substance to back their positions, which seems pretty silly to me.  All they do is whine about fatalities, while not showing their proposed solutions would accomplish anything.

Though it doesn't prove my position, the cities and places in the US where guns were banned or severly restricted were almost certainly doomed to fail due to the small geographic area affected, and I think this is reasonable to forsee. 

I still think massive penalties, a'la war on drugs style where folks w/ guns are all thrown through the ringer and people selling guns would be in jail for longer or as long as if they'd killed someone or almost killed them would likely reduce violence incidence times severity products, but I don't have any evidence of this, and seems I won't since I don't think there's suitable models.


Maybe I'll try and find some data on the UK, I think they've got pretty severe restrictions don't they?


Just seems that at a certain point, when you criminalize almost all legitimate buisness and throw folks in jail at a very high rate, that their will be less guns available for crimes and people would have to use other means, which I would presume would reduce severity of violence and disuade folks, but who knows. 


For me anyways, the whole discussion is academic, as it doesn't bear on my interpretation of the second amendment or my views on whether people should be able to own guns free of registration and other stuff.  I read a study in my search that some 70 % and higher percentage of folks thought gun registration was a good idea- why?

I honestly can't think of what this accomplishes besides allowing a neighbor to know what's in their neighbor's house, which I don't see how that's any of their buisness.  It might also alow police to figure out who could have been the source of a bullet, something likely of marginal utility, and perhaps figure out if a criminal defendant likely has a gun. 

None of these really seem useful to me.  I'd really like to hear why folks overwhelmingly support gun registration?  It seems like something that makes no sense, has no support in evidence, and is completely an irrational ignorance... any ideas?


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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8506276 - 06/10/08 06:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

see my post above, with a link to a bbc article...  the bbc's had tons on the failure of britain's gun bans.


it might make no sense to you, but it doesn't make much sense that injecting ourselves with a virus will in fact protect us from that virus


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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8506282 - 06/10/08 06:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I still think massive penalties, a'la war on drugs style where folks w/ guns are all thrown through the ringer and people selling guns would be in jail for longer or as long as if they'd killed someone or almost killed them would likely reduce violence incidence times severity products, but I don't have any evidence of this, and seems I won't since I don't think there's suitable models.




Why don't you just get rid of the bill of rights altogether? If you want to live somewhere with gun prohibition, come to London or Manchester. Guns here are really illegal, possession alone lands you 15 years in jail. Doesn't seem to stop the growing numbers of gun use.

If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. And fuck those people, those are the sort that use fear and violence to get what they want. If I had a gun, it'd be to defend myself.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8506470 - 06/10/08 09:26 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
Switzerland must have a rather low burglary rate...




http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita&b_printable=1
Burglaries

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders
Murders

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
Murders involving guns

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Rapes





funny how russia is #2 in murder rates, while no civilian in russia is legally allowed to carry a firearm.

BTW i've seen some youtube vids of russian citizens who made some scarey ass firearms out of scratch. Full auto compact pistol sized smg's , guns that can shoot underwater with some spear type thing etc....

I attribute the US's murder rate as being quite high because of the drug trade.... Lotttts of money to be made off coke or meth in this country. Enough that people will kill for it. Not to mention the desperate junkies who will kill for something stupid like $40.00.  On that note, Thank you to all who cultivate for personal use and do not contribute to nasty cartels. 5 shrooms and 5 bowls for yew. Who's really fighting the war on drugs? Am I off topic already? :tongue:


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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
    #8506535 - 06/10/08 10:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i am adamantly pro-gun, but isn't there kind of a misstep here in this thread? we can't just relate crime increase/decrease based solely off of whether there is gun control or not. there are always a million and one factors influencing a society/culture right?


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Syle]
    #8506562 - 06/10/08 10:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

the gun control link is pretty cut and dry, really..  gun control leading to a reduction in crime is so uncommon it would be listed as a "very rare" side effect -- occuring as often as with a sugar pill (placebo)


and i know someone's going to say it, so i'll cut it off now.

america is not violent because we have guns.

there are more americans killed with knives, bats, and good old fashioned fists and feet, than most other nations have murders by ANY means.

we're americans, we just like to kill each other.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Syle]
    #8506726 - 06/10/08 11:38 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
i am adamantly pro-gun, but isn't there kind of a misstep here in this thread? we can't just relate crime increase/decrease based solely off of whether there is gun control or not. there are always a million and one factors influencing a society/culture right?




Well, I don't see a misstep. It's just a thread where people can cast a vote and discuss their views on firearm legality, and how it affects society. It could have been about gas prices or global warming, but I wouldn't want to read it.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #8506732 - 06/10/08 11:40 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Just wait until we have phasers... Set to 16 and vaporize each other.

Ah, the future.

In all seriousness, it's been said... Gun laws give guns to outlaws. The end. Logic pretty much follows from that point.

Honest, sane Americans should be able to defend themselves... from criminal, possibly insane Americans. :shrug:


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Syle]
    #8507518 - 06/10/08 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
i am adamantly pro-gun, but isn't there kind of a misstep here in this thread? we can't just relate crime increase/decrease based solely off of whether there is gun control or not. there are always a million and one factors influencing a society/culture right?




Absolutely true.  Even if there is 100% correlation between guns and murders (which their isnt) ,that still doesn't show that guns are the cause of murders.  (correlation is not causation)

Things like culture, immigration, economics, etc. confound the link betweens guns and murders.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8508053 - 06/10/08 06:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

I still think massive penalties, a'la war on drugs style where folks w/ guns are all thrown through the ringer and people selling guns would be in jail for longer or as long as if they'd killed someone or almost killed them would likely reduce violence incidence times severity products, but I don't have any evidence of this, and seems I won't since I don't think there's suitable models.




Why don't you just get rid of the bill of rights altogether? If you want to live somewhere with gun prohibition, come to London or Manchester. Guns here are really illegal, possession alone lands you 15 years in jail. Doesn't seem to stop the growing numbers of gun use.

If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. And fuck those people, those are the sort that use fear and violence to get what they want. If I had a gun, it'd be to defend myself.




I didn't say I wanted to live somewhere with gun prohibition, I said that if there was massive criminalization of guns, a'la war on drugs style, that there would probably be less violence.  As yet, I don't think there's any evidence supporting this position.

I think I've made my position clear, and that you've simply presumed my contention that very harsh gun penalties will eventually reduce magnitudexprevalence of violence means that I'm for said penalties.

Read the thread buster, just cuz I've argued a result will follow and that you percieve the ends to be positive doesn't mean I support the means.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8508207 - 06/10/08 07:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The evidence does not support your reasoning; not with gun control, and not with the war on drugs, either.  The model does not work.  It never has.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #8508432 - 06/10/08 08:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
The evidence does not support your reasoning; not with gun control, and not with the war on drugs, either.  The model does not work.  It never has.




ok?

So what's your point?



BTW, I allready said that, at least twice

Quote:

As yet, I don't think there's any evidence supporting this position.





Quote:

Well I looked for these studies I refrenced and I can't find em, so I must have just made them up/imagined them.  I guess  your right in doubting their existance.  Everything I could find showed no change or paradoxical changes from gun access legislation, so I'm comfortable there's no evidence supporting my position.





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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8508541 - 06/10/08 09:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So you're just going to continue believing in the tooth fairy, after your parents have told you it was a lie?  Your position is untenable.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #8508641 - 06/10/08 09:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

your crude analogy isn't relevant

you've presented no evidence my position is untenable.

To my knowledge we've never had a country w/ reasonable freedom of gun possesion or reasonable availability of guns go to strict prohibition w/ draconian penalties for such.  If we have, I'd be interested in seeing the analysis of the effect.

If you want to argue about the liklihood of my belief being accurate, present some evidence against it, and show the relevance.

I'm not interested in your poor analogies or your unsupported opinions, and though I'm not at all sure of the relevance of the discussion, I'd like to see the evidence you have rebutting my presumption and your take on how that bears on the issue.


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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
    #8508931 - 06/10/08 10:48 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This is one area in which I differ with the Democratic majority. I don't think that harsher gun laws will solve the problem of violent school shootings and the like. If licensed adult citizens wish to carry concealed weapons it should be their right to do so.


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