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 Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,865
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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 Re: Firearms.  [Re: johnm214]
#8495437 - 06/07/08 05:13 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:Why do they get to go into bars with the gun? Why do they get to drink alcohol while having a gun? Why do regular citizens not get to enjoy these freedoms?
Well, we certainly can enjoy that sort of freedom, so long as nobody ever finds out about it.. 
alaska and vermont both have a wide-open concealed carry law.. if you're a citizen, and you can own guns, you can carry a concealed firearm. there may be details i'm leaving out there but i'm pretty clear on the don't need a permit part. the majority of the other states have shall-issue permits, which means that if you want one.. so long as you've not been in legal hot water, they must issue one to you.
the whole issue is silly, it's pretty clear for anyone who understands what numbers are. when an area with little to no gun control laws passes some draconian bullshit, crime goes up. when they pass laws such as shall-issue, crime goes down.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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 uber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
Loc: Much love to you all
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8496130 - 06/07/08 12:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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i shouldnt have to register a firearm with the state. not to be a cliche, but I fear the goverment that fears my gun.
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Syle
Kenai Sigh
Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
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Re: Firearms. [Re: uber_aj]
#8496651 - 06/07/08 04:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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awesome video post. i also would like to buy that guy a beer.
more guns in responsible hands = less crime.
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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!
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ray40cal
omnitrippint
Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 1,308
Loc: midwest side
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8496761 - 06/07/08 04:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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edit: I accidently quoted the wrong reply.
The man in the video who shot the robber quickdrew perfectly in a stressfull situation and never missed his intended target; so he obviously practices with his glock.40 and knows how to use it. Basicly he used a tool to get 4 people out of a dangerous situation, he never endangered the child or anyone else. The man he shot, did however endanger the people in that room, and is likely a felon who never legally purchased the brandished firearm. When incidents like this hit the papers, it will make people think twice before robbing innocent people.
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Edited by ray40cal (06/10/08 09:04 AM)
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Run DMT
information is Power
Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 1,096
Loc: ignorance is bliss
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8496833 - 06/07/08 05:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am all for CCW and gun rights. If more people carried concealed weapons I believe criminals would think again b4 robbing someone. I think fear of violence enables violent criminals because then they know they are the ones in charge.....if that makes sense. I think gun safety should be taught at a young age so kids don't see a gun and start paying with it. It does fall on the gun owner but knowledge is power.
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I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder - "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal?
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ray40cal
omnitrippint
Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 1,308
Loc: midwest side
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Run DMT]
#8498400 - 06/08/08 12:28 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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well if it wasn't possible to create a gun then they might as well be outlawed, there'd just be nothing to outlaw... but they've been around for a looooong time. We can make a law right now to get rid of guns in the entire country, yay! In that scenario though, who would be the people 'getting rid' of their guns? registered, non-felon, law abiding citizens. All the criminals would still have their weapons. I got my first 2 pistols off the black market, and a sawed off shotty - all of which have been sold. All 3 of them together cost about the same as my one legally registered .40 caliber semi auto. Outlawing guns would be a stupid idea. I wouldn't play a game of chess with no queen.
That gun has legally saved my life before, and it never even had to be fired. So keep them legal.
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Edited by ray40cal (06/08/08 12:29 AM)
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Daishi
Prime Mover
Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 89
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
#8498732 - 06/08/08 02:01 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Like I have said before sooner or later guns will be completely outlawed, so if you believe in defending freedom fight now while you have a chance!
It won't get any easier in the future....
Would you rather go down in glory, or live as a sniveling little slave to the likes of Hilary Clinton?
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Man has to be man--by choice; he has to hold his life as a value--by choice; he has to learn to sustain it--by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—-by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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ray40cal
omnitrippint
Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 1,308
Loc: midwest side
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Daishi]
#8502506 - 06/09/08 04:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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if guns are outlawed it will simply create another monsterously violent addition to the black market. People will always be able to get firearms no matter what the legal status is. Let's say they are outlawed, and some thug was about to kill you - would you rather be caught with one or without one?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
#8502855 - 06/09/08 08:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'd rather be caught with one, but I do think that deaths may be reduced by heavily criminalizing firearms. There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased. It would seem that the only real effect would be heat-of-the-moment shootings (such as self-defense shootings or fights/anger-motivated shootings) and accidents by fools.
I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive. If this is what your saying I'll disagree.
I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.
The issue w/ guns in my mind isn't so much one of practiciality or violence, its one of freedom and law (including self defense).
Quote:
Like I have said before sooner or later guns will be completely outlawed, so if you believe in defending freedom fight now while you have a chance!
I doubt it, our constitution would be in more serious jeopardy than I would have thought if this is possible. We'll see what the heller court decides in a bit I suppose.
I forsee states, and probably the damn feds, just whittling away at who may own a firearm through further licensure and restrictions.
Look at the divide in many states between what an off-duty police officer can do and what a regular citizen may do... pretty disgusting.
I really don't see any reason for gun licenses, but I think this is the means by which legal possesion will be restricted. Kinda silly that the public seems to support licensure, but whatever... we'll see.
Maybe at some point folks will figure out we shouldn't need the government's permission before acting in a manner that harms no one.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 9 months, 21 days
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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
#8502912 - 06/09/08 08:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I want to live somewhere where it's the law to have a gun.
Any criminal in that community will think twice before raping someone or stealing, when there's a very high chance their victim carries deadly force.
And in a place like America, with the second amendment, there should be civilians with tanks and AA guns, if they wanted them. Switzerland has it, and they are fine. When's the last time you heard about a heavily armed Swiss madman shooting up a shopping district? You don't, because he'd be surrounded by people armed with pistols and assault rifles and howitzers. Why? In Switzerland, as everyone is part of the army, you can buy any weapon you want*
*Probably can't buy nerve gas and bacteria, but that's a good thing. Those are not self defense weapons.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Switzerland must have a rather low burglary rate...
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8503227 - 06/09/08 11:24 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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johnm214 writes:
Quote:
There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased.
A bold and counter-intuitive statement indeed. Certainly in the few cities in the US where the possession of firearms has been banned (think Washington DC) shootings haven't decreased. Quite the reverse. I'm going to need to see some of this "scholarly evidence" of which you speak.
Quote:
I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive. If this is what your saying I'll disagree.
It never has in the past - anywhere it's been tried and anytime it's been tried. Quite the reverse, in fact. See the UK, Australia, Washington DC, etc. Then look at the figures for states which have enacted "must issue" CCW legislation. Violent crime rates in those states dropped. That's not theory, that's evidence. Data.
Your idea of "intuitive" certainly differs from my own. To me it's a given that violent criminals will flourish to a greater extent in a citizenry of disarmed citizens than a citizenry where almost any potential adult victim the criminal accosts could be armed.
Quote:
I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.
Oh, the irony!
Phred
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SoY
I am the LizardKing
Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Phred]
#8503326 - 06/09/08 12:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
johnm214 writes:
Quote:
There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased.
A bold and counter-intuitive statement indeed. Certainly in the few cities in the US where the possession of firearms has been banned (think Washington DC) shootings haven't decreased. Quite the reverse. I'm going to need to see some of this "scholarly evidence" of which you speak.
Quote:
I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive. If this is what your saying I'll disagree.
It never has in the past - anywhere it's been tried and anytime it's been tried. Quite the reverse, in fact. See the UK, Australia, Washington DC, etc. Then look at the figures for states which have enacted "must issue" CCW legislation. Violent crime rates in those states dropped. That's not theory, that's evidence. Data.
Your idea of "intuitive" certainly differs from my own. To me it's a given that violent criminals will flourish to a greater extent in a citizenry of disarmed citizens than a citizenry where almost any potential adult victim the criminal accosts could be armed.
Quote:
I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.
Oh, the irony!
Well said Phred. 
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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 9 months, 21 days
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,865
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8503617 - 06/09/08 01:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased. It would seem that the only real effect would be heat-of-the-moment shootings (such as self-defense shootings or fights/anger-motivated shootings) and accidents by fools.
I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive. If this is what your saying I'll disagree.
Except you're wrong, because that's exactly what the evidence -- actual studies, actual numbers, not *feelings* and not *anecdotes* -- shows to be true.
When gun control is lessened and citizens are given a greater freedom to arm and carry firearms, crime goes down. When those rights are infringed, crime goes up. There's plenty examples of both -- check out Florida circa 1987 for the former, and DC circa 1977 for the latter. In Florida's case, they passed Shall-Issue, and crime (and murder) has been on the decrease -- even when the national trend was on the INcrease. DC passed a handgun ban in 1977, and their murder rate increased and has remained one of the highest since then.
Need more? OK.
England banned handguns in 1997.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3761626.stm
Crime in general is up, record levels of gun crime, skyrocketing sexual offenses... this was in 2004, 7 years after the law that would make england safe was passed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
Oh there's another -- handgun crime up 40% in the 2 years since the gun ban? DEARY MY HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!
Fact of the matter is, prohibition does not work.
It didn't work for alcohol.
It's not working for drugs.
It won't work for guns.
The. End.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Firearms. [Re: Phred]
#8506240 - 06/10/08 03:41 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
johnm214 writes:
Quote:
There is enough anectdotal and scholarly evidence to suggest to me that if we criminalized possesion of guns, non-police shootings in this (US) country would decrease, and that therefore deaths would be decreased.
A bold and counter-intuitive statement indeed. Certainly in the few cities in the US where the possession of firearms has been banned (think Washington DC) shootings haven't decreased. Quite the reverse. I'm going to need to see some of this "scholarly evidence" of which you speak.
Quote:
I think its kind of a silly argument that overall violence times severity wouldn't be decreased with massive criminalization of firearms- seems intuitive. If this is what your saying I'll disagree.
It never has in the past - anywhere it's been tried and anytime it's been tried. Quite the reverse, in fact. See the UK, Australia, Washington DC, etc. Then look at the figures for states which have enacted "must issue" CCW legislation. Violent crime rates in those states dropped. That's not theory, that's evidence. Data.
Your idea of "intuitive" certainly differs from my own. To me it's a given that violent criminals will flourish to a greater extent in a citizenry of disarmed citizens than a citizenry where almost any potential adult victim the criminal accosts could be armed.
Quote:
I think folks kind of poison their position by taking stances that seem hard to prove and illogical.
Oh, the irony!
Phred
Well I looked for these studies I refrenced and I can't find em, so I must have just made them up/imagined them. I guess your right in doubting their existance. Everything I could find showed no change or paradoxical changes from gun access legislation, so I'm comfortable there's no evidence supporting my position.
I even went to the brady coalition's page and for all the hot air they spout, they can produce nothing of substance to back their positions, which seems pretty silly to me. All they do is whine about fatalities, while not showing their proposed solutions would accomplish anything.
Though it doesn't prove my position, the cities and places in the US where guns were banned or severly restricted were almost certainly doomed to fail due to the small geographic area affected, and I think this is reasonable to forsee.
I still think massive penalties, a'la war on drugs style where folks w/ guns are all thrown through the ringer and people selling guns would be in jail for longer or as long as if they'd killed someone or almost killed them would likely reduce violence incidence times severity products, but I don't have any evidence of this, and seems I won't since I don't think there's suitable models.
Maybe I'll try and find some data on the UK, I think they've got pretty severe restrictions don't they?
Just seems that at a certain point, when you criminalize almost all legitimate buisness and throw folks in jail at a very high rate, that their will be less guns available for crimes and people would have to use other means, which I would presume would reduce severity of violence and disuade folks, but who knows.
For me anyways, the whole discussion is academic, as it doesn't bear on my interpretation of the second amendment or my views on whether people should be able to own guns free of registration and other stuff. I read a study in my search that some 70 % and higher percentage of folks thought gun registration was a good idea- why?
I honestly can't think of what this accomplishes besides allowing a neighbor to know what's in their neighbor's house, which I don't see how that's any of their buisness. It might also alow police to figure out who could have been the source of a bullet, something likely of marginal utility, and perhaps figure out if a criminal defendant likely has a gun.
None of these really seem useful to me. I'd really like to hear why folks overwhelmingly support gun registration? It seems like something that makes no sense, has no support in evidence, and is completely an irrational ignorance... any ideas?
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,865
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8506276 - 06/10/08 04:25 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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see my post above, with a link to a bbc article... the bbc's had tons on the failure of britain's gun bans.
it might make no sense to you, but it doesn't make much sense that injecting ourselves with a virus will in fact protect us from that virus
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 9 months, 21 days
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Re: Firearms. [Re: johnm214]
#8506282 - 06/10/08 04:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I still think massive penalties, a'la war on drugs style where folks w/ guns are all thrown through the ringer and people selling guns would be in jail for longer or as long as if they'd killed someone or almost killed them would likely reduce violence incidence times severity products, but I don't have any evidence of this, and seems I won't since I don't think there's suitable models.
Why don't you just get rid of the bill of rights altogether? If you want to live somewhere with gun prohibition, come to London or Manchester. Guns here are really illegal, possession alone lands you 15 years in jail. Doesn't seem to stop the growing numbers of gun use.
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. And fuck those people, those are the sort that use fear and violence to get what they want. If I had a gun, it'd be to defend myself.
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ray40cal
omnitrippint
Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 1,308
Loc: midwest side
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
Switzerland must have a rather low burglary rate...
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita&b_printable=1
Burglaries
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders
Murders
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
Murders involving guns
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Rapes
funny how russia is #2 in murder rates, while no civilian in russia is legally allowed to carry a firearm.
BTW i've seen some youtube vids of russian citizens who made some scarey ass firearms out of scratch. Full auto compact pistol sized smg's , guns that can shoot underwater with some spear type thing etc....
I attribute the US's murder rate as being quite high because of the drug trade.... Lotttts of money to be made off coke or meth in this country. Enough that people will kill for it. Not to mention the desperate junkies who will kill for something stupid like $40.00. On that note, Thank you to all who cultivate for personal use and do not contribute to nasty cartels. 5 shrooms and 5 bowls for yew. Who's really fighting the war on drugs? Am I off topic already? 
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Syle
Kenai Sigh
Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
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Re: Firearms. [Re: ray40cal]
#8506535 - 06/10/08 08:24 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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i am adamantly pro-gun, but isn't there kind of a misstep here in this thread? we can't just relate crime increase/decrease based solely off of whether there is gun control or not. there are always a million and one factors influencing a society/culture right?
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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!
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