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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8481666 - 06/03/08 10:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:goose:

You don't think think its worthwhile to find if marijuana causes changes in the brain?

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InvisibleArtVandaley
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Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 626
Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: johnm214]
    #8482444 - 06/04/08 04:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No i just think that exessive use like what was studied after 20 years would produce worse effects with alcohol. that is if you live after it...

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InvisibleveggieM

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 17,538
Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: Le_Canard]
    #8482813 - 06/04/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The last 2 paragraphs kind of sums it up...

A spliff test for science
June 3, 2008 - NewScientist

It's the oldest but most important scientific question when two phenomena appear related: does one cause the other, vice versa, or is the apparent relationship pure coincidence? The question came up again this week when an Australian study demonstrated that 15 men who had all smoked marijuana heavily for at least 10 years had shrunken brain structures compared to those in non-users.

So was it the cannabis that on average shrank their hippocampuses by 12% and their amygdalas by 7%? Or were these same regions small to start with in these men, and if so, was it something that played a part in their strong liking for cannabis?

Certainly, both these regions are heavily affected by cannabis because they are both unusually rich in molecular receptors for delta-9-tetrahydrocannibol (THC), the psychoactive component in weed. The hippocampus is vital for storing memories and for the perception of time, and marijuana is known to affect both. Likewise, the amygdala is the brain's "fear" centre, and plays a key role in whether we react aggressively to events. Again, this fits with the observation that cannabis users sometimes develop paranoia.

To come back to the Australia study, is it equally possible that such prolonged exposure to cannabis wears out and shrinks these cannabis-sensitive regions? Again, we're back to cause and effect.

The only way to resolve it once and for all (as pointed out by the Australian researchers themselves at the end of their paper) would be to have brain scans of people before and after they began smoking cannabis. That way, you could see whether these regions did actually shrink the more cannabis they were exposed to. Or whether some people with unusually small regions at the outset turned out to be more attracted to the weed.

Unfortunately, a study to find out by deliberately giving cannabis to volunteers then following them for many years to see if their brains shrank would be unethical. Ethical comparisons could only be done if scans had been performed randomly on a wide population of children and kept as a general resource for researchers. If any of the scanned children subsequently became heavy dope users, it would be easy to check back and monitor whether brain regions were changing size. But obtaining the scans would cost a huge amount of money without any guarantee that it would yield any findings of interest.

So for now, we simply don't know for sure whether cannabis is genuinely changing brain architecture. And the same dilemmas apply to study of all addictions. Which is why some researchers contacted by New Scientist cautioned against sensationalising the Australian results.

"You must be very careful looking at this paper in isolation," says Tim Williams, who studies addiction at the University of Bristol. "With this kind of study, you can't tease out cause and effect." Williams also pointed out that a study in 2005 of long-term cannabis users by researchers at Harvard Medical School found that there was no effect on the size of their hippocampuses. "I'm surprised the Australians found an effect where others haven't," he adds.

The take-home message is clear! Be cautious about concluding too much from addiction studies which might confuse cause and effect. Yes, it could be down to the drug, but equally, it could be down to your pre-existing brain architecture, and the effect of that on your personality.

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Invisibletimekiller
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8482918 - 06/04/08 09:31 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

those are the parts of the brain I'm trying to shrink. Guess I'm gonna have to start smokin a whole lot more. :bongload:


--------------------
SATAN?

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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: timekiller]
    #8482949 - 06/04/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I need to find a study that will give me 5 joints a day for 20 years... I'm looking for a new career move, and that certainly sounds like something I can do.

I hope they do a new one. :smile:

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Offlineboletusoftruth
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #8483942 - 06/04/08 03:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The hippocampus regulates memory and emotion, while the amygdala plays a critical role in fear and aggression.





So after 20 years of of smoking a joint every 4 hours, they have become mellow people who struggle to remember someone's name after they meet them.

If the facts in this shitty study are accurate, not half bad I'd say.


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InvisibleArtVandaley
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Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 626
Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: boletusoftruth]
    #8485192 - 06/04/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

-

Edited by ArtVandaley (06/04/08 08:25 PM)

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InvisibleArtVandaley
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8485209 - 06/04/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah sure, someone who is stoned would be a more approachable person apposed to someone blind drunk... thats just my 2c

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InvisibleDepthToTheCore
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8485277 - 06/04/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This story was on our 6pm news last night. They went right into it, but of course, failed to mention that the study was based on only 15 people.

I wasn't surprised. Fuck the media.


--------------------


"Those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." - George Carlin

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InvisibleArtVandaley
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #8486065 - 06/04/08 11:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah stinkin a current affair type shows...

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InvisibleDepthToTheCore
JeeBuzz
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8486221 - 06/05/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nah it was 6pm Nine News, which was even worse.

:shrug:


--------------------


"Those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." - George Carlin

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InvisibleArtVandaley
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #8486883 - 06/05/08 04:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Cant trust any programs these days then... :glittershitz:

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OfflineN2loma
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: Le_Canard]
    #8492540 - 06/06/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'd like to hear about the statistical strength of the apparent effects on the brain structures, and whether other factors were looked into as possible correlations with the differences (if real). It is all too easy for drug researchers to report insignificant effects to mainstream news sources to get recognition for their work or support related public policies.


--------------------
"So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed

Good Guitars Don't Cry

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OfflineN2loma
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #8492546 - 06/06/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You know, I don't even like the amygdala much anyways...:grin:


--------------------
"So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed

Good Guitars Don't Cry

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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,379
Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: N2loma]
    #8492967 - 06/06/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

N2loma said:
It is all too easy for drug researchers to report insignificant effects to mainstream news sources to get recognition for their work or support related public policies.




This is true, but publishing in a relatively high-tier peer-reviewed journal is much more difficult.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: badchad]
    #8493011 - 06/06/08 02:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah...

The point that pisses me off is that people read the coverage of some studies and immediatly conclude the study is crap and that science is being manipulated.

Garbage.

These news writers just write correlation as causality, suggestions as facts, and possiblities and provens.

I'll try and find the text of this study and see what it says.

As to those saying that it means nothing cause the sample size was so small, I'm not so sure.  If the variables were controlled properly the size shouldn't matter, so long as the results were signifigant.  However a study like this will always have problems w/ the differences in the populations studied, as this wasn't an experiment.

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OfflineAp0calypse
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8493152 - 06/06/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Damn i'm half-way there. That being said, this "study" has no scientific merit at all...

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: DrOli]
    #8501883 - 06/08/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DrOli said:
Same as alcohol, so what.




No where NEAR as bad as alcohol.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Offlinemyshoesarered
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: ArtVandaley]
    #8501930 - 06/08/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Good God, you wouldn't smoke 5 of anything daily for 20 years and expect absolutely nothing bad to happen.


--------------------
"What a beautiful face I have found in this place that is circling all round the sun,
and when we meet on a cloud
I'll be laughing out loud,
I'll be laughing at everyone I see,
Can't believe, how strange it is to be anything at all..."

"...nobody has yet died of amazement & you always come back to planet Earth..."

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Heavy Marijuana Use Shrinks Brain Parts: Study [Re: Ap0calypse]
    #8502146 - 06/09/08 12:34 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ap0calypse said:
Damn i'm half-way there. That being said, this "study" has no scientific merit at all...




Why?  Cuz you said so?



I'm glad everyone is so opinioanted, too bad their opinion appears to rest on nothingness.


ANyways, found this, though the journal doesn't appear to be among those I've access to other than through a source that likely has an emargo.

The differening volume isn't corolated w/ the perforamnce difference in the cannabis users, so I wonder if there isn't a selection bias thing here... third variable being that fuckups are more likely to use marijuana?


Quote:

Regional Brain Abnormalities Associated With Long-term Heavy Cannabis Use

Murat Yücel, PhD, MAPS; Nadia Solowij, PhD; Colleen Respondek, BSc; Sarah Whittle, PhD; Alex Fornito, PhD; Christos Pantelis, MD, MRCPsych, FRANZCP; Dan I. Lubman, MB ChB, PhD, FRANZCP

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2008;65(6):694-701.

Context  Cannabis is the most widely used illicit drug in the developed world. Despite this, there is a paucity of research examining its long-term effect on the human brain.

Objective  To determine whether long-term heavy cannabis use is associated with gross anatomical abnormalities in 2 cannabinoid receptor–rich regions of the brain, the hippocampus and the amygdala.

Design  Cross-sectional design using high-resolution (3-T) structural magnetic resonance imaging.

Setting  Participants were recruited from the general community and underwent imaging at a hospital research facility.

Participants  Fifteen carefully selected long-term (>10 years) and heavy (>5 joints daily) cannabis-using men (mean age, 39.8 years; mean duration of regular use, 19.7 years) with no history of polydrug abuse or neurologic/mental disorder and 16 matched nonusing control subjects (mean age, 36.4 years).

Main Outcome Measures  Volumetric measures of the hippocampus and the amygdala combined with measures of cannabis use. Subthreshold psychotic symptoms and verbal learning ability were also measured.

Results  Cannabis users had bilaterally reduced hippocampal and amygdala volumes (P = .001), with a relatively (and significantly [P = .02]) greater magnitude of reduction in the former (12.0% vs 7.1%). Left hemisphere hippocampal volume was inversely associated with cumulative exposure to cannabis during the previous 10 years (P = .01) and subthreshold positive psychotic symptoms (P < .001). Positive symptom scores were also associated with cumulative exposure to cannabis (P = .048). Although cannabis users performed significantly worse than controls on verbal learning (P < .001), this did not correlate with regional brain volumes in either group.

Conclusions  These results provide new evidence of exposure-related structural abnormalities in the hippocampus and amygdala in long-term heavy cannabis users and corroborate similar findings in the animal literature. These findings indicate that heavy daily cannabis use across protracted periods exerts harmful effects on brain tissue and mental health.





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