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OfflinePhred
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Obama throws his church under the bus
    #8467956 - 05/31/08 06:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well, well, well.

Obama finally notices what everyone else who ever looked into his church has known all along (*cough*Oprah Winfrey*cough*) -- it's been run by racist moonbats for at least the last two decades.

One sharp cookie, that Barry.

From http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/31/obama-resigns-from-controversial-church/

Quote:

May 31, 2008
Obama resigns from controversial church
Posted: 06:22 PM ET

(CNN) — Barack Obama resigned Saturday from his Chicago church — where controversial sermons by his former pastor and other ministers had created repeated political headaches for the frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination — his campaign confirmed.

The resignation comes days after the Rev. Michael Pfleger, a visiting Catholic priest, mocked Obama's Democratic rival, Sen. Hillary Clinton, for crying in New Hampshire during the runup to the primary there.

Previously, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright — former pastor at Trinity United Church of Christ and Obama's minister for about 20 years — drew unwanted attention for the campaign when videos of several of his fiery sermons surfaced.

In them, Wright suggested the U.S. government may be responsible for the spread of AIDS in the black community and equated some American wartime activities to terrorism.

Obama has said he was not present for the controversial sermons by Wright or Pfleger and had condemned both — most recently saying he was "deeply disappointed" by Pfleger's "divisive, backward-looking rhetoric."






Phred


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Phred]
    #8468008 - 05/31/08 07:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

:congrats:

It's about time.  I am shocked though.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Phred]
    #8468117 - 05/31/08 07:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Is his wife next? (under the bus)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Offlined33p
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8468375 - 05/31/08 09:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Is his wife next? (under the bus)




Seeing that would be worth an Obama presidency.


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: d33p]
    #8468389 - 05/31/08 09:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It's sad that being part of an inner-city black church turned into such a liability, but I guess "look at the scary black man" sells copy. It's insulting that he had to make it so dramatically clear that he doesn't agree with everything everybody in his church says(who does? Does every Catholic support misogyny, kiddie diddling and telling AIDS stricken countries not to use condoms?), but hopefully this will finally put an end to these stupid guilt-by-association smears.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8468406 - 05/31/08 09:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
It's sad that being part of an inner-city black church turned into such a liability, but I guess "look at the scary black man" sells copy. It's insulting that he had to make it so dramatically clear that he doesn't agree with everything everybody in his church says(who does? Does every Catholic support misogyny, kiddie diddling and telling AIDS stricken countries not to use condoms?), but hopefully this will finally put an end to these stupid guilt-by-association smears.




rofl


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8468439 - 05/31/08 09:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
It's sad that being part of an inner-city black church turned into such a liability, but I guess "look at the scary black man" sells copy. It's insulting that he had to make it so dramatically clear that he doesn't agree with everything everybody in his church says(who does? Does every Catholic support misogyny, kiddie diddling and telling AIDS stricken countries not to use condoms?), but hopefully this will finally put an end to these stupid guilt-by-association smears.




Don't bring collectivism into this.

This is about one church, one candidate, and has nothing to do with being part of an "inner citty black church".

The church seems insane. Why do those people want to here politics from the preacher? I would be offended no matter what the message is, its patronizing. I don't need some pastor telling me what I should know or feel- especially when the jackass has NO evidence whatsoever showing what he claims.


And come on, this church's leadership is fucking crazy. People are playing clipps of what those guys are saying, not what they look like or where they're located.

I agree w/ zappa: Obama got w/ this church to get a platform to address a bunch of people, and now he's getting bit in the ass.

Too bad people have to realize yet again that mixing religion, politics, and crazy people doesn't work too well.,


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: d33p]
    #8468441 - 05/31/08 09:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Great retort.


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8468765 - 05/31/08 11:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Don't bring collectivism into this.




What? What does this have to do with communism?

Quote:


This is about one church, one candidate, and has nothing to do with being part of an "inner citty black church".




Yes, it does. That's the entire story right there. If you've never been to a black church, Wright looks crazy. If you have, he doesn't. He speaks in an elevated and frenetic tone, uses strong hyperbole, and gesticulates. If you're used to a sedate and monotone preacher, he looks crazy. If you have even a basic familiarity with African-American religious culture, you'd realize that this is a convention, a rhetorical style. As for his message, yes, he's often hostile to the US government and figures of authority, but again, this is an inner-city black church. If you've lived in the ghetto and you're not sharply critical of the government, well, you're in the sharp minority. The entire appeal of the Wright story was using most Americans' infamiliarity and suspicions with mainstream black culture to paint Obama as some sort of Black Panther or crazy, angry black man.

Compare the treatment of Wright to the treatment of Parsley and Hagee. While the media did eventually raise questions about McCain's pastors, it did so much more quietly and in a much less sensational manner. While Wright had some stupid ideas(AIDS as a creation of the government; although this is obviously crazy, if you consider the historical basis for such suspicions, aka Tuskeegee, and the indifferent response to AIDS in the '80s due to its association with gays, blacks and drug users, it's at least somewhat understandable if false), he never advocated hatred, bigotry or meanness of spirit. Hagee meanwhile advocated despicable hatred towards Catholics, gays, Jews and Muslims and advocated war with Iran in order to bring about the end of the world. Parsley likewise advocated genocide against a fifth of the world's population in addition to the de rigeur homophobia and misogyny. And while there has been no evidence that Obama ever agreed with Wright or had anything other than a spiritual relationship with him, McCain clearly sought out the support of both of those nutjobs: it's one thing to have a friend with eccentric beliefs and a tendency for hyperbole; it's quite another to make political bedfellows with hateful political operatives who almost certainly expect political concessions in exchange for their political support. The latter raises legitimate and serious questions about what kind of leader he'll be; the former is a transparent hitjob.

Quote:


The church seems insane.




Again, you've been shown ten second clips from hour long sermons. These sermons were occured over many, many years and yet only a few sermons amongst literally thousands were ever shown. It's a highly skewed and unrepresentative sample designed to shock and anger not inform. If you even listened to the full sermons, you'd realize that the impression from the soundbyte was contrary to the message of the sermon itself. For instance, the Youtube videos showed Wright saying "the chickens are coming home to roost" without showing that this was a paraphrase from a State Department official and that Wright condemned the attacks as a great tragedy but said that the society that lives by the sword dies by the sword. Now you may disagree with him, but to tar a pastor as a hatemonger or insane for advocating pacifism and referring to a concept the CIA even has a term for(blowback) is pure deception.

Quote:

I don't need some pastor telling me what I should know or feel- especially when the jackass has NO evidence whatsoever showing what he claims.




If you believe that true faith in God requires a commitment to social justice,peace and universal respect and compassion, why should you keep silent about issues that affect these principles directly? Should faith have to be an abstract concept that doesn't have any impact on how you live your life or how you approach society and government?

Now, I'm an atheist and I don't really see religion as the proper lense to view secular matters through, but I'd rather have a pastor rail against social inequality, even if some of his beliefs are misguided or poorly reasoned, than hear a pastor spout real hatred as with Hagee or Parsley.

Ps: the great retort was aimed at d33p, not johnm214. I didn't see your post when I replied.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8468874 - 05/31/08 11:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What? What does this have to do with communism?




I was using this definition:
2: emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity
Merriam Webster

Perhaps it wasn't the best word, I wasn't aware it was so associated w/ socialism. I was saying that you shouldn't assign the reactions to the church to some prejudiced view of the inner city or black folk.



As for the rest of your comments:
1. Hagee is nothing similar to Obama's pastor. Some guy endorsed McCain. This is different than the connection Obama has with Hagee, so a comparison of the treatment seems silly.

2. Who cares if I've been to a black church? No one cares about the cadence or whatnot, they care about the stupid claims and insane and silly political connections he makes in his speech.

3. The historical basis for wrights claims are poor. They don't show anything he claimed. He carries the burden of proving his statments, he's not carried that burden, and they're probably false.

4. I'm aware of the origins of the chickens have come home to roost. So what?

5. I don't really care about the social commentary, I think its improper though for what I'd care if I was in church. And I've never heard that kinda crap from either black or white baptist/catholic churches. But the whole "scandal" is worthless anyways.

I think its clear that Obama was never that religious and associated w/ a large church that could aid his career. He then got bit in the ass, maybe, when that church had leaders that turned out to be insane.

I doubt he ever really cared about the church or whatever beyond the political aid for him, and that's why I don't care about the wright controversy anyways.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8469029 - 06/01/08 12:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
Yes, it does. That's the entire story right there. If you've never been to a black church, Wright looks crazy. If you have, he doesn't.




Ah, so all black churches are crazy so this is nothing?

A- for effort
F for content

Your blatent racism was a nice touch.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: d33p]
    #8469048 - 06/01/08 12:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
Yes, it does. That's the entire story right there. If you've never been to a black church, Wright looks crazy. If you have, he doesn't.




Ah, so all black churches are crazy so this is nothing?

A- for effort
F for content

Your blatent racism was a nice touch.




First off, it's spelled "blatant". And that's not at all what I said. Trinity only seems crazy if you know nothing about black religious culture, not because all black religious culture is crazy but because the impression that it's crazy comes from ignorance.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8469174 - 06/01/08 01:07 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've been to a black church several times. I never heard the pastor talk about anything other than jesus, the lord, and other stuff. Exactly the same as the catholic and white baptist churches I've gone to.

Never have I heard that black church mention politics.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: johnm214]
    #8470053 - 06/01/08 07:45 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, hmmm. Did his theology change causing this break? Highly doubt it.

Being a member for 20 years and he didn't know what they taught? If this is true it shows he doesn't do his homework on one of the most important things and he is a sloth.

He probably agrees with what they teach and if people knew what he believed they would run away from him and he knows it, so he dumped them. A man of no convictions.

Was he a member just to appear as a black with roots in the black community? Could be, then he would be a poser and a liar.

Was this an political move? If so then it shows he has no intelligence on politics since it will be widely seen for what it is, typical move by a squirrely politician.

Any way you look at it it shows multiple character flaws.


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: fivepointer]
    #8470185 - 06/01/08 09:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


As for the rest of your comments:
1. Hagee is nothing similar to Obama's pastor. Some guy endorsed McCain. This is different than the connection Obama has with Hagee, so a comparison of the treatment seems silly.




You're right: there are important differences between the two. Hagee is a hateful bigot while Wright isn't. Wright's relationship to Obama is personal and spiritual while Hagee and McCain made a political pact. One is pure tabloid smear while the other raises serious questions about what kind of leader he'd be if he's willing to pander and jump in bed with psychotic hatemongers who believe Jesus wants them to convince the President to bomb Iran and start World War III and kill a fifth of the world's population. By any metric, Obama has the least shady personal associations of all the candidates and yet he's being hammered by the media because an animated black man plays to people's fears and preconcieved notions better than a sedate white guy.

Quote:


2. Who cares if I've been to a black church? No one cares about the cadence or whatnot, they care about the stupid claims and insane and silly political connections he makes in his speech.




If you don't think that's where 90% of the appeal of the story lies, you clearly haven't studied communication or the media much.

Quote:


3. The historical basis for wrights claims are poor. They don't show anything he claimed. He carries the burden of proving his statments, he's not carried that burden, and they're probably false.




He's a pastor, not a historian. I agree that a lot of what he says is wrong, but it's not as though Obama's going to appoint him to his cabinet or anything.

Quote:


I think its clear that Obama was never that religious and associated w/ a large church that could aid his career. He then got bit in the ass, maybe, when that church had leaders that turned out to be insane.

I doubt he ever really cared about the church or whatever beyond the political aid for him, and that's why I don't care about the wright controversy anyways.




In his autobiography, he speaks convincingly and emphatically about his religious conversion and beliefs, so I don't see any reason to question his sincerity any more than I'd question the sincerity of say McCain or Hillary's beliefs. I think this has been painful for him, but it's clear that with him in the spotlight, the Republicans are gonna use Trinity as a punching bag and that's not fair to either the campaign or the church.

Quote:

Ok, hmmm. Did his theology change causing this break? Highly doubt it.

Being a member for 20 years and he didn't know what they taught? If this is true it shows he doesn't do his homework on one of the most important things and he is a sloth.




This is incoherent. Of course he knew the basic theology professed at Trinity, and there's nothing wrong with it. The problem is that the media has shown itself to be hellbent on making his religion a political issue, which damages both him and the church. If he stayed in the church, you would have used that against him and now that he's quit, you're using that against him. Obviously, you're just using this as a way to confirm your pre-existing hatred of Obama, so there's not much point talking with you.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8470207 - 06/01/08 10:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:


Quote:

Ok, hmmm. Did his theology change causing this break? Highly doubt it.

Being a member for 20 years and he didn't know what they taught? If this is true it shows he doesn't do his homework on one of the most important things and he is a sloth.




This is incoherent. Of course he knew the basic theology professed at Trinity, and there's nothing wrong with it. The problem is that the media has shown itself to be hellbent on making his religion a political issue, which damages both him and the church. If he stayed in the church, you would have used that against him and now that he's quit, you're using that against him. Obviously, you're just using this as a way to confirm your pre-existing hatred of Obama, so there's not much point talking with you.



Why should what the media thinks or says alter his relationship with a church he has been with? If he was a man of conviction he should stand up for what his church is teaching. So either he is not a man of conviction, or he is a coward for not standing up to the media. More like his theology is so aberrant that he is trying to run away from it, which isn't going to work since we all can see what they teach. His moves are only drawing more attention to it. So once again he shows himself to be politically inept and unable to discern basic political calculus. Again the man has character issues.


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: fivepointer]
    #8470275 - 06/01/08 10:54 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Bullshit.

Quote:


Why should what the media thinks or says alter his relationship with a church he has been with? If he was a man of conviction he should stand up for what his church is teaching.




He's a politician running for political office. The election should be about the issues and about his willingness to lead, not about stupid tabloid-quality racebaiting. He has never disavowed the church; he is resigning from it because his presence there is bringing negative attention to both parties. He has disavowed Wright(who has already retired), which I disagree with, but his reasoning is his own. This election should be about the issues, about repairing the damage done in the last 8 years, not about "look at those crazy negroes!".

Quote:

More like his theology is so aberrant that he is trying to run away from it, which isn't going to work since we all can see what they teach.




So he's running away from his church's theology? What evidence do you have of that? And what exactly is so "aberrant" about his church's teachings?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: johnm214]
    #8470304 - 06/01/08 11:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> So either he is not a man of conviction, or he is a coward for not standing up to the media.

Or his church has changed the message preached now that it is in the spotlight. The sad part is that everybody is upset at Obama rather than asking two very important questions:

1) is this isolated, or is this church expressing what most blacks feel?
2) how broken is our country when a large segment of our culture feels this way?

Obama has become the scapegoat for an ugly reality that most americans do not wish to face. America has come a long way with respect to race issues, but there is still a long way to go... and the black culture can be just as guilty as the white culture when it comes to idiotic racism.

> I never heard the pastor talk about anything other than jesus, the lord, and other stuff.

My mother used to drag me to Catholic church before I grew big enough to resist and I remember them talking about politics quite often... don't vote for the people that allow abortion; don't vote for people that push birth control; don't vote for people that don't agree with Catholic dogma; etc...


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8470334 - 06/01/08 11:14 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
Bullshit.

Quote:


Why should what the media thinks or says alter his relationship with a church he has been with? If he was a man of conviction he should stand up for what his church is teaching.




He's a politician running for political office. The election should be about the issues and about his willingness to lead, not about stupid tabloid-quality racebaiting. He has never disavowed the church; he is resigning from it because his presence there is bringing negative attention to both parties. He has disavowed Wright(who has already retired), which I disagree with, but his reasoning is his own. This election should be about the issues, about repairing the damage done in the last 8 years, not about "look at those crazy negroes!".

Quote:

More like his theology is so aberrant that he is trying to run away from it, which isn't going to work since we all can see what they teach.




So he's running away from his church's theology? What evidence do you have of that? And what exactly is so "aberrant" about his church's teachings?



What evidence, well he quit the church that holds to that theology. If he still agrees with the theology he should not have quit. Do you really want me to start on about theology? That could be quite a long thread.

His church is a pseudo Christian church that has respect of persons based on race and takes political positions, so yes it is an integral part of valid political discussion.

The only ones race baiting are those who hold to the theology of that church.


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama throws his church under the bus [Re: fivepointer]
    #8470474 - 06/01/08 11:58 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What evidence, well he quit the church that holds to that theology. If he still agrees with the theology he should not have quit.




That is unbelievably stupid. You're assuming that the only reason he could've had to quit was disagreement with their theology, which is absolutely false and has been explicitly denied by Obama. This is why he quit:

Quote:

Well, you know, after the National Press Club episode, as I said, I had a long conversation with Michelle and also had a long conversation with Reverend Moss. We prayed on it and you know, my interest has never been to try to politicize this or put the church in a position where is subject to the same rigors and demands of a presidential campaign. My suspicion at that time, and Michelle, I think, shared this concern, was that it was going to be very difficult to continue our membership there so long as I was running for president. The recent episode with Father Pfleger I think just reinforced that view that we don't want to have to answer for everything that's stated in a church. On the other hand, we also don't want a church subjected to the scrutiny that a presidential campaign legitimately undergoes. I mean, that's... I don't want Reverend Moss to have to look over his shoulder and see that his sermon vets or if it's potentially problematic for my campaign or will attract the fury of a cable program. And so, I have no idea how it will impact my presidential campaign. But I know it's the right thing to do for the church and for our family.




Quote:

The only ones race baiting are those who hold to the theology of that church.




Yeah, they're a bunch of racists, just like the NAACP. I mean, look what it stands for: the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Clearly, they're racist because they only want to advance colored people. Where's the National Association for the Advancement of White People, am I rite?


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