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 backfromthedead
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How does one determine a genuine shaman ahead of time?
His drugs??
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 OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
 
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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I guess according to Hongito, if you do a sweat lodge and do not overheat then you are in the presence of an authentic medicine man.
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backfromthedead
Activated
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I built a sweat lodge when I was like 13 with pallets and burlap sacks.
Nobody got heat stroke... I am a Salmon. I mean Shaman.
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TheHappieHippies
Uber-Goober
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My best friend went to a Sioux sweat, and she said it was the single most amazing spiritual event she's ever experienced. "beyond words" is all she can tell me, and much like myself she is usually quite verbose.
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Tantradvaita
Stranger
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Spiritual steam? Are you supposed to sweat out all the bodys toxins or something?
Anytime ive ever been in a steam room or sauna i feel like im slowly drowning, like im breathing in water.
Im gonna go drink some air...
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"Don't keep searching for truth, simply let go of your beliefs" Buddha
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TheHappieHippies
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 Re: Native American Sweat Lodges  [Re: Tantradvaita]
#8462836 - 05/30/08 07:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think comparing a traditional sweat to a sauna or a steam room might be an inaccurate analogy. A bit like comparing cheesecake to a hunk of cheese.
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Edited by TheHappieHippies (05/30/08 07:21 AM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
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Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Technically, transfats are created from plant sources (with the minor exceptions of natural transfats, a complete different thing), meaning they are not "in" them as I said. Within the context of Mickey D's, they are "in" them in the case of French Fries, but not in the burger. If we were talking about Kentucky Fried Chicken, the transfat would be in the chicken, not in the coleslaw (as far as I know). Nice catch.
It's possible for an initiate to get heat stroke if they don't follow the advice of the shaman before going in. The leader of the Inipi, if they are leading whites or others unfamiliar with sweats, should, if they don't have their head up their ***, explain that they are allowed to leave if it gets too hot for them. It's just common sense. You know, "rational thinking."
How do you tell an authentic shaman?
There are a lot of ways, but I'll tell my story and let you decide. I was approached by a friend to "do a sweat." However, it just didn't "feel right." Later, my friends who did attend told me how wonderful it was--all kinds of magic, goosebumps and the hebbie-gebbies.
A week later, another friend heard of another sweat and asked me if I wanted to go. That one "felt right" and I went.
As I got to know the Natives in the area I learned that the first guy, Mario, although full-blooded, was a con artist that charged naive wasicus (whites) money for his "magic show." The second guy, Reuben, didn't charge and was respected in the community--authentic.
It turned out that when Mario was "put on the hill" to get his "name," he cursed the pipe and was nothing but a scam artist.
So I used intuition as my guide and it worked.
I think, we as rational beings, or analytic-type men, overlook the value of intuitive thinking and processing data. It's "our way." I think if we were to analyze intuitive thinking we might conclude that it somehow "knows" in a different way.
Sweats? Visions?
Yeah, I guess if you subject your body to intense heat, you might see things.
It's like "going on the hill" where you go 4 days without food, water or sleep to "get your name" and your vision quest. People have visions during that? Oh yeah. Are they magical? Hard to say.
To bring it back to your ex-roommate, if he was a complete moron looking for some kind of spiritual high or had a shaman who was trying to take the white kid for a ride he very likely could have been hurt.
I also think it's slightly arrogant to assume the empirical method has all the answers. There are other methods of investigation available. Philosophy is one.
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TheHappieHippies
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#8462975 - 05/30/08 09:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not going to the sweat to try and "see" things. There are wounds that I am having trouble healing by modern means. Not psychiatric problems particularly, though they have been addressed by psychiatric means in the past, and that experience only served to deepen the wounds, adding insult to injury; there is something wrong with mySELF because bad things happened to me in my childhood? I am hoping that when I attend a sweat, I will move closer to healing these wounds.
The concept makes sense to me. My friend who went, attended a less intense one meant for those who have never been, or who just wish to sweat out toxins every now and then. Many Natives go to traditional sweats, this fact alone leads me to believe there is truth to the concept.
No doubt there are bad seeds in every type of human in existence, and there are surely some like Mario (his name alone would have made me suspicious) who will use whatever they can as a tool for money. Thank you for giving me that info, I will surely check the place out before I do anything stupid.
I know there is a safe word at the lodge I am hoping to attend, and I am pretty good at listening to my body for signs of distress, so I am not overly concerned about heat stroke.
My intention is writing this thread was to find out more about the experience itself, not the risks and benefits so much, that stuff seems common sense.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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I've not attended one but it would seem to me that it would be like any similar experience. You'll get out of it what you put into it. If you go in with an attitude of contemplation and a desire to heal you'll get more of an effect from it than if you go in thinking it's stupid.
I had a friend who did them a few times. He did it more for sweating out impurities than anything else.
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Epigallo
Stranger
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: mushbaby]
#8468393 - 05/31/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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where does the spiritual feeling come from anyway?
does something happen to your brain when it gets hot?
or is it transcending the suffering of the heat?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: mushbaby]
#8468447 - 05/31/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
He did it more for sweating out impurities than anything else.
Yet another popular and erroneous myth. Sweat, whether from exertion or from high external heat, is mostly water with a little salt and a few trace minerals.
The idea of purification and ridding of toxins has no foundation.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Loc: On the Border
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8471122 - 06/01/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I understand the ridding of metabolic by-products through the skin. The toxins spoken of are generally referring to something else entirely such as build up of pesticides or mercury.
However, I will make my usual wager:
A person who takes a sauna or sweat will be indistinguishable from one who doesn't once the core body temperature is back to normal and equal hydration levels are achieved.
The bottom line: Sweat does contain trace amounts of toxins, says Dr. Dee Anna Glaser, a professor of dermatology at St. Louis University and founding member of the International Hyperhidrosis Society, a medical group dedicated to the study and treatment of heavy sweating.
But, Glaser, adds, in the big picture, sweat has only one function: Cooling you down when you overheat. "Sweating for the sake of sweating has no benefits," she says. "Sweating heavily is not going to release a lot of toxins."
In fact, Glaser says, heavy sweating can impair your body's natural detoxification system. As she explains, the liver and kidneys -- not the sweat glands -- are the organs we count on to filter toxins from our blood. If you don't drink enough water to compensate for a good sweat, dehydration could stress the kidneys and keep them from doing their job. "If you're not careful, heavy sweating can be a bad thing," she says.
Sweating definitely won't help clear the body of mercury or other metals, says Donald Smith, a professor of environmental toxicology at UC Santa Cruz, who studies treatments for metal poisoning. Almost all toxic metals in the body are excreted through urine or feces, he says. And less than 1% are lost through sweat. In other words, you'll do far more detoxifying in the bathroom than you ever could in a sauna.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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The only difference between urine and sweat is ammonia content. Fact.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8471160 - 06/01/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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That being said sweating purifies as much as any other metabolic process. If you poison yourself it will take more than a little sweating, pissing, or shitting to be rid of it. Like the "body cleanse" idea it's usefulness is limited, but there is some value. That does not negate the fact that extreme physical conditions can serve as catalysts for spiritual type experiences. Fasting, sleep deprivation, physical stress, and isolation, as well as drugs have all been used this way.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Pandurn
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Quote:
TheHappieHippies said:
I know there is a safe word at the lodge I am hoping to attend, and I am pretty good at listening to my body for signs of distress, so I am not overly concerned about heat stroke.
If they have a safe word, then it is a scam. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8471973 - 06/01/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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In other words, despite two more posts, you will not accept my wager.
Um.... OK.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: fireworks_god]
#8471983 - 06/01/08 06:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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The safe word for the month is 'Rumpletstiltskin'.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Quote:
I understand the ridding of metabolic by-products through the skin.
Your usual backpedaling when shown to be wrong.
Quote:
However, I will make my usual wager:
A person who takes a sauna or sweat will be indistinguishable from one who doesn't once the core body temperature is back to normal and equal hydration levels are achieved.
You didn't make a wager...you just made a statement. Learning the english language might be useful to you as well as learning a little science.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Native American Sweat Lodges [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8472278 - 06/01/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Your usual backpedaling when shown to be wrong.
I actually posted an article by a PhD to back up my position not exactly 'backpeddling'.
Quote:
You didn't make a wager...you just made a statement.
(from www. dictionary.com)
wager: 3. the subject or terms of a bet.
I deliberately left the amount open as I will wager however much you can afford to lose.
To be more explicit, any difference between a sauna-taker (or sweat lodge-taker) and non-sauna taker must be determined by toxicity markers alone.
I will now enjoy some real back-peddling. 
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