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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #852438 - 08/30/02 04:25 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

> Time isn't experienced as a spatial dimension (because of our limited senses)
> That's because it's impossible to visualize higher spatial dimensions, our brains > just aren't wired for it

infidel, how did you come to this conclusion? Do you have better senses then the rest of us? A better wired brain?

Or are you asking me to take it on faith?

"Just believe it, I can't prove it, I can't show it to you, you can't experience it, but believe me, everyone who is smart believes it, so time really is a fourth dimension"

Replace Time with God and you sound alot like a Christian apologist.

It's time to take out Occam's Razor!


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (08/30/02 04:30 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #852491 - 08/30/02 05:41 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

"Just believe it, I can't prove it, I can't show it to you, you can't experience it, but believe me, everyone who is smart believes it, so time really is a fourth dimension"

Replace Time with God and you sound alot like a Christian apologist.


That statement can be applied to YOUR theory of time as well.

observe -

Time is not "a dimension". It neither behaves like one nor can be defined as one

pattern, how did you come to this conclusion? Do you have better senses then the rest of us? A better wired brain?

I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'm only sharing MY beliefs, just like you're sharing yours. I believe my theory on a little bit of faith and a lot of verifiable science. It's certainly a lot more scientific than your "Time is a fuel" theory. I love the way you worked in DMT and elves in there too.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #852539 - 08/30/02 06:23 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

My theories are out there, but they are grounded in solid scientific principles.
If you want to educate yourself, here are some sources:

about relativity:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/relativity/index.html

about spacetime:
http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/courses/A07/studentsites/studentsites2001/WAG/Spacetime.html

proof that time travel actually happened!! well, sort of...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/hotsciencetwin/test.html

and since I'm feeling generous I'll even include an article that disputes the spacetime model:
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/louis.savain/Crackpots/notorious.htm


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #852942 - 08/30/02 10:38 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

>> Time is not "a dimension" It neither behaves like one
>pattern, how did you come to this conclusion?

I experience reality. This reality doesn't include time travel, god, and other such fantasies. Perhaps I am missing out...

In any case, I explain, in later sentences, why I said 'time is not a dimension'.

>Do you have better senses then the rest of us? A better wired brain?

No. However, you claim human (ex mine and yours) senses can't experience the fourth dimension properly. I was wondering how you knew that, if your senses can't experience the fourth dimension properly.

>I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'm only sharing MY beliefs, just like you're sharing yours.

Fair enough. Although these aren't my beliefs, but thoughts. I think of many things, which I sometimes share, but that doesn't mean I believe them. Thinking is an error-prone process: the best thoughts must be selected for belief.

But I am slowly convincing myself that I am right. lol!

> I believe my theory on a little bit of faith and a lot of verifiable science. It's certainly a lot more scientific than your "Time is a fuel" theory.

No one has scientifically verified that copies of all matter are being being stored in a fourth dimension. No one has verified that we can time travel. etc. This theory is only "scientific" insofar as many scientists believe it. That is not good enough to be valued as truth.

>I love the way you worked in DMT and elves in there too.

Thanks I like to debate. Sometimes I add a flame or two. I just wanted to really give this 4th dimension theory a good bash on the head, and you showed up to support it. hehe


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #853379 - 08/30/02 03:08 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I experience reality. This reality doesn't include time travel, god, and other such fantasies. Perhaps I am missing out...

Actually, you experience time travel on a daily basis, every time you move, you are slowing time for yourself (by an immeasurable amount, but still..). But I think what you mean by time travel is a temporal loop, where you skip time forwards or backwards (creating all kinds of unpleasent paradoxes). Well, this is also theoretically possible.

Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Consider black holes, neutron stars, dark matter, the big bang. All these things existed in theory first. Experimental data proved their existence after their existence was predicted by theory.

However, you claim human (ex mine and yours) senses can't experience the fourth dimension properly. I was wondering how you knew that, if your senses can't experience the fourth dimension properly.

Well I know that I can't perceive 4 spatial dimensions. Can you? It is simply impossible - check out the hypercube. This is why the concept of time is so great - because we don't have to visualize the 4th dimension as another physical axis (in addition to x,y,z). Our brains process the 4th dimension as a temporal axis (t) through which the 3 spatial dimensions move. But understand that time is seperate from space, not because they are two seperate entities, but because we can't perceive them as one (4 dimensional spacetime).

btw, I don't have to actually see the fourth dimension to say that we, as a species, are not seeing it properly. We are seeing the universe just as we were meant to see it. Our brains evolved to flee from predators and hunt prey, not to visualize higher dimensions - although that may be in our future...

But I am slowly convincing myself that I am right. lol!

Me too !! It's funny how that works.

No one has scientifically verified that copies of all matter are being being stored in a fourth dimension.

No not copies. That's like saying that a cylinder (3d) contains many copies of circles (2d). The 4th dimension contains the true shape of an object. We are only privy to a 3d "slice" of the 4d object at one "moment".

No one has verified that we can time travel. etc. This theory is only "scientific" insofar as many scientists believe it. That is not good enough to be valued as truth

Didn't you see the 3rd link above? Wouldn't you say that the plane and everyone aboard that went around the world "travelled" into the future by a billionth of a second? And didn't the Earth travel a billionth of a second into the past (as seen by the plane)? Of course, neither "experiences" time travel - it's all relative.

I think the time travel you are looking for is the science fiction, temporal loop kind where you get into a "time machine" and travel into the past to meet your younger self or something of the sort. The paradoxes created by such a form of time travel will neccesitate the existence of parallel universes. This is also theoretically possible within the spacetime model because as a spatial dimension, time is not linear. Also a 4 dimensional universe can contain an infinite number of 3 dimensional "moments" - including those that belong to alternate timelines.


Well this is getting all too complicated for me...

We are time flowing through space: souls flowing through bodies.

Time is a multidimensional fuel. It is one "big" dimension, and many "smaller" ones. I suspect that the "curled-up" dimensions of string theory are actually subdimensions of time


Your words closely match what I've been saying. Time can't really be quantified so maybe I shoulda taken the poetic approach



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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 286
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: What is Time? [Re: Revelation]
    #853437 - 08/30/02 03:42 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I felt that revelation, your energy, it was like a flash. i am so sick of that fluffy cloud spiritual garbage, hey i'm not saying its not true but i am not percieving any of it. last night i went for a walk at about 3:00 in the morning,thewalk was not peaceful a tall but it was still spiritual. all of a sudden i was overcome with a sense of a high energy, follwing my life seemed to become very clear, not its purpose but i saw myself andeverything around me very clearly. Itseemed like physicality is mimicking something like we are machines or something. mindseemed very obvious andsimplistic andi felt close to full enlightenment, very phsycadelic. even thestreetsigns seemed to be trying to tell me something, i saw relativity very clearly,i dont know but it was fucked.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #853540 - 08/30/02 05:06 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

>you experience time travel on a daily basis

Maybe you do, but I don't! It's a paradox. Perhaps we live in "parallel universes".

>Wouldn't you say that the plane and everyone aboard that went around the world "travelled" into the future by a billionth of a second? And didn't the Earth travel a billionth of a second into the past (as seen by the plane)?

I would say that the plane "got more time" and so was able to change its spatial configuration relatively faster. As in, one gave the plane more fuel and it flew farther. The Earth didnt travel into the past.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #854123 - 08/30/02 11:35 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

"In my Astrology class at U.C. Berkeley...."

I fervently hope you meant your Astronomy class.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #854131 - 08/30/02 11:42 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

There is a reason that you think this is important and I am interested in that just as much as I am the subject material.

You seem to think that empirical science has the best answers. Philosophy does have something to say on this subject as well.

I have seen some many people bring up subjects like Quantum Mechanics as a reason to hold onto some weird ontological idea or whatever.

I don't have the time to stay around for this but I sure wish I did. Questions about time are NOT exclusively the domain of empirical science whatever else you may think. Those questions are a perfect example where philosophy and science should work together for a better answer. Without philosophy science is blind.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #854133 - 08/30/02 11:44 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

I really enjoyed your initial post in this thread. That is not to say I agree with it though. I am reserving judgment until more evidence is in.

Good stuff Pattern!

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: What is Time? [Re: ]
    #854167 - 08/31/02 12:51 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Well, I think this is important because many here seem to believe that time is some sort of spiritual, mystical unfolding of the universe...  they may be right, but someones gotta tell them that there already exists a working model of space and time that doesn't rely on leaps of faith.

You seem to think that empirical science has the best answers. Philosophy does have something to say on this subject as well.

Science doesn't always have the best answers but sometimes it offers the only answers that make sense. In this case, philosophy can't offer a model of time without invoking mysterious forces at work. I think science has it right in this case. The spacetime model fits in with relativity, as well as experimental data, but it is by no means a complete theory. That's where philosophy comes in. I agree that science and philosophy need to work together for a more complete understanding, but science precedes philosophy when it comes to the physical nature of the universe.

I've read many philosophical definitions of time. I've had many philosophical debates about the nature of time and space. Yes, philosophy does have a lot to say about time and it all sounds so beautiful and spiritual and all that, but we can't build a particle accelerator to test a philosophy (if only we could  :frown: ).


Anyway, it doesn't really matter because the next revolution in physics will shatter any current theories about the universe...
Maybe that is the point - not to see a static "truth", but to constantly see things in a new light.  This is one concept that is shared by both science and philosophy.

 


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 3 years, 27 days
Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #854244 - 08/31/02 01:44 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

perhaps time is just a product of change. If everything ceased to change, say hypotheticaly everything cooled to absolute zero and expansion stopped, would time still exist? How would you know or prove it?


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #854391 - 08/31/02 05:58 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

I think there is two different kinds of time... there is the time on our watches and the time in our head. The time on our watches is just a label slapped on something impossible to label. The time in our head is kind of a mixture of our rate of thought processing and concentration. If time flys by when you're having fun this must be because you're concentrating only on whatever it is you're doing. When you're sitting back doing nothing at all but thinking time goes by a lot slower. This is why when we're on shrooms it can seem like eternity, because our thoughts are processing so quickly and our concentration is spread into a million pieces. This is also why it can be easy for someone on shrooms to lose interest in things they were just doing..and if we were all only able to concentrate on one small tiny thing then would we have to change our time label we have? Because we'd look up at the clock after what seemed like only a minute and realize the hour hand is on the other side of the clock, this would be very frustrating and slcorch would be rethinking his take on how we label time.


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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 8,783
Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #854412 - 08/31/02 06:31 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

A part of infinity is in itself, infinte?
-yes

Time is infinite?
-yes

So our lives are infinitly long in time?


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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 8,783
Re: What is Time? [Re: ]
    #854415 - 08/31/02 06:33 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

You just explained my exact thoughts on time in the human mind.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 25,267
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Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: What is Time? [Re: ]
    #854524 - 08/31/02 08:35 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Heh, yes, Astronomy.



Thank you for that correction  :tongue:





--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 17 days
Re: What is Time? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #854561 - 08/31/02 09:09 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Time is infinate- therefore there is no such thing as time. It's all one moment- like a blank clock without anything on it but hands, it doesn't have a time.

I really hate that 'In the beginning, God created...' shit, because it was all based on days. How could God know how long a day was before he created earth? When were all the stars created and why do we see light coming from galaxies that are billions of years old (light coming from them). It just sounds like everything rotates around the earth but it doesn't. I guess I'm getting a little off topic here.

I believe that there are different kinds of time, like you guys above said. It relates to dimensions- Mental dimensions and physical dimensions effect each other with gravity. The moon effects our brains- gravity. The sun effects our brains- but we are in a consistant orbit with it so there is no way for us to know what it's like far a way from it unless you were to travel far into space.  :tongue:

The megaverse is infinate and eternal- we are also infinate and eternal- we are just seperate parts of the same thing. Time is in the eye of the beholder.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #854586 - 08/31/02 09:24 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Well, I think this is important because many here seem to believe that time is some sort of spiritual, mystical unfolding of the universe... they may be right, but someones gotta tell them that there already exists a working model of space and time that doesn't rely on leaps of faith.

Yes, I totally agree.  I agree with the rest of your post as well.  I particularly like this:

Maybe that is the point - not to see a static "truth", but to constantly see things in a new light. This is one concept that is shared by both science and philosophy.

Hence the difference between episteme and doxa.  Episteme is Truth for all time and we have little of that.  Doxa is truth that changes with the addition of new data.  Scientific truth is of the second variety.

I wish I had more time to discuss this. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #854743 - 08/31/02 11:47 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

thank you guys for your great replies = fuel for thought!!!

Let me close this thread with a little poem i wrote just now:


i live in the now
the past i can only dwell on
i cant live in the future because its too depressing
i cant live in the past because its too boring
but the now is now
know what i mean? :smile:

i like time
if it werent for time
i wouldnt be here
so
i'd like to thank time
and space
for everything

THANKS ALL FOR COMIN OUT


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 25,267
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #855081 - 08/31/02 03:15 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

=Time is not a force or energy. But forces (such as gravity or acceleration) can act on it just like it acts on physical space.=


Yah, I never said Time was a force or energy. I said it was an essence just like forces or energy or waves or such.



So if gravity has a similar effect on time as it does on energy, what does it tell us about energy?

If you take it back any further, we would just be questioning the point of existence itself.



--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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