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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #848611 - 08/28/02 08:41 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed. Time is but our projected perception of marking our alleged linear progression through existence.


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #848633 - 08/28/02 08:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Time is our perception of relative motion. Most of our measurements of time are based on the motions of the earth and celestial bodies but our perceptions of 'time spans' vary from individual to individual and vary within an individual's mind, influenced by circumstances affecting these perception.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #848646 - 08/28/02 08:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It does not follow that our existence is not successive because of such anchoring.

You are saying that events happen one after the other. I disagree with that.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: What is Time? [Re: Revelation]
    #848820 - 08/28/02 10:41 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You are saying that events happen one after the other. I disagree with that.

So... you posted this at the same moment I posted the reply to which you answered (at the same time?) with the reply containing the bolded text (first line of this post); and now this post I am currently (present tense) typing happened at the exact same moment as these aforementioned posts?
(have fun with that)

I don't think so.
Unless you're some sort of an all-knowing god, you can't make such statements without proof. BTW, who is that physicist from Britain who's constructed a theory about this? (it made the cover of Discovery magazine a while back)


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #848846 - 08/28/02 10:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

One line contains infinite points, but its all the same LINE.. The same with planes, and space. Or so I learned in geometry. Maybe time isnt so much different... I'm just talking out of my ass, though.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: What is Time? [Re: ]
    #848891 - 08/28/02 11:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Just because a line contains points, it doesn't mean that the line is an illusion.


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: ]
    #849207 - 08/28/02 01:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Time is our perception of relative motion. Most of our measurements of time are based on the motions of the earth and celestial bodies but our perceptions of 'time spans' vary from individual to individual and vary within an individual's mind, influenced by circumstances affecting these perception.

Nice to see someone has the right answer.

Cheers,


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Invisibletak_old
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Re: What is Time? [Re: ]
    #849636 - 08/28/02 06:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"I exist in a world void of time. I have no fingers to tap, no lifespan to measure, no counting of breaths. This world I have no physical body, I am the past, present, and future. Eternity is only a second wich I forgot to believe. I exist with peace, flying over an oceans sunset, void of thought, full of warmth. I am part of a whole, in wich there is no competition, worries, or death. I am like a rock, sitting quietly on top of a mountain, looking at my children, staring at the answer."


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Anonymous

Re: What is Time? [Re: tak_old]
    #849763 - 08/28/02 07:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Poetic truth and Descriptive truth are not the same thing.

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #850102 - 08/28/02 09:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Time, unlike space, is only accessible in one direction, meaning we have only moved forward and not backwards, and have no current means of backwards time travel. Time, at least as I know it, does not behave like a dimension of space. Space and time are two different concepts. I believe in analyzing time differently than analyzing a spatial dimension.

Actually, time can be best described as a fourth "spatial" dimension. Space and time and not two different concepts.

Imagine that we are 2 dimentional beings living in a 2 dimensional universe. Time would be the 3rd spatial dimension that exists above and below the 2 dimensional plane. However the 2 dimensional beings are not aware of the 3rd dimension. They don't see it as a spatial dimension because their senses are only tuned to the 2 dimensional plane. They only experience change - as the plane moves through the 3rd dimension, they see the 2 dimensional outlines of the intersecting 3 dimensional objects and they appear to move in predictable ways.

Movement = time; but movement is an illusion. When we see celestial bodies move, they behave predictably because they have fixed shapes in time (the 4th dimension). But the objects don't really move, they have a fixed shape and position in the 4th dimension.

Think of a spring (3d, of course) and imagine that a 2 dimensional plane is crossing it from end to end. The 2 dimensional outline you would see is a circle orbiting around an unseen center. It follows a predictable path because it has a geometric shape. But of course the moving 2d circle is actually a fixed 3d spring. And the 3 dimensional objects that we see moving are actually 3 dimensional "cross sections" of fixed 4 dimensional objects.

This isn't necessarily the real physical nature of our universe but it helps in looking at time differently. It's not a mysterious phenomena, it's just a spatial dimension that we can't visualize. Spacetime is a single entity. Both space and time can be warped with high speed or strong gravitational fields, meaning that a force can act on both time and space, meaning that they have the same essence.



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OfflineTrOmAn
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Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #850197 - 08/28/02 10:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

time is only measured by humans...space is so vast we can only measure time by events, so time is a human creation


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Offlinepattern
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Re: What is Time? [Re: TrOmAn]
    #850367 - 08/29/02 04:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> Actually, time can be best described as a fourth "spatial" dimension. Space and time and not two different concepts.

I used to believe that.

> This isn't necessarily the real physical nature of our universe but it helps in looking at time differently.

If it isn't the "real physical nature" then why believe it?

If time is really a 4th spatial dimension (that we just can't navigate for magical reasons), then the absurd truth is that there are massive complete reproductions of our universe at each point in time. Do you really believe that???

Now tell me, how are all of these states being stored? Are they just sitting there, happily waiting for us to magically "time travel" back and forth? How convenient.


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Edited by pattern (08/29/02 04:34 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: What is Time? [Re: pattern]
    #851764 - 08/29/02 07:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If it isn't the "real physical nature" then why believe it?

I don't think any of us will ever see the true nature of the universe. I believe what I believe because it aids in understanding.

If time is really a 4th spatial dimension (that we just can't navigate for magical reasons), then the absurd truth is that there are massive complete reproductions of our universe at each point in time. Do you really believe that???

We can navigate the 4th dimension, we are doing it right now. Also, like I said before, you can "time travel" by travelling really fast or by being near a strong gravitational field (such as a black hole, which bends spacetime). This is all spelled out in Einsteins general theory of relativity. Time isn't experienced as a spatial dimension (because of our limited senses), but it behaves like one.

And yes there are "massive complete reproductions of our universe at each point in time", if you want to see it that way. But look at it this way, there are an infinite number of 2d universes in a 3d universe - slices of "time", which appear to create a new 2d universe with each moment. And so our 3 dimensional universe at this very moment is a 3 dimensional "slice" of a 4 dimensional universe. These aren't massive reproductions, there is only one universe, we can only see a slice at a time.
That's because it's impossible to visualize higher spatial dimensions, our brains just aren't wired for it (at least when we're sober )
Here's a 4d cube you can try to figure out..

If we could somehow visualize this 4th dimension directly, time would cease to exist, we would see all events past and future.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #851886 - 08/29/02 08:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This whole notion of 'slices' and 'series of moments' does nothing for me...
Those terms are just ways of dissecting the nature of existence. Time isn't a backbone ribbed with individual moments. Time is an objective tool used to make sense of occurances (or states) not happening right now. When dissecting such tools, we must keep their functions in mind. Otherwise we'll run off on some unnecessary tangent... amok amok amok!

Just because a process can be looked at as a series of states, it doesn't mean that this is an accurate (read: complete) perspective of that process. Nothing can be measured outside of time. If there is a moment, there is a timeframe to go along with it. Don't follow?
Okay, what is the shortest moment?
Into what absolute, fundamental units can a process be broken down into? If it's a fraction of a nanosecond... it's not small enough. If it's ZERO, it's too small. Are you getting my point?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: What is Time? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #851925 - 08/29/02 08:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I forgot to address your 4th dimension thing... hypercubes, really.

Here's my problem with hypercubes and viewing all four dimensions:
It assumes that time is NOT infinite (or that it repeats for X amount of years). For a hypercube to cycle, it must reach the end. If there is no end, how does it work?

Also, to view this reality in such a way would mean that there is an inertial frame of reference. I think that would be contrary to the views of most physicists today.

If anyone here would like to go in depth on this one, I'd be willing to be lectured (corrected?).


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #852062 - 08/29/02 09:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This whole notion of 'slices' and 'series of moments' does nothing for me...

I never said anything about "series of moments". In fact, I was trying to dispel the notion that time is segmented. A "slice" of time doesn't imply that it is a seperate "segment" of time. There are an infinite number of slices, just like there are an infinite number of moments in a given amount of time. It is a smooth transition from moment to moment. That transition is analogous to moving across a physical space. It's not some mysterious process.

Time isn't a backbone ribbed with individual moments. Time is an objective tool used to make sense of occurances (or states) not happening right now

I agree. Time is not a backbone or line strung with individual moments. I never said time is linear, but it is experienced that way. Time is our reference point of perception in a universe that can't be percieved all at once.

Nothing can be measured outside of time

Can you clarify?

Okay, what is the shortest moment?

That's like asking "what's the shortest measurable distance?"
Time or distance can't be measured in that fasion.

If it's a fraction of a nanosecond... it's not small enough. If it's ZERO, it's too small. Are you getting my point?

Yeah, of course there is no fundametal measurement of time. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What we experience as time is real. But time doesn't change the 3 dimensional universe. It's not a force, it's not a process, it's not another universe (or universes). It is the 4th dimension of THIS universe.

A static 3 dimensional universe can either have 3 spatial dimensions with no time or 2 spatial dimensions with time (an infinite number of 2d "slices" or "moments").
These two possibilities merge into one if we see time as a spatial dimension.
We live in a static (changeless) 4 dimensional universe or a 3 dimensional universe with time. They are the same.

There is a solid mathematical foundation for the existence of higher spatial dimensions. Looking at time as a spatial dimension liberates the mind from thinking that time is "special" or mysterious.







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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #852075 - 08/29/02 09:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Strange.



I have a completely different perspective on time than what most of you seem to be thinking of.


In my Astrology class at U.C. Berkeley, we're taught about Einstein's theory of gravity and how time and light can be bent by gravity. In other words, the rate at which time is percieved can vary based on the existence of a strong gravitational force.

Example: You will never see an object enter a black hole. As it passes the Event Horizon, the object will appear to slow down at an exponential rate as it travels closer and closer to the center of the black hole.


So the way i look at it is Time being some sort of flowing, abstract, ubiquitous essence like energy and radioactive waves.


Just a thought.



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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #852091 - 08/29/02 09:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think what Schlorch is trying to say is that there is no set measurements at which time can be percieved.

It is liquid. There is no smallest unit of time and there is no largest unit of time. Whatever we call a "second" a "minute" an "hour" is just how we chose to measure it.



Did i read right?


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: What is Time? [Re: Sclorch]
    #852094 - 08/29/02 09:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Here's my problem with hypercubes and viewing all four dimensions:
It assumes that time is NOT infinite (or that it repeats for X amount of years).


I think you misunderstood my 4 dimensional anology. No we CAN'T see all four dimensions, hence we see 3 dimensions plus time. Put another way, we can't see the static 4 dimensional universe, so we experience an infinite number of 3 dimensional moments.

For a hypercube to cycle, it must reach the end. If there is no end, how does it work?

Also, to view this reality in such a way would mean that there is an inertial frame of reference. I think that would be contrary to the views of most physicists today.


Actually the hypercube doesn't need to cycle. It only cycles so we can see its structure. It would be kinda hard to represent a 4 dimensional cube on a 2 dimensional screen, so they move it so it looks "3d". So it's actually a 2 dimensional "drawing" of a 3 dimensional "drawing" of a 4 dimensional object. It's true nature is impossible to visualize.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: What is Time? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #852122 - 08/29/02 09:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In my Astrology class at U.C. Berkeley, we're taught about Einstein's theory of gravity and how time and light can be bent by gravity. In other words, the rate at which time is percieved can vary based on the existence of a strong gravitational force.

Example: You will never see an object enter a black hole. As it passes the Event Horizon, the object will appear to slow down at an exponential rate as it travels closer and closer to the center of the black hole.


Good point. Time isn't fixed across space. But it is consistent within a frame of reference. For example, if I was closely orbiting a black hole, you would see me moving slower. But from my reference point, the universe will appear to be speeding up. Time would pass at the same rate for me, I wouldn't see my watch ticking slower.

So the way i look at it is Time being some sort of flowing, abstract, ubiquitous essence like energy and radioactive waves.

Time is not a force or energy. But forces (such as gravity or acceleration) can act on it just like it acts on physical space.





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