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Invisiblesleepy
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electrolysis
    #8449940 - 05/27/08 08:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

does electrolysis involve expenditure of electricity, or can you use that electricity to power, say, a lightbulb as well as creating hydrogen gas?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8449976 - 05/27/08 09:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, electrolysis uses electricity in the process.


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450047 - 05/27/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

is there no way to conserve it then? like... run it between the diodes and then out again?

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450199 - 05/27/08 11:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You would be violating the first law of thermodynamics. Once you've put the necessary energy for breaking H20 molecules into H2 and O2, then the only way to get it back would be to make them react again to form H20. Energy is transformed but always conserved.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: electrolysis [Re: deimya]
    #8450280 - 05/27/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> You would be violating the first law of thermodynamics.

... one of the few laws of physics able to withstand both relativity and quantum mechanics.


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: electrolysis [Re: Seuss]
    #8450306 - 05/27/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Interestingly enough, the concept of energy and mass as a global quantity is ambiguous in general relativity. There's several consistent ways of defining them, each more or less useful for certain conditions.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_general_relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress-energy-momentum_pseudotensor
for a more in depth discussion

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: electrolysis [Re: deimya]
    #8450344 - 05/27/08 12:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

True.

Getting back on topic (bad Seuss!), one of the very cool things with electrolysis of water... at very low voltages, the process will endotherm, pulling energy (in the form of heat) from the environment.

For a few weeks in high school, I thought I had found the secret for unlimited energy... everybody that I spoke with locally thought that the experiment was flawed or simply didn't understand what I was doing. Long story short, the professors at MIT know their shit, and one of them clued me into what was happening. Turns out that energy is conserved after all. Oh well...


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: electrolysis [Re: Seuss]
    #8450412 - 05/27/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm easily distracted, my bad :wink:

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450609 - 05/27/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

what about putting a solar panel on top of a car, which will power the electrolysis, and then collect the hydrogen to power the car?

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450612 - 05/27/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

and you could combine it with that braking technology that the hybrids use which would = more hydrogen.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450632 - 05/27/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

> what about putting a solar panel on top of a car, which will power the electrolysis, and then collect the hydrogen to power the car?

Which is more efficient- storing electrical energy in a battery or storing electrical energy in hydrogen? I'm guessing the battery, but I don't know for certain.


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450695 - 05/27/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

the way i see it, you could save energy by connecting the solar cell directly to the diodes in the water converter. when the sun is shining brightly the reaction goes quicker, thats all. and if the hydrogen tank is full, then the solar panel electricty can be redirected to an extra battery.

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450703 - 05/27/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

does anyone who knows about solar panels know if theres enough room on top of a car to supply enough hydrogen for a car to keep going perpetually?

(edit: i guess you would have to know about solar panel wattage output as well as how much hydrogen you can get from that same wattage from components that fit inside a car.)

and uh, even if there isn't, you could have hydrogen stations instead of gas stations that have bigger solar arrays and sell hydrogen...

i don't know why the oil companies aren't happy about this... the idiots could just start up solar panel companies and get rich too

Edited by sleepy (05/27/08 02:08 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450725 - 05/27/08 02:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sleepy said:

i don't know why the oil companies aren't happy about this... the idiots could just start up solar panel companies and get rich too




who says they're not?

All this talk and congresional hearings re: alternate energy probably makes the gas companies very happy. It sort of signals a nation that has accepted the status quo w/ the oil companies and is willing to investigate bullshit, i.e. corn-based ethanol and other socialist proposed programs that would only benifit farmers from those rural states w/ 5 people and still the same amount of senators as California and New York.

If solar power is worthwhile we will see it implemented. The best thing to do is let the free market handle it, without govenrment interference. There as some growing exchange-traded companies that focus on solar power and if they can make if feasible I'm sure we'll see it.

But my understanding is that the amount of sunlight needed to efficiently deploy a solar array is pretty great.

Either way, the raising gas prices will force people to look at alternate technologies, and maybe soemthing that wouldn't be efficient for a large factory would work well for a small family home at low latitudes.

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: johnm214]
    #8450761 - 05/27/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

we are talking about powering a car with hydrogen produced by solar electricity, which i don't think has ever been done or the efficiency studied yet.

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450780 - 05/27/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It would be less efficient than simply using the electricity from the solar cell directly.

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450791 - 05/27/08 02:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ok wikieinsteinia says this: While methods of hydrogen production that do not use fossil fuel would be more sustainable,[7] currently such production is not economically feasible, and diversion of renewable energy (which represents only 2% of energy generated) to the production of hydrogen for transportation applications is inadvisable.[2]



however, thats only mass production. a solar panel on top of a car would generate no CO2, and even if it didn't make hydrogen fast enough for perpetual travel, the car could run on gasoline while the hydrogen tanks refilled.

also
why cant the technology that recharges the cars battery be used to create hydrogen as well?

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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: electrolysis [Re: sleepy]
    #8450829 - 05/27/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

why cant the technology that recharges the cars battery be used to create hydrogen as well?

It can, but it would be inefficient. You lose usable energy every time it changes form, so if you change electric energy to chemical then you lose some. Why not just keep it as electric, and run the car with that? Then you wont lose any usable energy in the transition from electric to chemical.

The only way hydrogen would be usable in a car is if it is produced commercially, not in the traveling car. Producing hydrogen in a traveling car is less efficient than simply using the electricity.

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Offlinetimmeh_87
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Re: electrolysis [Re: DieCommie]
    #8452061 - 05/27/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hi. I only read half the thread down to the solar car part.

Im on my university's solar car team. Perhaps I can help here.

First of all, a solarcar covered with $16,000 of high-efficiency solarcells puts out about 1500W in direct sun. Thats about as much electricity as a hair dryer uses. Solarcars must be built to be incredibly light and efficient. If you just put them on the roof of a normal car, we are talking like 600W or something (much less area).

Furthermore, using solarpower to make hydrogen on a moving car is a huge waste, as the conversion is much less than 100% efficient, so you are wasting power in order to create explosive gas as you are driving... Doesn't sound like the best way.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: electrolysis [Re: timmeh_87]
    #8453466 - 05/28/08 12:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

few things,

batterys slowly loose there energy so thats one thing to consider in the debate of h2o vs electric
where as gas i believe can be stored with minmal loss, you also don't have to replace anything to my knowledge, if you using panels going direct to hydrogen production

also with electric there is another problem, it takes a certain amount of energy to move a car, if you can't overcome this your going to sit there and use energy and not move. so when your batterys are low you will zap them completly dry with no benifit wasting alittle electricy

lastly, im not sure about this but, im going to guess it takes more power to move an electric car compared to gas over time. this is just a guess and i could be wrong. when i say this i assume 2 cars of the same weight

they had a car on myth busters and they designed it for drag racing based on electric motors. now i know the motors were built for speed, and they prob only used half the batterys to make it lighter,but it didn't run very long

so i get the impression that you would have to plug an electric car in every day to refill it, it just seems as thow hydrogen is better for storage, except for the danger aspect


p.s. imagine a garage with solar panels on the roof generating hydrogen and storing them into tanks, just a thought


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