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InvisibleLayYouIn
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Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes?
    #8425958 - 05/20/08 10:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:suicide:
Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes?
You may choose only one
Yes
A litte
No
What?
You may choose 2
Question
This
That
Answer
Who?
You may choose 1
Me
No
Them
Yes
You
Where?
You may choose 2
Somewhere
There
Here
Elsewhere
Everywhere
Nowhere
When?
You may choose 1
8:45
3:20
12:00
4:30
6:00
1:25
9:00
Why?
You may choose 2
Plutonium processing
Primary expenses
Detection devices
Nevertheless enjoyed
Excessive doses
Continuing flow
Only slightly
Watchdog agency


Votes accepted from (05/20/08 10:48 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8425969 - 05/20/08 10:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:rail:


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OfflineTangerines
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8425992 - 05/20/08 10:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I  think so, yes.

But we are strong enough already that we can take the weak genes. :shrug:

Come Armageddon and 90% of the population is dead, well that is a different story.


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: Tangerines]
    #8426050 - 05/20/08 11:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

We've compensated for a lack of genetic diversity and increasing evolutionary unfitness with technology.

No claws, no fur, laughable teeth, we're no longer built to survive on this planet.

But we've got the opposable thumb and the neocortex, hence, the ability to adapt without having to wait for the slow hands of evolutionary time to swing around.


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Offlinewoohoo1000
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: Tangerines]
    #8426055 - 05/20/08 11:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

weak genes could prove to be resistant to other types of viruses, diseases, they could even lead to beneficial mutations provided the environment was right


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: woohoo1000]
    #8426058 - 05/20/08 11:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You can't beat evolution.

Humans will still be naturally selected. We just haven't reached the tipping point yet.


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OfflineHyper_Panda_GO
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8426067 - 05/20/08 11:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Fun fact: Geneticism will become a social issue within 5 years or so


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OfflineClashingTaco
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: Hyper_Panda_GO]
    #8426161 - 05/20/08 11:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think the Spartans had a good theory but went about it the wrong way.

While I think everyone should have the right to procreate, I don't think they have the right to have 6 kids as dumb as them.


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: ClashingTaco]
    #8426243 - 05/20/08 11:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

ever seen idiocracy?


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #8426297 - 05/21/08 12:09 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)


it's inevitable "in a society whose advances are limited to its technology" ~ JTHM

all you guys need to respect the fact that us blond hair, blue eyed niggaz gotta stick together. :wink:


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8426301 - 05/21/08 12:10 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This reminds me of this one part in the movie Igby goes down, where they are smokin' a doobie:

"Basically, it's like reverse Darwinism.

A situation in which
a less evolved species...

...is better equipped to survive
than a more evolved creature.

Which, if you think about it,
isn't really reverse Darwinism, so much as...

...bigger-picture Darwinism, if you will."

LOL


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: thePatient]
    #8426307 - 05/21/08 12:10 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i can tell ur a vegatarian by the way u roll jays


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8426322 - 05/21/08 12:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know how much that would hurt society. But it seems to me that the people with undesirable genetics usually procreate with other people with undesirable genetics.

Fat people tend to have sex with fat people
ugly people tend to have sex with ugly people
midgets tend to have sex with midgets
stupid or uneducated people tend to have sex with stupid or uneducated people.

These trends are not absolute and will probably not lead to any branching off and splitting up into separate species. But that would be really interesting.


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: BoneMan]
    #8426340 - 05/21/08 12:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly what idocracy is about :tongue2:



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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: 0kehSt0nr]
    #8426482 - 05/21/08 12:53 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This poll is an interesting question but it really is hard to interpret or answer given that the statement that society "protects weak genes" isn't explained.

What are you talking about exactly? What are the weak genes and how does society protect them?


I guess I'd say that presuming you mean things like disease and such that it isn't a weak gene in the darwinian sense and so the question is moot unless you care to define what a week gene is if its not something related to species survival and propogation.


And I can't think of any "protections" off the top of my head that don't benifit strong and weak phenotypes alike, except for maybe aide to retarded people, but then this begs the question of what a weak gene is in the first place.


Quote:



Fat people tend to have sex with fat people
ugly people tend to have sex with ugly people
midgets tend to have sex with midgets
stupid or uneducated people tend to have sex with stupid or uneducated people.





yeah, exactly why I don't see how the premises of the original question are clear. All these traits appear to have nothing to do w/ species survival, and so I wonder what is meant by weak genes and helping them.


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: johnm214]
    #8426514 - 05/21/08 01:02 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

that instead of being killed off by predators, the weak are protected by the strong


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: johnm214]
    #8426528 - 05/21/08 01:07 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Weak genes is a matter of perspective depending on the environment. Heterozygous for sickle cell is technically a "stronger" gene for people that live in areas with malaria and not advantageous if living in areas with no malaria. Homozygous recessive for sickle cell is a disadvantage in areas with malaria. So if malaria spreads to an area with no heterozygous people then that community will go fucking extinct.

So basically all that shit about "strong genes" or "good genes" is bullshit. If and when the environment changes those organisms with that specific genetic make up will go fucking extinct EVEN if they were the organism with the so called "good genes". PEACE.


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Edited by downforpot (05/21/08 01:08 AM)


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: downforpot]
    #8426540 - 05/21/08 01:11 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

DFP's got a point, in the short term, we may see that society is weaker for it's practices, but in the long term, SOMETHING is going to happen to kill of a large portion of the population, and we're not sure what exactly this force is going to select for. Hint: it's not necesarilly going to be the Olympian sex god with an IQ of 180.

So it does eventually help us by expanding the gene pool. Sucks the big one for now though.


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OfflineBoneMan
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: johnm214]
    #8426562 - 05/21/08 01:21 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
What are you talking about exactly? What are the weak genes and how does society protect them?

Quote:



Fat people tend to have sex with fat people
ugly people tend to have sex with ugly people
midgets tend to have sex with midgets
stupid or uneducated people tend to have sex with stupid or uneducated people.





All these traits appear to have nothing to do w/ species survival, and so I wonder what is meant by weak genes and helping them.




I interpreted the idea of society protecting weak genes in a couple of ways. First being the fact that we have so much technology and infrastructure that keep us warm, and bring us water. We have cars to bring us to get food and clothing at stores where the goods have been brought in from all over the world. We don't have to find our own water, grow and hunt, etc. People who would never survive out in the wilds of nature are able to live very well in modern society.

Upon a situation where all of these systems failed and our essentials were cut off then we would have to do all that on our own. Our current way of survival is the ability to make money. When money stops having worth then our true survivability is put to the test.

Obese people, diseased or very frail and weak people would not be able to obtain (for themselves) all the things we need to survive. And the physically and mentally disabled, or just plain stupid people would also have a hard time getting by.

The other way I interpreted "society protecting weak genes" is the fact that people with undesirable physical and psychological characteristics (for whatever reason) are able to find a mate and possibly to have children. Their kids will also have undesirable characteristics, and will probably find another undesirable to have as a mate. The genes for those undesirable characteristics are perpetuated and blended with others.

That doesn't necessarily make those people any less resilient in the face of disease and other survival factors. The genes will certainly be diverse since the gene pool for undesirable people is extremely massive. I guess it just condemns most of them to have to take someone unattractive as a lover.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: BoneMan]
    #8426658 - 05/21/08 01:46 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i said, a little.

genes don't really matter so much anymore though, its alot more important about how you're raised.

you can have shitty genes, and if raised properly can still have a good life and give alot back to society.

you can have great genes and if raised improperly still have a really shitty life and give nothing back.


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OfflineSampaJasli
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #8426704 - 05/21/08 02:00 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Even if society does protect those with "weak genes" that does not necessarily lead to hurting the species. Just because those with weak genes survive, it does not mean that they will reproduce and pass on their genes. Social barriers are one example - For instance a mentally disabled person has less chance of producing offspring merely because they are perceived as less attractive by the opposite sex.


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: LayYouIn]
    #8426711 - 05/21/08 02:03 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i posted a question similar to this in the science forum and it was shot down pretty hard. of course i mentioned evolution and that is what everyone was freaking out about. but yeah i think medicines that are keeping weak genes in the pool are slowing us down. im tempted to call this a repost, but i dont know that you saw mine :tongue2:


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: nalyudi]
    #8429612 - 05/21/08 06:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nalyudi said:
i posted a question similar to this in the science forum and it was shot down pretty hard. of course i mentioned evolution and that is what everyone was freaking out about. but yeah i think medicines that are keeping weak genes in the pool are slowing us down. im tempted to call this a repost, but i dont know that you saw mine :tongue2:




Refute my statement.


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Invisiblenalyudi
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: downforpot]
    #8429633 - 05/21/08 06:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

you want me to prove you wrong?

how about stapling peoples stomach so they can be thin, then they reproduce, therefore passing on a gene that encourages obesity in that family


Edited by nalyudi (05/21/08 07:02 PM)


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OfflineTheHappieHippies
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: downforpot]
    #8429640 - 05/21/08 06:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I've contemplated this exact concept frequently. We as humans have overridden a few of nature's designs, like natural selection. Reproduction has been really screwed with and thrown completely out of nature's design. What I wonder is, are we as a species progressing, or just getting off track? Nature seems to be perfect, the laws are tested and true, and if we could only stay within the guidelines provided to us by our earth and the other species within it it would appear we could be much more successful at "progress". All we have really achieved is finding more and more ways to remain lazy...


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: TheHappieHippies]
    #8429699 - 05/21/08 07:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

it's not just that we're getting lazy. for example, i have biplar disorder and am a carrier of alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency (A1AD). sometimes i think it'd be almost cruel to bust a baby into this world with almost 100% chance of mental illness (the gf's bipolar too) and a chance of A1AD.

we shouldnt have shit like this circulating in the gene (seces)pool as much as it is.


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: 0kehSt0nr]
    #8429710 - 05/21/08 07:08 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Unless we're talking about down syndrom or something, there are so many disorders that don't significantly reduce a person's likelyhood to suceed. It's just stupid to say that that person doesn't deserve to live. (This argument is completely separate from any gene engineering type arguments).


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: nalyudi]
    #8429879 - 05/21/08 07:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nalyudi said:
you want me to prove you wrong?

how about stapling peoples stomach so they can be thin, then they reproduce, therefore passing on a gene that encourages obesity in that family




Food supplies drop for a short period of time. People with the most fat survive that short period of time and the rest die off. Who goes extinct in that short period of time? The fat fucks or the skinny fucks?

A virus infects people that specifically targets adipocytes. People with less adipocytes (skinnier) have less energy for prolonged tasks. People with more adipocytes (fatties) have more energy for prolonged tasks. Which one will be more successful in a task which is longer and results in a higher survivability than shorter tasks?


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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (05/21/08 07:59 PM)


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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: johnm214]
    #8430812 - 05/22/08 12:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

*cough* eugenics! *cough*

man I must have a cold or something


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8430867 - 05/22/08 12:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

YES IT DOES...by supporting people who need welfare your feeding weakness and letting it get all healthy and fat off food stamps...and then it is going breed more weak retarded white trash babies and inner city retardedness into a new generation with other people on welfare and make sick welfare babies...

if you cant afford to support your own needs and health care and family you should not breed at all...any somewhat smart person can find enough money to live and support a family... if you cant you should die....theres money all over the ground you just need to just go pick up ...if your to genetically weak to figure it out why should you be supported by society just so you can turn around and breed children like you

i say kill off the inbred white trash rednecks and ignorant uneducated other races and other genetic failures... and breed a supreme race from perfect specimens...just a thought but we did it with dogs, its called eugenics and can create near perfection if you knew what you were doing...it could also ruin everything tho unless you kept a master lol....


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: misterdogman]
    #8431409 - 05/22/08 02:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

misterdogman said:
YES IT DOES...by supporting people who need welfare your feeding weakness and letting it get all healthy and fat off food stamps...and then it is going breed more weak retarded white trash babies and inner city retardedness into a new generation with other people on welfare and make sick welfare babies...

if you cant afford to support your own needs and health care and family you should not breed at all...any somewhat smart person can find enough money to live and support a family... if you cant you should die....theres money all over the ground you just need to just go pick up ...if your to genetically weak to figure it out why should you be supported by society just so you can turn around and breed children like you

i say kill off the inbred white trash rednecks and ignorant uneducated other races and other genetic failures... and breed a supreme race from perfect specimens...just a thought but we did it with dogs, its called eugenics and can create near perfection if you knew what you were doing...it could also ruin everything tho unless you kept a master lol....




I spent alot of time contemplating these ideas as a younger man. And about how modern medicine promotes the de evolution of the human being. At the same time, I think that such a program would promote the survival of a less compassionate human being, and I think that this could be a genetic weakness. Imagine if we never had the true compassion of our parents as an infant. I think this would lead to an emotionally ill equipped human. I also think that when you look at the big picture of humanity as an entity in itself, it would be a weaker entity if it's parts didn't funtion as a whole. Compassion being a stimulant to help us work as a whole.


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #8431596 - 05/22/08 04:11 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think embracing the idea that we need to care for those who need it because they are inately valuable as human beings, is much more important for our race than weeding out genes we see as defective.


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: DimensionX]
    #8431969 - 05/22/08 09:07 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: SampaJasli]
    #8431986 - 05/22/08 09:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

were fucked anyways, even if the argument is a valid one. humans wont live long enough to evolve into some great genetic miracle, beyond what we have already accomplished.


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: DimensionX]
    #8431987 - 05/22/08 09:16 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well I'm not sure of how epic the genetic impact will be, here is my social perspective that may give some food for thought.  We human beings seem to feel like we've almost "beat the system" in terms of evolution in that we no longer need our physical hunting gathering skills to survive.  Granted, a vast majority of the planet still lives in poverty, but I am considering the hegemonic perspective here.  We are smart enough now, that we can control a great deal of the natural world and exploit it for our own survival.

As of 2003 I think, or maybe earlier, more than 50% of the world's population live in urban settings.  We have officially transferred from Agrarian to Urban.  There are more people now than there were 100 years ago, in fact, the population started to spike not too long ago, it's grown exponentially because we become so adept at manipulating nature.  More people survive and longer. 

Not only that but our ideals have changed.  Liberalism could be cited, so could the human rights movement.  The fact is, we humans believe we are supreme on earth, we have the right to harvest and reap.  Think about the Hippocratic oath, human life is to be preserved at all costs, quality is not considered, resources are not considered.  Think about how much efforts hospitals go through to preserve life in vain attempts. 

So our capabilities over nature are growing, so is our population and sense of entitlement.  But so are the problems associated with these.  Huge populations that consume at the rate we do are not sustainable.  The fact is there are way too many humans.  How can a planet sustain over 6 Billion humans who all theoretically have a right to govern one another, own a mansion, produce 5 bags of garbage a week, have as many kids as they choose get a good paying job, worship who they please, observe the holidays they please, eat as much as they please, and sleep with who they please.

How is that even feasible?  Something's going to downgrade the living condition, and it would be interesting to know the genetic rigour of 6 billion human beings who are cheating nature as they breed.  Another thing to consider is now the developed world and the so called developing world are already vastly different when it comes to diseases and immune systems.  They suffer diseases that we have all but conquered, yet all our resources go into curing diseases that only those in the "civilized" world suffer, think of Cancer research vs AIDS.  How long until that disease seperation gets bigger?  Right now you get shots before you travel, but with super bugs, pandemics, and the huge class divide it could get way worse. 

Holy shit that was long, I don't blame you if you don't read.  Sometimes I get typing and can't stop
</rant>:crazy2:


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8431996 - 05/22/08 09:20 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nunbuh_Chrubble said:
*cough* eugenics! *cough*

man I must have a cold or something




Totally agree. Eugenic-based societies have not proven successful in the past--both in their attempt to weed-out "faulty genes" and to have affluence.

Aside from that, geneticism fails to explain how twins can have two very distinct and different personalities (e.g. Cheng and Eng http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker --you don't get much closer than this, folks).

Until there can be a clear-cut, overt distinction between what traits are genetic and which are environmentally influenced, I believe that debating the issue is moot.


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Edited by Afroshroomerican (05/22/08 09:21 AM)


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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: DimensionX]
    #8432016 - 05/22/08 09:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Only in that we are now overpopulated. We are no longer hunter-gatherers, so genetic evolution is much less of a deciding factor in our survival than it once was.

The relevant factor now is behavioral and cultural evolution. Our genes are so well-suited towards caveman behavior that we are causing all sorts of unnecessary problems for ourselves: greed, materialism, violence, rape, prejudice, overeating, having more kids than we can take care of, jealousy, oppression, fear-mongering... every shitty thing human beings do is because we're still wild animals genetically.

All of these things are beneficial to hunter-gatherers, but they are detrimental to modern humans. We have to overcome the influence of our genetic conditioning in order to save humanity. It will take a widespread shift in values, towards compassion and mindfulness, and away from self-righteousness and selfishness.

Genetic evolution is far too slow to help us now.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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Re: Does society hurt our species by protecting the weak genes? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8432033 - 05/22/08 09:36 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I wonder what sort of genetic changes will be possible as we begin to migrate into space. I suspect a weightless environment may be just the catalyst we need.


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