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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

Registered: 12/11/00
Posts: 128
Loc: O NE
Tim's Bill of Rights
    #842253 - 08/25/02 02:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I've never heard of this before, but here it goes....
--------------------------

1.) Neither Speech, Press, Religion, nor Assembly shall be infringed, nor shall such be forced upon any person by the government of the United States.

2.) There shall be no standing military force during peacetime, (this) to include large bodies of federal law enforcers or coalitions of these officers that would constitute a military force, with the exception of sea-based maritime forces.

3.) The Executive Office shall hold no power to unilaterally alter Constitutional rights.

4.) No person shall be subjected to any form of direct taxation or wage withholdings by the Federal Government.

5.) No person's life or liberty shall be taken without due process. Any government employee circumventing due process rights shall be punished with imprisonment. Citizens shall not be subjected to invasions of their homes or property by employees of the Federal government. Property or other assets of United States citizens shall not be subject to forfeiture to the Federal government.

6.) Personal activities that do not infringe upon the rights or property of another shall not be charged, prosecuted, or punished by the United States government. Any crime alleged will be prosecuted by the jurisdiction most local to the alleged crime, respectively. No person shall be twicetried for an offense alleged and adjudicated in another jurisdiction. No person shall be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment for a crime convicted, or contract to another entity for this purpose. No person shall be held to account for the actions of another, unless proven by more than one witness to be the principal figure.

7.) All currency shall be redeemable in a globally recognized material of intrinsic value, such as silver.

8.) Legislative members shall earn no more than twice the current poverty level and shall not be subject to any additional pay, bonuses, rewards, gifts, entitlements, or other such privileges, as holding such office is meant to serve the people and should not be looked upon as a capitalist career opportunity.

9.) Where non-violent checks and balances fail to remedy government abuse or tyranny, the common people reserve the right to rebellion. Inherent with this right, the common people maintain the absolute right to own and possess those weapons which are used by any level of government for domestic policing.

10.) Any rights not enumerated here belong inherently to the people or the state respectively, and shall not be assumed by omission (to be) delegated to the jurisdiction of the Federal government.

Timothy J. McVeigh
28 May, 2001

(excerpt from "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace", Gore Vidal)
--------------------------

I especially like #8... I propose we enact #8 right fucking now. See how quickly things improve for the average citizen.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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Invisiblesuperpimp
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Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 8,706
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842260 - 08/25/02 03:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

People who blow up children don't have a right to an opinion.


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

Registered: 12/11/00
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: superpimp]
    #842290 - 08/25/02 03:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Uh huh.

I don't even know where to start with that one. In your estimation, then, none of us have rights to opinions, either, seeing as how our government murdered who-knows-how-many innocent little babies in hiroshima, korea, vietnam, or afghanistan in our name? Or does it not matter if the babies are little brown babies?

So, what would you say if Tim's name wasn't at the bottom of the list? Does it really matter who says it, if it means something? Regardless of your glib response, I think there are alot of valid points made which warrant some form of discussion beyond the knee-jerk "he's evil" argument -- which really shows no thought into the matter at all.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineUnity333
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842292 - 08/25/02 03:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with Superpimp, people that hurt children or adults lose there rights for an opion...



http://mushrooms.batcave.net/New%20index%5F2.htm


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

Registered: 12/11/00
Posts: 128
Loc: O NE
Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Unity333]
    #842305 - 08/25/02 03:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Do you two not get it? The point of the post was that McVeigh, for all of the bad press he got, had some good ideas. Regardless of what he did, the ideas are atomic. They stand on their own. They're some of the ideals that we should be reaching for...or at least that's my opinion at this moment in time.

I'd welcome a debate over the relevence of the bill, rather than the creator of it. It's always good to hear differing opinions.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842659 - 08/25/02 07:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i think this post is quite bad....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842676 - 08/25/02 07:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

wow, i just read through that whole thing not knowing exactly what tim you were referring to. i thought it was very logical and would be much better suited for us than the crap we have now. our constitution needs to be revised for technological changes and that looks good. too bad this name carries such negative connotations =(


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842727 - 08/25/02 07:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

toxick writes:

I'd welcome a debate over the relevence of the bill, rather than the creator of it. It's always good to hear differing opinions.

Doesn't matter to me who wrote it. There's some points in there no one can argue with, but some bad ones, too. I agree pretty much with everything except the following:

2.) There shall be no standing military force during peacetime, (this) to include large bodies of federal law enforcers or coalitions of these officers that would constitute a military force, with the exception of sea-based maritime forces.

This is just dumb. The days of everyone dropping their pitchforks and grabbing their swords to repel invaders are long gone. Modern warfare, even strictly defensive warfare, requires a well-trained, professional military. The time for preparation is BEFORE an invasion, not during one.

5.) ...Citizens shall not be subjected to invasions of their homes or property by employees of the Federal government.

Unworkable. I can perhaps agree with stiffer requirements for search warrants, but to say there is NO time when it is correct for the home of a citizen to be searched is just dumb.

...Property or other assets of United States citizens shall not be subject to forfeiture to the Federal government.

Same argument. If the property or assets in question were stolen from someone else (ransom from a kidnapping, stolen goods, etc.) then of course they must be subject to seizure. If the victim from whom they were stolen is no longer around to have his stuff returned to him (killed in the commission of the crime leaving no surviving heirs, for example) I see no objection to the government keeping it. It will at least defray some of the costs of trying and imprisoning the criminal.

8.) Legislative members shall earn no more than twice the current poverty level and shall not be subject to any additional pay, bonuses, rewards, gifts, entitlements, or other such privileges...

Good principle, and I understand the rationale, but it must be pointed out that the majority of members of congress made more in the private sector than they do in government office. They're in it not for the money, but for the power and the prestige. Maybe set the bar a little higher... how about "no more than fifty per cent higher than the current national average income".

All the rest of it is just fine with me. It would certainly be a vast improvement on what is in place in the USA today.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Eightball]
    #842735 - 08/25/02 07:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, it's a shame that people just see the name "Tim McVeigh" and then they shut down...

Sad, really... If I had left the name off of the bottom of the list, I'm sure the posts here would be much different.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842744 - 08/25/02 07:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

5.) No person's life or liberty shall be taken without due process.

What was that Mr. McVeigh? People shouldn't be killed without a fair trial?

I do think that #8 is a good idea, but McVeigh is a jackass.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Phluck]
    #842754 - 08/25/02 07:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know what scares me more Tim or the idea that i actually agree with you....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Phluck]
    #842761 - 08/25/02 07:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

sometimes big booms are required to focus the otherwise apathetic populus onto fairly important issues (issues that could be important enough for someone to say, "damn i need to blow something up to get this heard")


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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Invisibletoxick
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Phred]
    #842783 - 08/25/02 08:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

2.) There shall be no standing military force during peacetime, (this) to include large bodies of federal law enforcers or coalitions of these officers that would constitute a military force, with the exception of sea-based maritime forces.

Yeah, I was a little iffy on this one, too...but I don't really think it makes much sense to keep (and grow) such a large standing military, either. When was the last time we were invaded on our own land? I don't remember it ever happening since we stole the land from the enjuns... The military today is more of an offensive weapon to be used against foreign countries IN foreign countries. I think the purpose of this section was to limit our involvement overseas, and I can get behind that...maybe worded differently it could please us both

5.) ... Property or other assets of United States citizens shall not be subject to forfeiture to the Federal government.
If the property or assets in question were stolen from someone else (ransom from a kidnapping, stolen goods, etc.) then of course they must be subject to seizure. If the victim from whom they were stolen is no longer around to have his stuff returned to him (killed in the commission of the crime leaving no surviving heirs, for example) I see no objection to the government keeping it. It will at least defray some of the costs of trying and imprisoning the criminal.

I think the main gist of this section was to curtail rampant forfeiture by the federal government, which is a huge problem, what with the whole "War on Drugs" rubber stamp. I don't see a problem with property involved in crimes being seized by state government, if the original owner cannot take receipt, but what the hell are the feds doing with it? Let the local government profit from the profits taken from them by local criminals... Keep it in the family.

I think that a judiciously managed #5 along with the broad protection of #6 would go hand-in-hand, so to speak. People could no longer lose their houses and livelihoods just because they decide to [insert activity here] in the privacy of their own home.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842812 - 08/25/02 08:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

a standing military isn't really nessesary in todays technological age because the first line of defense is information. if they can get the CIA and FBI working correctly, they won't need to have troops amassed and trigger happy to be there so people can sleep at night.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842819 - 08/25/02 08:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I can no longer ask McVeigh what he really MEANT to say, all I can do is respond to the points as worded. As they stand, some of them could use some rethinking.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Eightball]
    #842825 - 08/25/02 08:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

so what will you do about training troops? A standing army IS neccesary...the best offense is to have a good defense


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Innvertigo]
    #842840 - 08/25/02 08:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

think of it like a big army reserves where they go in once a month or so and train and test.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Eightball]
    #842861 - 08/25/02 08:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

eightball writes:

a standing military isn't really nessesary in todays technological age because the first line of defense is information. if they can get the CIA and FBI working correctly...

That's a pretty big "if". Their track record to date does not exactly inspire confidence.

... they won't need to have troops amassed and trigger happy to be there so people can sleep at night.

Not so. It makes no difference if those agencies KNOW for a fact there is a squadron of bombers heading across the Atlantic to bomb Washington if there are no planes and pilots on hand to intercept those bombers before they reach their target.

Likewise, if Canada and Mexico decide they are going to invade the Land of the Golden Arches, KNOWING they will do so ain't gonna stop 'em from crossing the borders. You need an army for that.

Perfect intelligence information can REDUCE the size of the military required, but it can never eliminate the need for one entirely.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

Registered: 12/11/00
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Phred]
    #842879 - 08/25/02 08:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Well, I can no longer ask McVeigh what he really MEANT to say, all I can do is respond to the points as worded.



Well, obviously

From what I know of McVeigh (which, granted, isn't all THAT much), he was mainly against abuses perpetrated by the federal government, which is why he attacked the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building. Viewing his Bill of Rights in that light, I think it sheds a little light on what he meant.

Then again, I may be wrong -- I can't ask him, either...

So, how would you rework them? I've been kicking around a grand idea in my head of writing a new constitution for a while now, and would love to get some more ideas.

I would have a few things to add, like:

No law shall be passed that is not easily understood by the general public. (Thinking of the Tax "laws", here)
No legislation shall be considered by congress that covers more than one area of concern. (so that riders regarding...oh, say...digital rights management cannot be tacked onto a bill about education reform at the last minute, etc...)

Any more suggestions?


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842918 - 08/25/02 08:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

RE: "3.) The Executive Office shall hold no power to unilaterally alter Constitutional rights."

- I'm not sure that I totaly agree with this....(ex:) God knows where America would be on Alcohol laws today if the Consitution could never be amended/changed or clarified.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Jammer]
    #842937 - 08/25/02 09:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Under this constituion, there wouldn't be a problem because alcohol use falls under the protection of article #6. Same with any other form of mind-altering substance you feel like ingesting in the comfort of your own home.

I think one of the problems with our current system is that the ground rules are too easliy changeable by those whose powers are unchecked.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Innvertigo]
    #842951 - 08/25/02 09:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What about the swiss? Don't they have all of their men enlisted in the army? Don't they all train once a year? They all keep their guns at home, and they're all ready to fight at a moment's notice?

Maybe that was just a crazy dream I had about one day in school, but that seems about right.

Nobody fucks with the swiss, either. Hell, I wouldn't even mind being in the army if I knew it was being used as a purely defensive mechanism rather than the enforcement arm for the Dept. of Murder.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842958 - 08/25/02 09:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I totaly agree with ya... HOWEVER:

For those off us that live in "the south" within "dry" counties (where voters refuse to allow LEGAL alcohol sales to take place)- WE have to look to the Feds for a legal right to even drink beer within our own homes (for an adult over 21)!


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (08/25/02 10:44 PM)


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Jammer]
    #842967 - 08/25/02 09:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Damn...that boggles my mind.

I'm sitting here boggling.

bzzzzzt. crash. reboot.

How hard is it to change one of your county laws?

And what has the Fed done for you so far?


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842982 - 08/25/02 09:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

RE: "And what has the Fed done for you so far?"


Answer: I can drink beer in my home legaly.


duu.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #842989 - 08/25/02 09:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

RE: "How hard is it to change one of your county laws?"

Impossible.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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Invisibletoxick
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Jammer]
    #842994 - 08/25/02 09:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Great! So wouldn't this law be that much better then? I don't see what the problem is here We agree completely.



--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #843018 - 08/25/02 09:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The real problem is in how some people can so easily "tear-apart" and totaly misinterperupt what any law REALLY means.....

I think that there should be a means of at least clarifing laws for those that just "dont seem to get it.."


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Eightball]
    #843475 - 08/26/02 06:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Bullshit, McVeigh's idealistic views are nothing new, and nothing that every politician hasn't heard before already.

Think of it this way... communism was once a naive political idea. Once people started arming themselves and overthrowing governments it turned into a violent menace. That's exactly what McVeigh did to his ideas. He hasn't helped bring attention to them, he's helped them look more ridiculous and stupid. If he had half a brain he'd know that's exactly what would happen.
It amazes me that anyone could be so stupid to think that blowing up a building, killing hundreds of people including children is going to make others listen to their ideas.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Phluck]
    #843594 - 08/26/02 08:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It amazes me that anyone could be so stupid to think that blowing up a building, killing hundreds of people including children is going to make others listen to their ideas.
It works for governments.


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: ]
    #843916 - 08/26/02 10:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i think that merits a BOOYA


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: ]
    #844630 - 08/26/02 04:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

hmmmm...that was a good one....i smell a tad bit of hypocrisy in the air


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/26/02 04:12 PM)


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Offlinenugsarenice
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 3,442
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: toxick]
    #849284 - 08/28/02 02:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i thought you were digging up old parts of the constituion,, but those statements were actually mcveighs suiced notes,, huh..


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Offlinemarathonman
studento'shrooms
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 81
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Last seen: 19 years, 4 days
Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: Phluck]
    #850159 - 08/28/02 10:24 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

DING DING DING... Winner! (Referring to phluck)


--------------------
** Everything written here is a lie **


"There is nothing so exhilarating as being shot at, and missed." -- Theodore Roosevelt




Edited by marathonman (08/28/02 10:26 PM)


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

Registered: 12/11/00
Posts: 128
Loc: O NE
Re: Tim's Bill of Rights [Re: ]
    #853508 - 08/30/02 04:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

It works for governments.



It sure does


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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