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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Alien contact
    #841497 - 08/25/02 01:44 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Alien contact *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: Xlea321]
    #841795 - 08/25/02 08:26 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Post deleted by Swami


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #841890 - 08/25/02 09:56 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Good old swami - humourless to the end. The point (lost on you by the sound of it) was about freedom of choice.

And by the way the form of cancer Bill had (and at the age of 32) is unlikely to have been caused by smoking.


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Xlea321]
    #842081 - 08/25/02 12:34 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Bill Hicks was a hero.

I need some of his cd's.



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Mp3 of the month:  Wendell Austin and The Country Swings- LSD



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alien contact *DELETED* [Re: Xlea321]
    #842159 - 08/25/02 01:35 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Post deleted by Swami


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #842962 - 08/25/02 09:18 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Smokers with hereditary pancreatitis developed cancer at about the age of 50

Bill developed it at 31.

Please tell me where trainined oncologists say smoking gives you pancreatic cancer at 31.

btw, please try and answer this one - don't just run away like you did when I told you to explain in precise medical terms what a "short circuit" of the brain was.



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Xlea321]
    #843005 - 08/25/02 09:41 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Hey-seuss Kree-stay!
This is sooooo petty and irrelevant.

Alright, so you're arguing about Bill Hicks' character...
"He's a hypocrite."
"No he's not."
"Blah blah smoking blah blah pancreatic cancer..."
"But blah blah pancreatic cancer blah blah oncologists..."
"Blah blah REFERENCE blah blah"
"Blah blah blah what about this blah blah"

In the end, it really doesn't matter what Bill Hicks says. IF YOU BELIEVE IN ALIENS, that's fine... but don't try to "proove" it with logic. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. If there's no evidence that you can point to, then it's really an issue of FAITH. If you believe that aliens exist (based only on experience that is apparently not easily reproduced in just anybody), then that's fine.

When in Rome...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Alien contact [Re: Sclorch]
    #843155 - 08/25/02 11:44 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. If there's no evidence that you can point to, then it's really an issue of FAITH

It's not an issue of faith - not entirely. The existence of aliens is an issue of mathematical probablity and it will be so until there they decide to reveal themselves.

Dozens of extrasolar planets have been discovered so far - leading most astronomers to conclude that the solar system is typical, not special.
Water and complex organic molecules have been discovered in intersteller space - supports the theory that life began in space, not on planets.
Bacteria can survive for years in the vacuum and radiation of space - supports the theory that life can be "seeded" across space.

Do you really believe that in this great big universe we are the only living things?
I choose to believe because it seems LIKELY that aliens exist, not because of faith.

But it takes a great deal of FAITH to believe that aliens DON'T exist.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alien contact [Re: infidelGOD]
    #843202 - 08/26/02 12:54 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

You are merging two topics or questions into one which should be treated separately.

Question 1. (Which you partially explore) Is there life on other planets?

Question 2. Are we or have we been in contact with these lifeforms?

I would agree that the odds of only the Earth containing the only correct proportion of variables necessary to create/support life is highly unlikely.

The answer to question 2 is incredibly murky and should be further broken down.

A. Have we been physically visited by Aliens? If so, where or what may be considered evidence?

B. Are we being psychically (or interdimensionally) being visited by aliens, such as in the mushroom trance, as Alex and Bill suggest?


As 2B is the topic here, let's try to look clearly (if possible) at that issue.

Here are the facts as best I can summarize: (anyone may feel free to correct or add to this thought experiment):

1. Some trippers have alien contact experiences some of the time.

2. Of these trippers, alien contact only occurs (but not every time) on high doses.

3. Some high-dose trippers never have alien contact experiences.

True enough so far? OK some more questions come to mind. If this occurs in only some, and only some of the time, there are obviously more variables that we are unaware of. Let's put point 3. in question form and delve deeper:


Why do some (most? - a poll is in order here) high-dose trippers never have an alien contact experience? Why do some contactees, experience this only rarely?Here are some possible answers and each should be given consideration. This list is not complete.

1. High dose is a vague term. They simply did not take enough.

2. These trippers were not spiritually advanced enough to enter this higher dimension.

3. They had alien contact experiences, but were unable to remember.

4. Alien contact is a pure flight of fancy triggered only in individuals who are prone to suggestion and fantasy.

5. The aliens weren't "home" when the attempted connection was made.

6. The aliens choose the where, when and with whom they speak.


Now some of these possibilities are total showstoppers (by that I mean no more exploration is possible - such as the aliens intentions), others might actually be testable.

Here are two possibilities:

1. A guide be written by contactees to help non-contactees achieve this state.

2. An experiment be done to test the similarity in visions. If two or more unaffiliated people were to submit descriptions immediately after the trip to a moderator describing in detail their adventure and the descriptions matched, then that might very well be indicative of something fantastic going on.

We could all share our opinions and the ensuing verbal repartee may be entertaining, but I, for one, would find it much more interesting in proving or disproving this scenario (if possible).


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/26/02 03:07 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #843236 - 08/26/02 02:25 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Wow Swami I must say I am impressed. This is how progress is made.
I will be thinking about this:

1. A guide be written by contactees to help non-contactees achieve this state.

This is a very good idea, and I would be willing to partake in such an endeavor, as would others I am sure.

For the others I will ponder over those as well. Here's my stance on it, I have scattered bits and pieces of information and facts that could be considered verfiable evidence or researched. My problem is in presenting these things in a 'scientific manner' as you may be well aware. I'm working on this however, but with the cooperation of such scientific minds such as yourself in this forum, I think that a suitable middle ground could be reached.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #843336 - 08/26/02 03:40 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Is there life on other planets?

Yes.

Question 2. Are we or have we been in contact with these lifeforms?

Probably, we have.

A. Have we been physically visited by Aliens? If so, where or what may be considered evidence?

Probably.
As for evidence, pictures, video and eyewitness accounts can't be considered evidence - they are too easy to fake. So If you're looking for hard evidence that I can post here, forget it. I can only give you anecdotal evidence and probabilities.
Of course you know of the Drake equation - N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL. It calculates the number of technologically advanced civilizations in the galaxy. Even using convervative values, it predicts that there are hundreds.

Unfortunately, the Drake equation doesn't calculate the likelihood that they have or will physically contact us. But I will make the assumption that if they exist and they know of our presence and they are technologically capable, they will probably try to contact us.

Even if you reject that it's mathematically probable that aliens have or are contacting us, you can't ignore the huge amount of anecdotal evidence recorded throughout history.

B. Are we being psychically (or interdimensionally) being visited by aliens, such as in the mushroom trance, as Alex and Bill suggest?

It's possible, but unlikely.
Maybe they want to contact us through mushrooms so they can hide their presence.
Maybe our sober minds aren't capable of grasping their langauge.
Maybe the mushrooms ARE the aliens.

Or maybe mushrooms have nothing to do with aliens. But taking them opens your mind to new experience, and the aliens will only reveal themselves to those with open minds.




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Alien contact [Re: infidelGOD]
    #843346 - 08/26/02 03:45 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Maybe the aliens are already in our brains...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Alien contact [Re: infidelGOD]
    #844062 - 08/26/02 12:05 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Or maybe mushrooms allows us to peek into different dimensions, where aliens may be able to communicate with us easier.

When you take mushrooms, maybe it adjusts your internal "antennae" to pick up their signals better.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Alien contact [Re: Adamist]
    #844156 - 08/26/02 12:57 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Or maybe quantum non-locality means there are an infinite series of possible realities the brain can access in altered states. Penrose's latest theories suggest the brain operates on the quantum level independent of space and time.

Or perhaps the brain for some unknown reason has a series of archetypes present in it that in the past were regarded as Gods and angels but in our technological age are now interpreted as aliens.


--------------------
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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Xlea321]
    #844513 - 08/26/02 03:26 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

There will always be a plethora of "maybe"s.
What's missing here is an experimental approach to a definitive answer in regards to the topic at hand. Sure, this concept could be deemed "cold, hard science" "skeptical" "cynical" or whatever... but it would most certainly clear things up. Just discussing HOW to prove such things will benefit everyone... even if nothing is proven. Speculation is nothing without application.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Alien contact [Re: Sclorch]
    #845323 - 08/26/02 09:00 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Fine. Suggest a way of experimentally proving things.


--------------------
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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Alien contact [Re: Xlea321]
    #845340 - 08/26/02 09:05 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

The burden of proof is not mine.
However...

Is the following not sufficient?
2. An experiment be done to test the similarity in visions. If two or more unaffiliated people were to submit descriptions immediately after the trip to a moderator describing in detail their adventure and the descriptions matched, then that might very well be indicative of something fantastic going on.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Sclorch]
    #845348 - 08/26/02 09:09 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

So, you want me to post the five hundred PMs I've gotten in the past couple years from people on this board describing their contact experiences or what?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Alien contact [Re: Sclorch]
    #845380 - 08/26/02 09:21 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

The burden of proof is not mine.

So in other words you can offer nothing constructive? Why add to the thread if this is the case? It sounds like you just want to naysay something.

Is the following not sufficient?

This is scientific? I thought you were talking about seriously examining the brain to see what happens during entheogenic experiences. Bill Hicks said he'd met insectoids who said they were his older brothers here to help his evolution, I experienced the same thing several years before I heard Bill say it. Whether or not this proves aliens exist I don't know. It could just imply the existence of a collective unconscious. However, the question then is why does the collective unconscious has these things stored in it. Science is unlikely to ever be able to prove anything on this level.


--------------------
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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Shroomism]
    #845399 - 08/26/02 09:31 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Trip moderator... not forum moderator.

There would have to be something unique to each experience that couldn't be faked. This sounds kind of tricky, I know. It would be best to experiment with individuals who are allegedly able to communicate with these aliens. That way, it would be possible to give each person a specific question about alien technology. If the answers match... then that is grounds for some serious investigation. If you could repeat this anytime, anywhere, I'm sure you could get alot of attention... and funding for research. Hell, maybe it would change people's minds about psychedelics... alien technology would be quite alluring to the government for sure. Publish it in a major magazine... once it's in the media, no government conspiracy could suppress it.

By not subjecting these experiences to scientific scrutiny, you risk not being able to reap the benefits of cold fusion or teleportation or advanced medical technology. It would be selfish to not try to gain such things from your experiences... just think, YOU could change the world with a simple physics formula you brought back from one of these experiences.

Of course, this is all speculation based on some trippers' subjective experiences with psychedelics. Until there's proof, such speculation only hurts the possibility of the legalization of psychedelics.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Xlea321]
    #845660 - 08/27/02 03:59 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I thought you were talking about seriously examining the brain to see what happens during entheogenic experiences.
That would be interesting, but one must first get the scienctific community's attention before time and money is put into such examinations.

Bill Hicks said he'd met insectoids who said they were his older brothers here to help his evolution, I experienced the same thing several years before I heard Bill say it.
Anecdotes are intriguiging, but are never accepted in the scientific realm except as a starting point for research. This has nothing to do with mistrust or close-mindedness. In any experiment, a researcher needs to control the number of variables to get a clear picture of what is happening to prevent coming to false conclusions.

Whether or not this proves aliens exist I don't know. It could just imply the existence of a collective unconscious. However, the question then is why does the collective unconscious has these things stored in it. Science is unlikely to ever be able to prove anything on this level.
Before science comes to any conclusion about the nature or meaning of these visions, it would first and foremost like to confirm that something extraordinary is going on. One step at a time...






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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Shroomism]
    #845696 - 08/27/02 04:24 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Introductory note: Here we have this amazing collective of minds and experiences, and what do we do with it? Amuse, tease, share, etc., but we have nothing to show for all our discussions (am talking about the S&P, not the shroomery-at-large which has done a fantastic service). The prevailing attitudes seems to be on one side: "You are delusional." and on the other: "I experienced something amazing and that is good enough for me."

Isn't it about time that we actually UTILIZE this collective? *steps down from soapbox*


So, you want me to post the five hundred PMs I've gotten in the past couple
years from people on this board describing their contact experiences or what?


500 PMs is a great starting point. Perhaps you and some others could collate or summarize these experiences.

For example:

12% have to be taken aboard a ship (compare ship descriptions)
23% meet the Mantids
8% meet Octopi-like aliens
71% found the experience to be frightening
32% found it to be a life-changing experience

...and so on.

What was the average dosage?
How experienced was the tripper?
How was their life changed?

A questionaire could be developed.

Shroomism, you could hand-pick subjects (of those interested in participating) for a series of experiments by choosing those able to bring back the clearest data.

Maybe those of us that participate here on the S&P have been "selected" to crack open the 4th dimension. It's time to stop talking and start doing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #845701 - 08/27/02 04:27 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I like your attitude... I've got some ideas brewing..



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Anonymous

Re: Alien contact [Re: Shroomism]
    #845972 - 08/27/02 06:28 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Why not arrange a few gatherings for the purpose of exploration and validation? Set up protocols and get volunteers for moderators and subjects.


Edited by Evolving (08/27/02 06:29 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #846010 - 08/27/02 06:48 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Respect to the swami!

Sounds like a good idea shroomism.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Xlea321]
    #846039 - 08/27/02 07:01 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

You know an interdimensional shift is near when Alex and the Swam walk together into the sunset - LOL!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alien contact [Re: ]
    #846043 - 08/27/02 07:03 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Why not arrange a few gatherings for the purpose of exploration and validation? Set up protocols and get volunteers for moderators and subjects.

Nudity! Will it involve nudity?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Swami]
    #846678 - 08/27/02 12:22 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Swami - I like this idea a lot, and I think it's an excellent place to start
Shroomism - if you need any help with this I'll be more then willing to assist in any way I can

Wouldn't it be ironic if the proverbial 'truth' was actually uncovered in some internet message board? Personally, I think this isn't alll that far fetched...places like this don't have to put up with all the politics of the scientific community, participants would all be people who were truely dedicated, and the net could definately provide a neverending supply of like-minded people. I don't see why an online conglomeration couldn't be possible. It's like they say - there's powers in numbers...and with enough people giving it their all, nothing is impossible.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Alien contact [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #846780 - 08/27/02 01:05 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Very interesting. I've done my own research and such and composed a theroy like what Adamist said above. I think alien contact has been with people on mushrooms or something similar. I've also heard a lot of alien shit with people who take DMT. Maybe aliens aren't in physical form and just evolved enough to travel the galaxy by projecting themselves. Maybe that's our next step in evolution.






--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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