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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 7 months, 21 days
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8388290 - 05/11/08 07:44 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: China could get rid of those criminals in a heartbeat. Possibly without firing a shot of their own.
Agreed, and it would be nice to see them do something.
But as much as they hemmed and hawed and then did next-to-nothing about Darfur, I wouldn't hold my breath.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8388360 - 05/11/08 08:25 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is getting to be distressing. You have actually agreed with me several times lately and professed your undying love in the Sports Forum. Well, maybe not undying, but perhaps a bit of a mancrush, eh? Scary. Soon you'll be sending me flowers. I've seen it before and it always ends in disappointment for one of the parties. I'll leave it to you to guess which one.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 7 months, 21 days
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8388367 - 05/11/08 08:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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You know, I am coming up to NYC to see a Yankees game w/ OMR before they rip down your Stadium.
Maybe I'll show up at your doorstep in August.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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JRayV
former guy on couch
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 818
Loc: l
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8388394 - 05/11/08 08:48 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
China could get rid of those criminals in a heartbeat. Possibly without firing a shot of their own.
They could give em the ol' Tibetan cane treatment.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8388442 - 05/11/08 09:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: You know, I am coming up to NYC to see a Yankees game w/ OMR before they rip down your Stadium.
Maybe I'll show up at your doorstep in August.
Get security on the phone. Now.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8388486 - 05/11/08 09:32 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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didn't china provide direct military support to the killers in darfur?
I wouldn't call that doing "next-to-nothing".
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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The Tourist
Visiting Stranger
Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 145
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#8391229 - 05/12/08 12:14 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushmonkey said:
Quote:
JRayV said: The U.S., no.
The U.N., if they can agree on taking action as a whole, maybe.
that won't ever fucking happen. the UN agreeing on taking action? lol.
That is, not if the good ol' U.S.A. has anything to say!!!
U.S. security council vetoes since 1966: 82
Russia/ USSR vetoes since 1966: 17
-------------------- "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krishnamurti "That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.” Noam Chomsky
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8391384 - 05/12/08 01:20 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Saving the lives of human beings is much more important to me than pleasing the wishes of a military dictatorship, but I'm a wackjob like that.
Oh, and I'm not going to reply to any Kantian replies such as, "If you ignore the sovereignty of one nation then you ignore all sovereignty" so don't bother.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: The Tourist]
#8391601 - 05/12/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, a number of our vetoes were on shit to get Israel out of Palestinian land, at least one was on that whole stupid International Court shit, and frankly I don't care what the others were.
Here's a list of stupid ones dealing with Israel. http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2005/0505014.html
To sum that up most of it was condemnations the UN wanted to pass against Israel during the Yom Kippur war, for blowing up PLO bases, that sort of stupid shit. 39 of them there. You can probably assume a handful of the others were either communist-type deals back in the day, or world-government/court type bullshit that's.. just bullshit.
The UN is fucking stupid, it's at LEAST as corrupt as any other governmental body and I strongly suggest it's actually much worse. Oil For Food program / Kofi Annan ohai?
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#8391833 - 05/12/08 07:59 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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didn't Annan and/or his son embezzle a bunch of money or some shit like that?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: afoaf]
#8392558 - 05/12/08 12:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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yeah, but it was never definitively proven.. annan appointed a prosecuter to investigate it but the guy had no subpoena power from what i recall, so just had to go around sayin "HAY GUIZ U KNOW WHATS UP? NO? OH, WELL OK DEN!" tied his son to it, but i don't think anything ever came of that.. and had circumstantial evidence that kofi was involved, but most likely he just really did well at covering his tracks. all over the oil for food corruption, yeah.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8394284 - 05/12/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Any free nation has the moral right to assist the enslaved in freeing themselves. Do not confuse "right" with "obligation", however.
Elaborate, please. As in, what definition of morality are you basing this on, and how do you define "right"?
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Loc: Charm City
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8394295 - 05/12/08 08:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes, the absolutely correct thing to do in this situation would be for the UN to just start dropping food with huge decals that say "brought to you by the fine folks at the UN, peel lid add flavor packet and enjoy."
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: gluke bastid]
#8394539 - 05/12/08 09:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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What's to elaborate?
It's self-evident that any group of free people have the right to assist those who are enslaved with freeing themselves. What definition of morality do you follow which denies this truth?
Phred
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8395481 - 05/13/08 04:17 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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> It's self-evident that any group of free people have the right to assist those who are enslaved with freeing themselves.
To help, or to force? In the original article, I read the statement to mean it is appropriate to force freedom upon others regardless of what they want. If the majority of a group of enslaved people ask for help, then yes, we have a moral obligation to help them... but we certainly do not have some god given right to judge other cultures or to force them to adapt to our way of life for their own good.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Seuss]
#8396397 - 05/13/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
If the majority of a group of enslaved people ask for help, then yes, we have a moral obligation to help them...
No, we have no obligation to help them. We do, however, have the right.
Phred
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Phred]
#8400040 - 05/14/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: What's to elaborate?
It's self-evident that any group of free people have the right to assist those who are enslaved with freeing themselves. What definition of morality do you follow which denies this truth?
We're derailing into a more general debate here. Why do you assume that I am not in agreement with you? I have just never heard anyone talk about one country having the "right" to invade another, so I was interested. I think there are situations in which military intervention is justifiable and in even fewer cases the right thing to do...but I would never put my argument in terms of rights. I guess I think of rights as being totally static. Like the right of free speech, for example. One should always have the right to say whatever they please regardless of what they are talking about. You're talking about a notion of rights in which the right itself is dependendant on a very subjective set of circumstances that are going to be harder to agree on.
I don't agree with the statement "It's self evident that any group of free people have the right to assist those who are enslaved with freeing themselves." If this were true, I would have the right to break someone out of prison if I knew they were innocent. Are you telling me I have the right to enact a jailbreak on GITMO for prisoners who have yet to be tried? Somehow I doubt you are...
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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AScannerDarkly
On StrangerTides
Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 445
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: zappaisgod]
#8407844 - 05/16/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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The solution to Burma. And darfur too, for that matter:
-------------------- [quote]Voido said: [quote]drken said: Dont get me wrong he is a funny guy, just not a great actor. Smoke some bud and watch the movie, weed helps me pick out shitty acting. [/quote] no your just stoned. stop smoking pot [/quote]
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: AScannerDarkly]
#8407893 - 05/16/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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yeah.. that's a good idea. let's send the UN in, so *they* can rape the shit out of everyone!
i hear that's all they're really good at. raping brown people.
honestly, name something else the UN has accomplished recently that is NOT raping africans.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Should Relief be Provided in Burma Against Gov't Wishes? [Re: Mushmonkey]
#8408173 - 05/16/08 02:41 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Kosovo.
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