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OfflineHippySmoke
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The theory of unavoidable mutation.
    #8405615 - 05/15/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

My friend has never consumed a single mushie because she firmly believes in a theory that I would like to call "unavoidable mutation".

She firmly believes that even when cultivating the species and taking every step possible to control the conditions eventually there will be one "mutant" shroom or in some cases even a mutant "batch" that will most definately contain a non psychedelic poison which can either A. cause vomiting or B. a number of other options one being death.

I assured her as long as your intelligent, observant and patient her theory is not so... well... good to put it mildly. Then we began a heated discussion of the subject and I eventually yielded to her theory but only in WILD cases (IE: cubensis on some cow poo never touched by man all conditions are dependant on nature)

But some experienced shroomers I have to ask... her theory is bunk right? As least in the the case of human cultivation.
Is the theory bunk?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (05/15/08 02:44 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll


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Offlinejohnny.fairplay
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: HippySmoke]
    #8405619 - 05/15/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Thats like saying if i raise apples i shouldn't eat them because they might mutate to make poisons.

Total bunk

More mushies for you though!


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Offlinexshadowmage666x
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: johnny.fairplay]
    #8405624 - 05/15/08 02:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnny.fairplay said:
Thats like saying if i raise apples i shouldn't eat them because they might mutate to make poisons.

Total bunk

More mushies for you though!




:werd:


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Offlinenonlinear
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: johnny.fairplay]
    #8405637 - 05/15/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

yea, and there would be reports all over the place of people dying after eating mushrooms. Actually, psilocybin mushrooms are known to be very safe and non-toxic


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Offlinetheratatat
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: xshadowmage666x] * 1
    #8405655 - 05/15/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Those kind of mutations would be next to impossible, the species isn't poisonous. The DNA synthesis process has many safeguards to prevent errors during transcription. A major error that slipped through would result in the species being non-functional. Such as a fetus that doesn't make it to term.

How often do you see humans grow an extra facial feature or an entirely new organ? On the other hand slight variations in DNA result in already present features being tweaked.

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Offlinexshadowmage666x
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: theratatat]
    #8405675 - 05/15/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

theratatat said:
Those kind of mutations would be next to impossible, the species isn't poisonous. The DNA synthesis process has many safeguards to prevent errors during transcription. A major error that slipped through would result in the species being non-functional. Such as a fetus that doesn't make it to term.

How often do you see humans grow an extra facial feature or an entirely new organ? On the other hand slight variations in DNA result in already present features being tweaked.




stfu we arent talking about people here

and for the record psilicybin IS a poison


--------------------

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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: nonlinear]
    #8405698 - 05/15/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nonlinear said:
yea, and there would be reports all over the place of people dying after eating mushrooms. Actually, psilocybin mushrooms are known to be very safe and non-toxic




Not true, it can kill you..It depends on the person..


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Offlineabica
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: Brainiac]
    #8405733 - 05/15/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This young lady doesn't know much about genetics, does she?

Anyway, regardless of the near total impossibility of your shrooms or my FOAF's cat's pet cute little goldfish suddenly becoming poisonous,

Quote:


The toxicity of psilocybin is relatively low; in rats, the oral LD50 is 280mg/kg, approximately one and a half times that of caffeine. When administered intravenously in rabbits, psilocybin's LD50 is approximately 12.5mg/kg.[10] The lethal dose from psilocybin intake alone is unknown at recreational or medicinal levels, and has never been documented.



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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: abica]
    #8405742 - 05/15/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

If water can kill, Psilocybin can...


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Offlinetheratatat
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: xshadowmage666x]
    #8405750 - 05/15/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

We are actually more closely related to fungus then plants or bacteria, so I really don't think you know what you are talking about.

You are also spouting garbage from the MADD or something. The LD 50 of psilocybin is higher then caffine or nictoine, Are they poisons?

You might also want to let me know what part in particular about my statement that you don't think is factual. So I can correct in the future.

Edited by theratatat (05/15/08 03:34 PM)

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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: theratatat]
    #8405781 - 05/15/08 03:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I have a Mushroom Poisondex Poster..It classifieds Psilocybin as Class E, Group 6. Says it can be fatal to small kids..

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Offlinetheratatat
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: Brainiac]
    #8405800 - 05/15/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

As can plastic bags and buckets half filled with water.

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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: HippySmoke]
    #8405806 - 05/15/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HippySmoke said:
My friend has never consumed a single mushie because she firmly believes in a theory that I would like to call "unavoidable mutation".

She firmly believes that even when cultivating the species and taking every step possible to control the conditions eventually there will be one "mutant" shroom or in some cases even a mutant "batch" that will most definately contain a non psychedelic poison which can either A. cause vomiting or B. a number of other options one being death.

I assured her as long as your intelligent, observant and patient her theory is not so... well... good to put it mildly. Then we began a heated discussion of the subject and I eventually yielded to her theory but only in WILD cases (IE: cubensis on some cow poo never touched by man all conditions are dependant on nature)

But some experienced shroomers I have to ask... her theory is bunk right? As least in the the case of human cultivation.




this is totally stupid

anytime you question someones conclusion look at their premise they use to come to the conclusion.. In this case, it was probably rumored around by word of mouth


--------------------
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the moon in autumn,
a cool breeze in summer,
snow in winter.
If your mind isn't clouded by unnecessary things,
this is the best season of your life."
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Offlineabica
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: theratatat]
    #8405844 - 05/15/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Regardless of which kingdom we're talking about...

What are the chances of an organism suddenly synthesizing a new compound? Even one atom different from what that organism has been crankin' out for the last 2000 years since the world was created?

I'm not asking that as a rhetorical question, because I don't know the answer. But I bet the answer is "oh, somewhere around 1 in 4 billion." ???

Of course caffeine and nicotine are poisons. I guess? It doesn't take a hell of a lot of nicotine to poison someone.

From Webster's New World Medical Dictionary:

Quote:

Poison: Any substance that can cause severe distress or death if ingested, breathed in, or absorbed through the skin. Many substances that normally cause no problems, including water and most vitamins, can be poisonous if taken in too large of a quantity.



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Offlineaerofanbig
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: abica]
    #8406004 - 05/15/08 04:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

seriously? you're friend rides the short bus. thats like saying a pie might suddenly turn into a steak lol

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Offlinerev 766
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: aerofanbig]
    #8406310 - 05/15/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

i honestly can't remember where i read it, it was quite some time ago, but i saw something to the effect of mushrooms are safer for your body than pot. but since the federal government says that also has no use, i guess it really IS dangerous
:stonedjerk:


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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: xshadowmage666x]
    #8406367 - 05/15/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xshadowmage666x said:

stfu we arent talking about people here

and for the record psilicybin IS a poison




theratatat had a valid point. he used human genetics as a reference. genetics are the same whether its a plant, bacteria, fungi or animal.

For the record its spelled psilocybin, jackass.


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OfflineOverclock22
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: BlimeyGrimey] * 1
    #8406399 - 05/15/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Mutations, almost all of the time, aren't useful and only hurt the creature.

Its one of the major faults with evolution; most mutations we see in nature wouldn't lead to a new species because the sex cells haven't changed just something on he parent.


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OfflineLennyk
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: rev 766]
    #8406418 - 05/15/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The toxicity is less than aspirin. So it goes to show we can down bottles of Tylenol (hell for the body) but when it comes to mushrooms, just too dangerous for us:mad2:

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InvisibleElementium
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: Lennyk]
    #8406455 - 05/15/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:
The toxicity is less than aspirin. So it goes to show we can down bottles of Tylenol (hell for the body) but when it comes to mushrooms, just too dangerous for us:mad2:




Playing devil's advocate here... but, the disputed potential risks of Psilocybin aren't solely physical.

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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: Elementium]
    #8406508 - 05/15/08 07:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Lol, your friend sounds like she's easy to rape.

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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: nolongerinuse]
    #8406655 - 05/15/08 07:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

This is a good thread, I wish I had something to contribute


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Offlinerev 766
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: nolongerinuse]
    #8407457 - 05/15/08 10:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

new2grow said:
Lol, your friend sounds like she's easy to rape.


:mattz:


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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: rev 766]
    #8408138 - 05/16/08 02:11 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Easy to rape!?... I am not going to dignify that with any other than a WTF??

But back to the primary subject I held the same main belief's as you all, but I still wondered if it was possible even if 1 in a million and or if her theory had any root's. My knowledge of genetic's is beyond limited to put it mildly but to not say that mutation is inevitable would be kind of debunking the entire theory of evolution eh? (please no flaming me for my curiousity, lack of knowledge or turning this into a religious subject this is question of science.)

EDIT: Also I was alway's under the belief that psilocybin WAS indeed a poison not unlike food poisoning (or alchohol poisoning in some ways) and therefore as ONE class of poison if something were altered consistenly to cause a stable mutation then is it not possible for the poison to gain a new sort of toxicity? Can anyone please find information from a trusted source as to whether or not psilocybin is really even a poison?

Edited by HippySmoke (05/16/08 02:16 AM)

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Invisiblewisp

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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: HippySmoke]
    #8408203 - 05/16/08 03:12 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

it's about as likely as cultivated apples turning deadly.

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Offlineabica
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: wisp]
    #8408667 - 05/16/08 09:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Just go back and look at my definition of poison. Then check out the LD50 dosage. Wait...I guess anything with a median lethal dose is a poison. (not trying to be a smartass, just realized that I was being redundant there lol)


Quote:

to not say that mutation is inevitable would be kind of debunking the entire theory of evolution eh?





From www.evolutionhappens.net:

Quote:

The three main mechanisms are mutation, natural selection and genetic drift. A mutation is any change in the DNA base sequence (genetic information) of a gene. However, only heritable mutations, those occurring in the gametes (reproductive cells) or the cell lineage contributing to the gametes, are involved in evolution. Such mutations, known as germinal mutations, can result from many factors, including natural background radiation, chemical mutagens and viral infection. Because only a small portion of the genetic sequence of the DNA molecule is used to code for proteins, most mutations do not result in new traits. Of the mutations which do result in new traits, most are harmful. That is, they interfere with an organisms physiology or in some other way reduce an organisms adaptability to its environment. However, sometimes just by chance, a mutation will occur which produces a trait that leaves an individual possessing it better adapted to its environment. In most cases, an individual that is better adapted to its environment, will tend to produce more offspring than an individual who is less well adapted.





I don't know enough about psil. synthesis to make any claims, nor do I know enough about how DNA controls or sets up chemical synthesis. But understanding these things, coupled with understanding mutations, would lead you to your answer.

Anyway, the thought that shrooms could suddenly start pumping out psyilo's evil poisonous cousin...that would be an amazing discovery!


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Edited by abica (05/16/08 09:18 AM)

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Offlinetheratatat
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: abica]
    #8408782 - 05/16/08 09:52 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It is very complicated process called transcription involving a physical unraveling of the DNA double helix to read the code within. It is split down the middle and copied to RNA. The mRNA or messenger RNA tells a part of the cell to start creating certain proteins. It would have to be this process that would be involved in causing such a change.

Either way the odds are drastically against this happening and is completely without merit. Where I would worry about this kind of thing is in the GM food market, food that you consume everyday without your knowledge.

Gene splicing techniques are getting better but they are like trying to take out a splinter with your fingers instead of tweezers. Sequences are spliced by accident that are not intended. These processes are much more likely to give rise to genetic mutations when we consume this food.

Tell your friend to re-target her concerns to the people that are directly manipulating the gnome of many species and tell them to be careful.

Cheers

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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: theratatat]
    #8408843 - 05/16/08 10:19 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

you unbelievers! the mutated one will come for you!
:dogapple:


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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: Primal Glitch]
    #8409778 - 05/16/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

NOW that's what I was looking for the expansion of knowledge!

Abica, Theratatat I do appreciate both of you giving me very knowledgable answers. Now when the argument comes up again I'll have a little bit of ground to stand when explaining to her why I never worry about it, and had never even though of it before she brought it up.

Evolution IMOP is enevitable, evolution or extinction but there are so many factor's that apparently more than I can really comprehend that apparently in a way safeguard mutation from spreading if by some god forsaken chance there was some kind of mutant "sleeping beauty's apple" mushroom or something then it would be an absolutely isolated case (and the chances of it are beyond slim)

Thank you ALL very much for such an intelligent gathering and sharing of idea's and knowledge.

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Offlineabica
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: HippySmoke]
    #8409948 - 05/16/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I think you've hit it on the head with the "isolated case" but even that is an extremely remote possibility.

I'd need more knowledge about chemical synthesis, but just venturing a wild know-nothing guess, I'd say that the "programming" related to synthesis is somewhat complex- the organism sets up a "system" of sorts to pump out whatever chemical it is designed to make.

A mutation in that system would be much more likely to halt production of any chemical what so ever than to make it start producing something new...that's my totally uneducated guess.

Even though her idea was sort of akin to the moon being green cheese, it is an interesting conversation that makes me want to leisurely learn a bit more about our favorite fun guy.


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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: HippySmoke]
    #24912463 - 01/14/18 12:54 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Technically, and i mean very technically. This could happen.
HOWEVER, the likelihood of this one off mutation is so slim that it is virtually impossible.

Okay so consider a Hypothetical scenario where the mushroom in question was isolated several times and during some point in their growth from germ to fruit encountered a mutation in the DNA (be it through damage caused by UV or otherwise) that caused a new chemical compound to be produced by the mycelial mass.

You obviously would likely be entirely unaware that you were breeding this mushroom to eventually be deadly, but that also means that as you continue to isolate the genome by following your desired mutations this trait could potentially be sourced out, or may in fact continue to grow in the host.

The likelihood of this scenario in reality is slim to none and i mean SLIM.
Because new mycelial growth is always subject to genetic change or variation even isolating a separate genome in the first place would be difficult.

Think of it like if the fungi was producing another chemical and at such a high rate can it still interbreed with the "same" species or can we even at that point consider it the same species at all. I'd compare that to taking the time scale from one species to another like wolves to dogs which took tens of thousands of years and shortening it down to a few hundred.

Also i know im rambling but natural selection and selective breeding both work in similar ways in that the more successful traits will outlive the less productive given the right conditions or hindrances.

This poison you suggested would hinder the mushrooms survival for i find it very likely that after consuming some of the first mushies that came from your poisonous mutant you'd probably get sick and not eat them or at the very least conduct some experiments.

Cheers!

P.S. tell your friend that this is not a theory and that its mearly an unsupported hypothesis and that they should explore ways to discover the implications behind it by eating an growing the mushrooms with you.

BTW everyone who made comments about apples becoming poisonous: Apples as we know them in our markets are ALL clones. Every single apple seed planted has an EXTREMELY highly rate of mutation which makes apple trees an anomaly when it comes to genetic shift. (not the best example you could have used)

In fact apples already contain several of the prochemicals needed to naturally produce hydrogen cyanide which even in very small dosages is deadly. This cyanide compound can actually be produced naturally in the wild as well if yeast and fungi do not infest the rotting fruit body (apple) then the deadly agents will synthesize within the apple. i.e. poison apples.

I challenge anyone to go plant 100 apple trees and grow them tall and eat their apples and not have a single one that at the very least makes them vomit.

oh and BUMP!


--------------------
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Edited by TheMycMan (01/14/18 01:16 AM)

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Offlinegoodman1
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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: TheMycMan] * 1
    #24912868 - 01/14/18 07:47 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, although this is a damn old thread, I don't know why everyone was jumping to talk about how psilocybin isn't poisonous, ya we already know thats not what the OP was asking...

a genetic mutation that produces some kind of toxin isn't impossible, just highly unlikely. Should be more worried about the flu virus mutating and killing us all, as this is actually somewhat likely to happen at some point. And by the way even stamets used to talk about some kind of unidentified neuro-toxin in some strains of azurescens.

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Re: The theory of unavoidable mutation. [Re: HippySmoke] * 1
    #24913020 - 01/14/18 07:47 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
This thread rides the short bus

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