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OfflineNewHunter
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Registered: 04/04/02
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Gumby]
    #838912 - 08/23/02 07:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

when i first found some Panaeolinas i thought they were pann subs but they were a lot smaller then the ones you have and had much thinner stems. I think you have subbs but i have been wrong before with this mushroom


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: ]
    #838928 - 08/23/02 07:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You get a blue star for your microscopy work. I will send you a print as soon as you PM me w/ your addy. I will throw in an F+ print as well for your efforts.

Joshua


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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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OfflineGSAfarmer
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: NewHunter]
    #839228 - 08/23/02 09:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

joshua said that Panaeolinas is a synonym for Paneolus , so relitivly speeking they are in the same family


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GSAfarmer Joshua

"Don't live someone elses dream."..........GSAfarmer


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Anonymous

Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Joshua]
    #839606 - 08/24/02 02:51 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinejjbigbuds
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: ]
    #839805 - 08/24/02 06:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

[re: " I am planning on adding a lot to this forum by posting pictures of different spores under the microscope"]

This is great news, and let me be the first to thank you in advance for your efforts. Being somewhat new to the mushie community, I've been wondering why there isn't a more complete microscopic image library available on the web; it seems to be quite a patchwork with many holes.

It's good to know that someone with experience will be putting up micro-images from an optical scope. That will make the task of accurate identification a bit easier. Right now, my microscope doesn't do me a lot of good as most of the spores I see tend to look the same (i.e. smooth, elliptical, with a pore at one end). That rather generic description has held true for a number of species, including many you wouldn't want to eat! (e.g. Panaeolus semiovatus).

I once thought that using a microscope would be the end-all in quick, easy and accruate identification. I'm learning that the micro-features are simply additional, albeit invaluable, information. Perhaps micro-features are not more siginificant than the macro-features and spore colors of our forest-fungi-friends? In any case, the project you suggest will do a lot to eliminate mis-information and confusion.
Thanks,
JJBB



--------------------
Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.
- Jules de Gautier

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Anonymous

Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: jjbigbuds]
    #839848 - 08/24/02 07:10 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/22/99
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: GSAfarmer]
    #839893 - 08/24/02 07:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Panaeolina is not a synonym for Panaeolus. They are a serarate genera with four known species. Regrardless of the prints. If they are black they are a Panaeolus species, but I will bet that they are not Panaeolus subbalteatus.

mj


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OfflineGSAfarmer
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: ]
    #840277 - 08/24/02 11:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Mr. Mush I love the info you are bringing to the post. I would love to see the microscopic pics that you said you had. Do you think that there is a large enough difference with differnt varieties of Panaeolus to id from a microscope?.....................peace


--------------------

GSAfarmer Joshua

"Don't live someone elses dream."..........GSAfarmer


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: mjshroomer]
    #840424 - 08/24/02 01:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In Stamets book, "Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World," the page that refers to Panaeolus subbalteatus refers to it as Panaeolina subbalteatus also. Do you know why this is? I found slight bluing at the base of one of the specimens. What is your main reason for thinking these are not subbs? When I read through the description I find that everything matches. What would be a determining difference in IDing these as subbs or not?

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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OfflineStInvetroThomas
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Joshua]
    #840647 - 08/24/02 03:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I think they are subbs...based on the reddish stem, white underneath cap, cap color almost has a metallic sheen to it...instead of the more brown foenescii. They look like classic examples of moist new lawn subbs...which is the only place I have ever found subbs...if the print is black like you said...then you should be good to go.

BTW MJshroomer, I am very curious as to what other species of paneolina grow in North America...even eastern NA...because I think after much research that I have found some others than foenescii...way too big to be foenescii, anyways I will post some pics when I get a chance...cheers.


--------------------
"...I found dozens of single specimens.  That's what I call hunting.  There are only a few "good" hunters here, even now.  You're certainly in that group.  I would imagine if we hunted together we'd find our styles are similar."
- Mr. Mushrooms

RIP Matt, your friendship and your contributions to the world of fungi will be missed. Unfortunately we never got to hunt together.

St Thomas


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Joshua]
    #840676 - 08/24/02 03:43 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

the duplicate names are a product of improper placement of the species in the first place, offten a species will be placed in one genus and later be reclasified in another if it is found to belong but sometimes it takes a long time for everyone to catch on and some use outdated guides that where made before the change. i hope this clears that up.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/22/99
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Joshua]
    #840961 - 08/24/02 06:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)


Joshua, I see not reference on any of Pauls three pages where he refers to Panaeolus subbalteatus as Panaeolina subbalteatus.

John

P.s. The caps of P. foenisecii are always conical and never going flat and P. subb caps are never even under the gills intheir shapes and uslally flartter with aging, in borth young and older specimens.

Read Pauls description in his pictures of these shrooms

As fir the dufference. Subbs grow cepitosely to gregarious in Manure. Not lawns and never singularly like in your colelctions. The length of the mushroom and the skinniness of the specimens also indicate it is not a P. subb.

mj

Read my pm. I cn have those analysed in a laboratory in less than a week at Nestles or from Dr. Joseph Amirrati of the Univ of Washingtons Mycology Department. Amirrati wrote the large mPoisonous and edible shrooms of Canada books, 2 I think.

mj

Here is an image of panaeous castaneifolius by Jeremy Bigwood. This shows you that yor collection is not P. castors.



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OfflineDobie
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: mjshroomer]
    #840969 - 08/24/02 06:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

dude those look exactly like what i found the other day


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Offlineshroom666
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Registered: 08/22/02
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: mjshroomer]
    #840974 - 08/24/02 06:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Dude,
you just identified one of my mysterious pans that i`ve been finding.
Nice one.


--------------------
"They all float down here....they all float!!"
"Life is not an act, midgets are real fun"
"What you feel, it might not be"


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InvisibleGumby
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: mjshroomer]
    #841014 - 08/24/02 06:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I beg to differ MJ, I have very often found Pan subbs growing directly from lawns.

I do agree with you as far as Pan subs never having concial caps though. I've never ever seen a pan sub with a conical cap. The caps are always spherical, later oping to flat, and eventualy the edges will start to wave/curl.


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Anonymous

Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: GSAfarmer]
    #841163 - 08/24/02 08:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Gumby]
    #841169 - 08/24/02 08:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: mjshroomer]
    #841317 - 08/24/02 10:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I will send you a print. I plan on using a microscope at my University to look at the spores, and gill surface soon. I am sure the color of the prints is black. I have several prints that I have made. If they are all black this will indicate Paneaolus as the genera and eliminate Panaeolina as a sub-genera. Of the remaining Panaeolus species that display banded caps (P. acuminatus, P. fimicola) none resemble the specimens we picked. The cap size of the P. subbs description is also accurate to the mature caps of the specimens we picked.

As far as the habitat difference between the subbs and foens; these were picked from a disturbed environment. The grass was just laid down this spring. I bet the sawd was fertilised and high in nitrogen just as dung is. The mycelium network is most likely thriving below the grass layer in what ever underlayer they laid down. As you recognise, new environments are being created by man that are excellent environments for mushrooms to grow in that usually grow in disimilar wild

I was mistaken about the panaeolus/panaeolina reference, it was the foenisecii that is referred by both genera names. Stamets also states that one gentleman (Rolf Singer) preferred the sub-family definitions of Panaeoloideae (which include Panaeolina) and that he as well as Perez-Patraca, Guzman, and Georges M. Ola'h (who spent a lifetime studying this genera) consider Panaeolina to be a sub-genera classification at most and believe it may be unecessay.

For those interested in reading up on this, read pgs 67-68 in Stamets, "Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World".


If we found a new species I need to start considering names, perhaps Panaeolus Joshuaisdamansis .

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/22/99
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Joshua]
    #841566 - 08/25/02 03:16 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote from Joshua, "If they are all black this will indicate Paneaolus as the genera and eliminate Panaeolina as a sub-genera."

Joshua, there are four different species of Panaeolina. All four species have chocolate brown spores and a chocolate brown sporeprint, not Black.. If the spores are black it is a species of Panaeolus, not Panaeolina.

If you read Allen and Merlin's paper on Observations of Panaeolina foenisecii in the General sexction of this website you will see the original names of this species as posted below along side the four Panaeolina species.

HEre are the four species of Panaeolina, all which resemble each other macroscopically.

Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers. : Fr.) Maire [= Panaeolus foenisecii (Pers.: Fr.) K?hner; Psathyrella foenisecii (Pers. : Fr.) A.H. Sm.]

Panaeolina rhombisperma Hongo (about Gerhardt, 1996, this is a nom. excl.) [Horak (1980) considered this species as Crucispora rhombisperma (Hongo) Horak]

Panaeolina sagarae Hongo (about Gerhardt, 1996, this is a nom excl.)

Panaeolina microsperma Natarajan & Raman (= Panaeolina indica Sathe & J.T. Daniel; this is the true name about Gerhardt, 1996)

ere is the generic breakdown of the names of the species Panaeolina.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXxx

From Allen & Merlin, 1993 Yearbook for Ethnomedicine and the Study of Soncsciousness.

Over the past 75 years, P. foenisecii has been placed in various genera, including Psilocybe (Ricken 1915), Coprinus (Michael 1919) and Psathyrella (Smith 1972). Taxonomic reference to the genus and synonyms for the species include the following binomials listed according to their chronological taxonomic description.


Panaeolina R. Maire, Treb. Mus. Nat. Barcel. ser. Bot. 15:109 (1933).
Type species: Agaricus foenisecii Pers.:Fr., Syst. Mycol. 1:295 (1821).
Typonym: Psilocybe Fayod, Ann. Sci. Nat. (Bot.) 7(9):377 (1889).

Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire (Haymakers).

Agaricus foenisecii Pers.:Fr., Syst. Mycol. 1:295 (1821).
Psilocybe foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Quelet, Champ. Jura. Vosges 1:47 (1872).
Drosophila foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Quelet, Enchiridion:117 (1886).
Psathyra foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Bert, Bull. Soc. Mycol. Fr. 17:227 (1901).
Panaeolus foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Kuhner. Botaniste 17:187 (1926).
Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire, Treb. Mus. Cienc. Nat. Barcel. ser. Bot. 15:109 (1933).
Psathyrella foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) A. H. Smith, Mem. NY Bot. Gdn. 24:32 (1972).



Edited by mjshroomer (08/25/02 03:20 AM)


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Pan. Subb find in Oregon [Re: Joshua]
    #841719 - 08/25/02 06:56 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I regularly find subbs growing from sawd. However, they vary from the ones i find in horse fields. They usually have thinner stems than the ones growing from horse dung, tend to be smaller, and their are usually grow in thicker groups than the horse dung variety. Mature specimens do not have conical caps, and have a prominent band. Many of your specimens remind me of the subbs i find. Of course, there is a possibility of these being a new species. I'll do some prints next time my patches pop up.


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