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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics *DELETED*
#8367875 - 05/06/08 05:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Mad_Larkin
Reason for deletion: '
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8367890 - 05/06/08 05:37 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Here's my counterargument: the vast majority of psychedelics are not pleasant. Think of a borderline one, like nutmeg. Nutmeg really isn't that good. I've heard it described as "like being stoned, but more nauseas" . There must be thousands of psychedelics in nature that that could be described as "like being nauseas, but slightly stoned" or "like being incredibly tired, but also thirsty" or even "like dying, but without the relief of actually dying"
We just happen to use the few that are actually pleasant. If they were put here to make us happy, what were the other ones put here for?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: zouden]
#8367909 - 05/06/08 05:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thanks for your reply.
They weren't put here to "make us happy". They were put here to advance us spiritually and physically.
In nature things create an equilibrium, a little give and a little take on each side. Psychedelic plants want us to use them so they have someone to protect them, we want to use them because they are pleasurable to us.
I agree, there are a lot of exceptions to this rule, plenty of psychoactive plants that have an unpleasant bodyload but these plants are no different to poisons in the human-plant releationship. They are unpleasant to take, so we don't take them. Or take them with caution.
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ReoSpeedwagon153
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368049 - 05/06/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is true though that lots of plants and fungi that grow near psychoactive ones are also deadly poisonous.
I think that nature (evolution, genetic pre-programming, whatever) has given us a very complicated brain. We are swimming in brain chemicals that determine our moods, emotions, responses, and levels of perception.
These chemicals can be altered by the foods we eat, the activities we perform, and even the thoughts and feelings we have. There are lots of different kinds of these chemicals, that all have different, unique and combined effects.
Hallucinogenic plants are like nature's offer to us to fuck with that balance, to see what we can do. This is one of nature's methods of catalyzing adaptation and evolution.
Just as animals sometimes branch out to new foods to adapt to a new diet, we branch out to new alkaloid rich plants to alter the evolution of our brain chemistry.
This leads us to new levels of perception, new realms of consciousness, and new ways of surviving in the world. Even new patterns of evolution and adaptation.
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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Endlessness
Nexus Refugee
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368055 - 05/06/08 08:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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look, I do think there is an intimate connection between psychedelics and spiritual evolution..
BUT... your argument for it is very flawed
you say ´humans are meant to use because its pleasurable´.... just think about it.. mcdonalds and heroin are both pleasurable, for example, and yet they are very dangerous to your well being...
on the other side of the question, if you look at spiritual techniques and spiritual improvement, it is generally always associated not with pleasure, but with a certain renouncement/conscious suffering. Think for example: self-mortification techniques, chastity, yoga/hard positions, renouncing material wealth/going to caves, long periods of hard study, etc etc....
In the case of psychedelics, most notably ayahuasca, which is used for thousands of years as a spiritual tool, it is known that maybe the most important aspect of it is not pleasure, but what is called in portuguese as ´a peia´, or, ´the hardness´ (very loosely translated), which is the part that one vomits, sees his own mistakes, sees his own weaknesses, etc..
so if you want to make sense, I recommend you to start coming up with better arguments
Examples of arguments to research: the similarity of psychedelic active principles and brain neurotransmitters, presence of endogenous dmt, similarities between psychedelic experience reports and mystical experience descriptions, presence of substance use in early religious rites, insights and nobel prizes potentiated by psychedelic use, the importance of ´thinking outside the box´ for creative problem-solving and thus it´s evolutionary advantage, etc etc etc etc,
Edited by Endlessness (05/06/08 08:49 AM)
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Sparkabowl
Stranger
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"like dying, but without the relief of actually dying" lol @ ^
what about the thought that its just the 'plants' defense mechanism, when an animal goes to eat it, it trips balls and freaks out and never eats it again...humans are just fucking curious and crazy fucks who lick and eat everything >_<
and if it is for evolution, think if we feed enough of it to an animal it will force it to evolve?
...like a pokemon?!
Edited by Sparkabowl (05/06/08 08:22 AM)
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Aopocetx
Writer
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Sparkabowl]
#8368089 - 05/06/08 08:32 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't think that they were put here for us to use them spiritually, but I think we can and have used them for that purpose.
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Gavn
Im a Fun Gi
Registered: 01/22/08
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Aopocetx]
#8368109 - 05/06/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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though i agree with your theory.. if it were completely true that they wanted us to eat them, them dirty mofos would be growing all throughout my backyard haha
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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Gavn]
#8368133 - 05/06/08 08:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Cheers for the feedback guys.
Quote:
Gavn said: though i agree with your theory.. if it were completely true that they wanted us to eat them, them dirty mofos would be growing all throughout my backyard haha
Haha, perhaps they don't grow in your backyard but I'm sure you don't have to go far to find mushrooms?
Quote:
Endlessness said: look, I do think there is an intimate connection between psychedelics and spiritual evolution..
BUT... your argument for it is very flawed
you say ´humans are meant to use because its pleasurable´.... just think about it.. mcdonalds and heroin are both pleasurable, for example, and yet they are very dangerous to your well being...
on the other side of the question, if you look at spiritual techniques and spiritual improvement, it is generally always associated not with pleasure, but with a certain renouncement/conscious suffering. Think for example: self-mortification techniques, chastity, yoga/hard positions, renouncing material wealth/going to caves, etc etc....
In the case of psychedelics, most notably ayahuasca, which is used for thousands of years as a spiritual tool, it is known that maybe the most important aspect of it is not pleasure, but what is called in portuguese as ´a peia´, or, ´the hardness´ (very loosely translated), which is the part that one vomit, sees his own mistakes, sees his own weaknesses, etc..
so you should start thinking of better arguments (such as the similarity of psychedelic active principles and brain neurotransmitters, presence of endogenous dmt, similarities between psychedelic experience reports and mystical experience descriptions, presence of substance use in early religious rites, insights and nobel prizes potentiated by psychedelic use, the importance of ´thinking outside the box´ for creative problem-solving, etc etc etc etc,)
What I was getting at is that the pleasure side is natures way of encouraging us to use the plant (mcdonnalds and heroin don't occur naturally ((well, opium does)). I'm talking about on a very base level, natures way of pshyically attracting us to the plant. Of course there are other reasons we use these plants, obviously the most important is mind-expansion but I'm talking on a very basic physical level that all animals can appreciate.
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ReoSpeedwagon153
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368348 - 05/06/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your argument is flawed on the basis of the existence of the deadly plant poisons.
The 'alkaloids as defense mechanism' argument is also flawed, because there are many plant alkaloids that are medically beneficial to humanity that carry the same kinds of adverse effects (bitterness, nausea, hallucinations) that one would assume an animal would avoid.
Also, plants may be more welcoming to being eaten by animals than we think. I tend to think a lot of species interaction isn't necessarily based on competition as we have always assumed. There are a lot more evolutionary favors being carried out than we may realize.
Plants offer us their fruit for seed dispersal, so perhaps they have beneficial (and psychedelic) alkaloids as another symbiotic offer. We will provide what they need to live, and spread their species, while they heal our sick and alter our consciousness.
This kind of symbiosis, or dependance on animal life is commonplace in the vegetable kingdom. Seed dispersal is often aided by animal locomotion, and many important kinds of pollination are performed by strong relationships between insects and plants.
It seems clear that something like this is happening between plants and humans.
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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Primal Glitch
literally just vibing
Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 4,855
Loc: 🌎
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so it's like having sex with nature?
I like that
by the way, great avatar Sparkabowl
-------------------- make the changa you wish to see in the world gnome sayin'?
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fapjack
Title
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368431 - 05/06/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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If I had to fight for my life every single day, the last thing I would want to do is be tripping my face off. Also, if someone put them on the earth, why did we get stuck with shitty natural psychedelics like mushrooms and baby woodrose seeds when good ones like LSD and MDMA could have been put here?
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stefan
work in progress
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368591 - 05/06/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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how about coincidence..
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fapjack]
#8368703 - 05/06/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fapjack said: If I had to fight for my life every single day, the last thing I would want to do is be tripping my face off. Also, if someone put them on the earth, why did we get stuck with shitty natural psychedelics like mushrooms and baby woodrose seeds when good ones like LSD and MDMA could have been put here?
lol man wtf
-------------------- I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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LSDreamer
Materialist
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: John Smith]
#8368707 - 05/06/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Methamphetamine occurs in nature. 'Nuff said.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: stefan]
#8368709 - 05/06/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, this is a flawed argument. You're only looking at the two or three natural psychedelics that are relatively safe, and then using these as evidence to claim that they were put here just for us. What about the thousands if not millions of plants that have no pharmacological effect, are poisonous, or are addictive? The presence of the poppy, datura, and even the acacia plant that contains methamphetamine provides a convincing argument that natural psychedelics exist merely because of our chance discovery thousands of years ago that chomping on a mushroom leads to a mystical experience--the same discovery thousands of years ago that eating a datura plant led to insanity/death has similarly caused us to steer clear from poisonous plants.
Selectively choosing a sample and then saying that because this sample is relatively safe, it was therefore "meant to be," is faulty logic.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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recycledsoul
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: deCypher]
#8368739 - 05/06/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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pyschadelics are good for the begginer to open them up if they have been conditioned to a very limited view of reality as most of us had. but after a while, we can become dependent on them for spirituality and not really get there ourselves. so i feel they are neither good nor bad. meditation will get you to the same place psychadelics do without any side effects and you dont have to search and find something illegal which generally brings paranoia(negative). if you take a drug to get you high the drug is the master. you can get "high" yourself. another thing with pyschadelics is we gain a temporary state of mind close to enlightenment and we gain much knowledge and we think we are very very wise, even once coming down after the effects fade. then the mind has gained so much insight it believes it is very smart- we think we are very smart because our minds have gained some insight. thus we begin to listen to our mind and identify ourselves with it and this is the whole opposite of the pyschadelic experience. so keep listening always to life, not your thoughts. you have thoughts, some of them may be helpful, most are not.. most are not even your thoughts.
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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Shamanintraining
Junkhead
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Quote:
ReoSpeedwagon153 said: The 'alkaloids as defense mechanism' argument is also flawed, because there are many plant alkaloids that are medically beneficial to humanity that carry the same kinds of adverse effects (bitterness, nausea, hallucinations) that one would assume an animal would avoid.
I wouldn't say that it is flawed due to the fact that humans can use them. Humans are the only animal that has evolved to the point of higher thinking, at least on this planet. Mushrooms can aid in the hindrance of cluster headaches, but do the mushrooms know that? Any other animal that doesn't understand the ability of a mushroom to treat cluster headaches would probably avoid the mushrooms due to being frightened of a trip. Other animals don't look at the colors and view them as beautiful nor do they think about their place in the universe. Chances are the animal will fear for their life and never eat that mushroom, or any other hallucinogenic plant, again.
In the end I believe that a hallucinogen substance is one of the greatest defenses. Chances are an animal wont eat a hallucinogenic mushrooms more than once, instead they will eat the other mushrooms. In the absence of predators the mushroom will flourish. This isn't just for mushrooms, but any hallucinogenic plant.
-------------------- "Leave your mind alone and just get high"
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soundtrance
di actyl more fien
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368789 - 05/06/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad_Larkin said: I think psychedelics were put on the Earth to speed up our evolution. The reason psychedelics are pleasurable to use is because we are SUPPOSED to use them.
The things we humans must do to be healthy, survive and evolve are made to be pleasureable by nature, so humans keep doing those things.
Eating Drinking Sex Breathing Sleeping Relaxing
These are all pleasurable activities which keep us regular and ensure we survive as ideviduals and as a species.
Most psychedelics give you a pleasurable euphoric high, the only reason for this sciencifically is so that humans will use them.
It works the other way round too. If humans want to use a plant they will make sure that the plant is healthy and survives so they can use it. Ensuring that the plant survives as a species too.
Even if a human is not attracted to the mind altering properties of psychedelics they can appreciate the euphoria they give.
I don't think that the effects of certain plants on our mind and bodies exist by happenstance. It is MEANT to be.
-------------------- "Our parents found themselves, we are finding each other"
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fushock
Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8369815 - 05/06/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think psychedelics were put on the Earth to speed up our evolution. The reason psychedelics are pleasurable to use is because we are SUPPOSED to use them.
Thats cool. Personally, I think evolution creates such an amazing range of life forms and chemicals that some of those chemicals will have strange and awesome reactions with our extremely complicated minds.
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LSDaytripper
Believer
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
#8369892 - 05/06/08 05:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I honestly think that natural psychedelics just developed psychedelic qualities as a defense mechanism in nature, and modern humans interpret their defense mechanism as something much more, because our brains are so much more advanced. I think this is especially true for mushrooms, more so than any other naturally growing psychedelic. If you look at the evolutionary process, so many plants and animals have changed and adapted in nature (slowly, over long periods of time) to better suit their environment. It all goes back to Darwin and Natural Selection. In the early days, before humans were so dense in numbers, mushrooms had to defend themselves against animals, and that was about it. I think that any animal that eats a psychedelic would generally avoid it later, because the mind altering effects of the psychedelic would probably be perceived as 'bad' by most animals. This was a way of warding off predators.
However, when humans got a hold of them, our complex brain structure interpreted a 'trip' as an entirely different thing. I'm sure that any animal with a simpler brain would experience a much, much different trip than a human. It would probably impair the ability of the animal to survive in the wild, which is why animals would avoid it after eating it once.
Just some thoughts.
Now, if your saying that humans were designed to be compatible with tripping, it is pretty much impossible to tell. However, I wouldn't bet on it, seeing as how our early forms were much more like primitive animals. My bet is that if one of the very first humans ate some psychedelic mushrooms, they wouldn't get as many of the positive effects as we do today. Today, we know what psychedelics do, and because of our more stable conscious, we are able to get past the experience and look at it as something more than "Bad, no want eat!"
Keep in mind I'm not sure about any of this. This is just how I think of it. No way to tell for sure.
-------------------- ***** (10:42:46 PM): This is so strange ***** (10:42:53 PM): Becuase I feel that I am very altered ***** (10:42:57 PM): But at the same exact time ***** (10:43:28 PM): I am closer to the real me, the real me who decides who I am, the entire me
Edited by LSDaytripper (05/06/08 05:52 PM)
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDaytripper]
#8369923 - 05/06/08 05:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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You can be fear based and die off. You can be love based and live forever. It's like Dune: "Fear is the mind killer..." Psychedelics force you to choose. It is accelerated learning and therefore difficult. Just existing becomes difficult when tripping uncontrollably.
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andrewss
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDaytripper]
#8369931 - 05/06/08 06:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LSDaytripper said: I honestly think that natural psychedelics just developed psychedelic qualities as a defense mechanism in nature, and modern humans interpret their defense mechanism as something much more, because our brains are so much more advanced. I think this is especially true for mushrooms, more so than any other naturally growing psychedelic. If you look at the evolutionary process, so many plants and animals have changed and adapted in nature (slowly, over long periods of time) to better suit their environment. It all goes back to Darwin and Natural Selection. In the early days, before humans were so dense in numbers, mushrooms had to defend themselves against animals, and that was about it. I think that any animal that eats a psychedelic would generally avoid it later, because the mind altering effects of the psychedelic would probably be perceived as 'bad' by most animals. This was a way of warding off predators.
However, when humans got a hold of them, our complex brain structure interpreted a 'trip' as an entirely different thing. I'm sure that any animal with a simpler brain would experience a much, much different trip than a human. It would probably impair the ability of the animal to survive in the wild, which is why animals would avoid it after eating it once.
Just some thoughts.
Now, if your saying that humans were designed to be compatible with tripping, it is pretty much impossible to tell. However, I wouldn't bet on it, seeing as how our early forms were much more like primitive animals. My bet is that if one of the very first humans ate some psychedelic mushrooms, they wouldn't get as many of the positive effects as we do today. Today, we know what psychedelics do, and because of our more stable conscious, we are able to get past the experience and look at it as something more than "Bad, no want eat!"
Keep in mind I'm not sure about any of this. This is just how I think of it. No way to tell for sure.
Yeah, it only seems natural to assume that psilocybe mushrooms create the active alkaloids as a defense mechanism, just like any other defenses in nature. It is just funny how certain compounds are created like that, how the hell do things like that evolve? It is like the organism that created them had a premonition of the effects.
THC, Psilocybin, etc... all these compounds are amazing, I see the rational explanation for their existence, I just dont see how the organisms that developed them came to be aware of the effects of their defenses. Its not like these chemicals are akin to more obvious defenses, like a turtle with a shell, or claws, etc etc. I dont understand how a theory would develop with much coherency about the orgin of these chemicals. Confusing stuff. It is almost more apparent that there is something absurd about them. One could point to divine creation, or perhaps the effectiveness of poisons and defenses, even by basic life forms can be evaluated by a more statistical way, like perhaps different fungus over the years conjured up compounds and by the passing of time came to realize that their fruit bodies were more successful by certain ones. Still, pretty crazy to come to an understanding of this cognition.
No doubt these drugs would probably produce panic and the desired "STAY AWAY" reaction to higher life forms, its funny that somewhere in human development certain cultures revered the profound effects produced by psilocybin, and related psychedelics that are found in nature.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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fushock
Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
#8369979 - 05/06/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yeah, it only seems natural to assume that psilocybe mushrooms create the active alkaloids as a defense mechanism, just like any other defenses in nature. It is just funny how certain compounds are created like that, how the hell do things like that evolve? It is like the organism that created them had a premonition of the effects.
Perhaps it isn't a defense mechanism. Perhaps its a survival/spreading mechanism. And we are the carriers.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
#8369998 - 05/06/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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^ Heh... thats one way to look at it, maybe the early psilocybe species dreamed of one day being vastly indoor cultivated by silly apes!
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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DimensionX
King of Birds
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
#8370029 - 05/06/08 06:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.
To ward off animals it has to be a very clear and instantaneous reaction, because they don't have the ability to logically deduce where the effects came from like we do.
It is amazing how perfectly these chemicals interact with our brains, its like a beautiful symphony. It could be coincidence, but who knows maybe its something more interesting than that.
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andrewss
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
#8370049 - 05/06/08 06:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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^ Perhaps, but if an animal scarfed down a bunch of psilocybe mushrooms I bet it would be pretty messed up pretty quickly, probably throw up and stuff. Perhaps even get killed from the intense inebriation because it is too fucked up to defend itself or something?
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Shamanintraining
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
#8370054 - 05/06/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said: I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.
Most poisons do not occur instantly either.
-------------------- "Leave your mind alone and just get high"
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LSDreamer
Materialist
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
#8370059 - 05/06/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Many animals seek out altered states, including psychedelic ones.
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soundtrance
di actyl more fien
Registered: 08/05/07
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDreamer]
#8370080 - 05/06/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LSDreamer said: Many animals seek out altered states, including psychedelic ones.
yeah ive read about this. i hear its a natural instinct to reach altered stated. lemurs trip off centapeeds and reindeer eat mushrooms.
-------------------- "Our parents found themselves, we are finding each other"
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDreamer]
#8370083 - 05/06/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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^ Hrmmm, which animals have been shown to look after psychedelics? I know that animals have been seen seeking out fermented stuff for alcohol.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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DimensionX
King of Birds
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Quote:
Shamanintraining said:
Quote:
DimensionX said: I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.
Most poisons do not occur instantly either.
Thats a good point. But it makes me think that poisons may not be the best defence mechanism against animals, expect for the fact that it may kill the animal and prevent them from eating it again, but this is a different tactic to a hallucinogenic defence. Ive known animals to do things which make them sick over and over again, i think its because of their inability to deduce what is causing the sickness.
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soundtrance
di actyl more fien
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
#8370099 - 05/06/08 06:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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andrewss said: ^ Hrmmm, which animals have been shown to look after psychedelics? I know that animals have been seen seeking out fermented stuff for alcohol.
all i can remeber are lemurs and reindeer. the lemurs agitate the centapeeds and they produce some chemical on their skin that make the lemur trip when they lick it.
-------------------- "Our parents found themselves, we are finding each other"
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
#8370114 - 05/06/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said:
Quote:
Shamanintraining said:
Quote:
DimensionX said: I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.
Most poisons do not occur instantly either.
Thats a good point. But it makes me think that poisons may not be the best defence mechanism against animals, expect for the fact that it may kill the animal and prevent them from eating it again, but this is a different tactic to a hallucinogenic defence. Ive known animals to do things which make them sick over and over again, i think its because of their inability to deduce what is causing the sickness.
But perhaps the point of psilocybin would be to inebriate the animal to the point that it doesnt ACTUALLY kill them, but in a competitive natural world, being that fucked up puts them in a very vulnerable state in which they could be preyed upon.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Mr.Al
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: soundtrance]
#8370138 - 05/06/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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If you are fine with taking a drug and risking death (from wild animals, some unforeseen metabolic "glitch", etc, then your internal value system supports learning even over and above the continued safety of the physical body. Evolve past the physical vessel.
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DimensionX
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
#8370178 - 05/06/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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It could have that effect. But the plant would be rolling the dice a bit. Most of the time it would be like if you went out into the woods and ate a lot of mushrooms or acid. Its possible that you could wander off somewhere and get killed by an animal or walk off a cliff. But this would be bad luck and wouldn't happen most of the time.
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Mr.Al
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
#8370281 - 05/06/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Being that psilocybin is so chemically similar to D.M.T. I would surmise that the body freaks out and assumes that it is dying. If you are able to peace yourself out that means that death no longer frightens you. Not being afraid of dying leads to overcoming body-identification. No body identification leads to some new kind of existence. Thus, drug taking is the primary causation of evolution.
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tyler_0_durden
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
#8370318 - 05/06/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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The purpose of mushrooms on this planet is to keep the Earth alive and healthy. Their purpose in nature is to decompose waste products to allow for more nutrients so lots of flora can grow, and thus allow fauna to survive in tandem. Because some mushrooms have hallucinogens that reveal the beauty of nature when enjoyed outside, they have that added depth that shows us, as humans, that we must not destroy nature; that it is vitally important to us.
This is why we get so much out of our trips, too...in my opinion. It's nature's way of saying "Don't fuck with me, you need me to survive".
That's what I think..
-------------------- "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." --Max Planck
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asknoquestions
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mr.Al]
#8370357 - 05/06/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Uh. There are a lot of serious misconceptions about evolution here.
A defense mechanism/poison exists in plants for the single reason that it helped the plant survive. This could take many forms, in different contexts.
There is no forethought to evolution. Two plants randomly develop chemicals in their tissues. One is inert to most predators, so the plant's survival is unaffected. The other plant's chemical causes death or impairment to animals and is thus better able to survive. Over time the poisonous plant tends to dominate the gene pool. Or not. It's all about how a random mutation affects the survival of a creature in a particular environment.
For instance, caffeine in coffee is a appetite suppressant. Insects/animals that eat it tend to stop eating sooner than in other plants. In humans it also causes a stimulant effect that we find pleasant. This is unrelated to it's primary reason for representation in the plants.
Edited by asknoquestions (05/06/08 07:33 PM)
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tyler_0_durden
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: asknoquestions]
#8370507 - 05/06/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Unfortunately, the theory of evolution itself is rather flawed, at least, for now.
How is an animal able to choose what mutations benefit them? I know it relates to the ecosystem and how it interacts with other animals/plants, but think about it.
Also, we have never observed any genetic mutations in the entire human population that have had any benefit, since we've had knowledge of DNA's existance. The only mutations we've seen are in birth defects, and most of them aren't very pretty. They don't seem very advantageous to the human that bears them, and those humans that do suffer from said mutations usually are sterile.
Hopefully someday soon we can actually observe an advantageous trait arising in an animal as it's happening. Otherwise, we really are clueless as to how our world really works. We say birds evolved from dinosaurs, but how come we can't find any fossil records of birds with scales? Surely you would think there would be a "middle" species to give us evidence that yes, indeed there has been evolution since the dawn of time.
But, we haven't found them yet.
And of course, as for the other end of the spectrum, we also have not readily observed divine intervention, either.
So who knows??
-------------------- "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." --Max Planck
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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: asknoquestions]
#8370581 - 05/06/08 08:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think a plant producing a chemical that makes an animal trip as a "defense machanism" wouldn't be the most effective way of deterring predators.
Poisons, irritants, spines, tough skin. These are all much more effective things to deter a predator, as DimensionX said the animal might not even associate tripping out with having eaten the plant. For the plant, it's kind of an evolutionary dead-end.
Despite my theory being pretty flawed, I still think theres a definate element of fact. Nothing in nature is there by chance, everything serves a purpose or else evolution would have eliminated it as useless.
While it is true some entheogens cause unpleasant physical effects the fact that a lot of them create pleasant physical effects - and not just psychic effects - is pretty telling. Few other plants acctually encourage something to eat it by making it pleasurable for the consumer.
Also, another thought. While I was typing.
Psilocybe mushrooms do not normally give nausea, but a mescaline cactus will. Maybe because you have to kill the cactus to use it but the mushroom mycelium will remain reletively unscathed if not overpicked. I can think of exceptions to this idea but I'm just getting it out there so we can build on it.
Edited by Mad_Larkin (05/06/08 08:11 PM)
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Akira
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8370777 - 05/06/08 08:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad_Larkin said: I think psychedelics were put on the Earth to speed up our evolution. The reason psychedelics are pleasurable to use is because we are SUPPOSED to use them.
Gay men could make the same argument. The only reason it feels so good to take a penis up the butthole is becuase we are supposed to. And all along we straight men thought we were doing things the natural way..:(
-------------------- Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek) Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek "Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe." We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: tyler_0_durden]
#8371172 - 05/06/08 10:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
tyler_0_durden said: Unfortunately, the theory of evolution itself is rather flawed, at least, for now.
How is an animal able to choose what mutations benefit them? I know it relates to the ecosystem and how it interacts with other animals/plants, but think about it.
Also, we have never observed any genetic mutations in the entire human population that have had any benefit, since we've had knowledge of DNA's existance. The only mutations we've seen are in birth defects, and most of them aren't very pretty. They don't seem very advantageous to the human that bears them, and those humans that do suffer from said mutations usually are sterile.
Hopefully someday soon we can actually observe an advantageous trait arising in an animal as it's happening. Otherwise, we really are clueless as to how our world really works. We say birds evolved from dinosaurs, but how come we can't find any fossil records of birds with scales? Surely you would think there would be a "middle" species to give us evidence that yes, indeed there has been evolution since the dawn of time.
But, we haven't found them yet.
And of course, as for the other end of the spectrum, we also have not readily observed divine intervention, either.
So who knows??
I don't really want to turn this thread into an evolution debate, but you said a few things that I feel I have to address. You asked how an animal is able to choose what mutations benefit them. The whole point of evolution is that the animal does NOT choose what mutations benefit them, let alone choose what mutations they experience at all. Genetic mutations happen wholly randomly, and it's a matter of pure chance what variations the offspring inherit via mutation. The members of a species who happen to experience a beneficial mutation will have a slightly higher chance of surviving or making more offspring than those who did not experience the beneficial mutation, and so in the long run those offspring with the mutation will have a higher chance of contributing to the gene pool and in so doing pass on the mutation.
You sound like you're implying that we've never observed an advantageous trait arising in an animal as it's happening. There have been many recorded instances of this. The story of the peppered moth in England that was predominantly light-colored prior to the Industrial revolution that evolved to a darker color after the revolution is the usual example--ordinarily, light colored moths blended in with white foliage surround the country-side, but with the advent of industrialization and factories pouring soot into the air, burning coal and soot rapidly blanketed the agriculture, causing light colored moths to die off as they were easily visible to predators. Those with a chance dark color mutation were more likely to survive and reproduce, thus ensuring that within but a few short generations, the peppered moth had almost completely reversed its coloring.
If you want a more common example, take antibacterial soap. The reason why a lot of people are cautioning not to use this sort of stuff too frequently is because the super-bacteria that are resistant to the soap due to chance mutation end up breeding out of control as all their competition is dying off. Evolution in action.
As for humans, that's another matter entirely. With our modern medical technology and huge improvements in hospital treatment and aging prevention, we are able to circumvent evolution of our own bodies in favor of fancy tools and gizmos designed to increase our survival. If we didn't have hospitals or medical care, odds are is that we'd see beneficial mutations popping up over the course of our thousands of years-long species lifespan. However, because it's now the quality of tools at your disposal that determines survival, and condoms make offspring a choice rather than a natural byproduct, we've essentially stopped evolution at the human level.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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zouden
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: deCypher]
#8371268 - 05/06/08 10:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was about to post and say that mushrooms DON'T benefit from us eating them, but then I realised something... they benefit from other animals eating them. They ingest the spores, which pass through their digestive system and end up deposited in neat piles of their favourite food source. What an excellent system.
Humans aren't meant to use psychedelics - cows are!
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Gavn
Im a Fun Gi
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8371558 - 05/07/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Gavn said: though i agree with your theory.. if it were completely true that they wanted us to eat them, them dirty mofos would be growing all throughout my backyard haha
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Haha, perhaps they don't grow in your backyard but I'm sure you don't have to go far to find mushrooms?
if only i knew where
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Gavn]
#8371615 - 05/07/08 12:39 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think a more meaningful and logical rephrasing would read:
"Psychedelics are MEANT to be used by humans."
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
#8371788 - 05/07/08 02:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think it's kind of obvious that psychedelics played some role in the evolution of modern human. All of us have ancestors who used psychedelic drugs; this much is obvious, if you've done any reading on the history of it. Witches in Europe, the great philosophers of Greece, the forefathers of Eastern introspection, and shamans in Africa and pre-Columbian America were all using this stuff, and it's no coincidence. It's modern culture that has put a muzzle on this stuff, and again, it's no coincidence. We wouldn't be where we are today if we had never left the introspective, spiritual, shamanic world of our past. And that's why we need it now more than ever.
It's up to us to rediscover the Gaian science our ancestors wielded, and in spite of prohibition, things are really coming along.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (05/07/08 02:39 AM)
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04281969
Hobbyist
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 1,406
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Shut up.
Don't think.
Do your job.
Consume.
That is all.
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Boots
Disenchanted
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
#8372120 - 05/07/08 07:35 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Interesting theory but it's just that: a theory.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8372131 - 05/07/08 07:38 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think my opinion has been voiced already, but I love thinky drugs. Even piracetam, which is psychedelic only in the way it can help you further your mental faculties. Psychedelics can be pleasurable, because it's so nice to have some of the reality filters we have so we can get along and do work removed now and then, allowing us further insight into the nature of things.
--------------------
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asknoquestions
Stranger
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: deCypher]
#8372199 - 05/07/08 08:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't really want to turn this thread into an evolution debate, but you said a few things that I feel I have to address. You asked how an animal is able to choose what mutations benefit them. The whole point of evolution is that the animal does NOT choose what mutations benefit them, let alone choose what mutations they experience at all. Genetic mutations happen wholly randomly, and it's a matter of pure chance what variations the offspring inherit via mutation. The members of a species who happen to experience a beneficial mutation will have a slightly higher chance of surviving or making more offspring than those who did not experience the beneficial mutation, and so in the long run those offspring with the mutation will have a higher chance of contributing to the gene pool and in so doing pass on the mutation.
You sound like you're implying that we've never observed an advantageous trait arising in an animal as it's happening. There have been many recorded instances of this. The story of the peppered moth in England that was predominantly light-colored prior to the Industrial revolution that evolved to a darker color after the revolution is the usual example--ordinarily, light colored moths blended in with white foliage surround the country-side, but with the advent of industrialization and factories pouring soot into the air, burning coal and soot rapidly blanketed the agriculture, causing light colored moths to die off as they were easily visible to predators. Those with a chance dark color mutation were more likely to survive and reproduce, thus ensuring that within but a few short generations, the peppered moth had almost completely reversed its coloring.
If you want a more common example, take antibacterial soap. The reason why a lot of people are cautioning not to use this sort of stuff too frequently is because the super-bacteria that are resistant to the soap due to chance mutation end up breeding out of control as all their competition is dying off. Evolution in action.
As for humans, that's another matter entirely. With our modern medical technology and huge improvements in hospital treatment and aging prevention, we are able to circumvent evolution of our own bodies in favor of fancy tools and gizmos designed to increase our survival. If we didn't have hospitals or medical care, odds are is that we'd see beneficial mutations popping up over the course of our thousands of years-long species lifespan. However, because it's now the quality of tools at your disposal that determines survival, and condoms make offspring a choice rather than a natural byproduct, we've essentially stopped evolution at the human level.
Thank you.
There is no guiding force to evolution. The only determining factor is if the animal survives or not. That's it.
It is most certainly possible for a trait to serve no purpose and to survive into future generations.
In fact, there is an example of a beneficial mutation in humans. Sickle Cell Anemia is common in malarial zones. Most people have it have a "weak" or half version that doesn't kill. This mutation of the blood happens to make them much more resistant to malaria. If two of these people have children then there is a chance that the child will have full-blown sickle cell, and will more than likely die. Overall, it's an advantage though.
Additionally, we do have fossils of feathered flying dinosaurs.
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zouden
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: asknoquestions]
#8373865 - 05/07/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
In fact, there is an example of a beneficial mutation in humans. Sickle Cell Anemia is common in malarial zones. Most people have it have a "weak" or half version that doesn't kill. This mutation of the blood happens to make them much more resistant to malaria. If two of these people have children then there is a chance that the child will have full-blown sickle cell, and will more than likely die. Overall, it's an advantage though.
It's the same with Cystic Fibrosis and resistance to the bubonic plague.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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ReoSpeedwagon153
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Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: asknoquestions]
#8376630 - 05/08/08 07:07 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
asknoquestions said:
Quote:
Thank you.
There is no guiding force to evolution. The only determining factor is if the animal survives or not. That's it.
Sorry about continuing this debate about evolution, but where is the original topic going here anyway?
My, that is quite a sweeping statement about what I was under the impression was still a matter of research.
We don't know what possesses DNA to try out multitudinous life forms by seemingly random mutation.
Was the first single celled organism a random occurrance? Did the self replicating molecule that randomly arose from complex amino acids in a primordial soup also encase itself in a cell wall with cytoplasm and flagellae based on its own code which it just randomly made?
Or is there something more complex going on here?
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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zouden
Neuroscientist
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Loc: Australia
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DNA doesn't "try out multitudinous life forms by seemingly random mutation", the mutations just happen because DNA replication is imperfect.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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recycledsoul
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: zouden]
#8376665 - 05/08/08 07:31 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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if you cut part of the cactus off it still grows i think pyshcadelics are a blessing, a tool to help us regain awareness and get in touch with our true selves. but keeping using them habitually or even continually is really useless if you are aware that you can meditate and reach deeper, higher states
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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ReoSpeedwagon153
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Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: zouden]
#8376695 - 05/08/08 07:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm just saying that the mutations may only seem random, or that's just the only way we have to understand them right now.
Mutation seem to lead to 'preconcieved' forms in animals and plants. The mutations seem random, but their eventual evolutionary changes really aren't.
Yes, natural selection is one way to glibly answer this problem, but I think that only provides a partial answer. There is much more going on with the adaptation, evolution, and diversification of life forms than simple random mutation and natural selection.
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
ReoSpeedwagon153 said: There is much more going on with the adaptation, evolution, and diversification of life forms than simple random mutation and natural selection.
Uh huh. Care to elaborate?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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LSDreamer
Materialist
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: deCypher]
#8377072 - 05/08/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Evolution being a random, unguided force isn't a mark against it. Quantum physics provides a very compelling argument for the existence of an almost limitless number of unique universes. Now, think how big a universe is. With an incredibly large number of universes, and a an incredibly large number of galaxies, stars, planets, etc. the idea that we sprang into existence via random chance doesn't seem so far-fetched.
--------------------
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LSDaytripper
Believer
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: 04281969]
#8377766 - 05/08/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
04281969 said: Shut up.
Don't think.
Do your job.
Consume.
That is all.
But you have to admit it is kind of fun to think and hypothesize about this kind of stuff. And in my opinion, the best part is that we will never know the true answer. Unless you believe in a life after death where all the secrets of life are revealed to you, or something. But for now it's just fun to guess, even if we're all completely wrong.
-------------------- ***** (10:42:46 PM): This is so strange ***** (10:42:53 PM): Becuase I feel that I am very altered ***** (10:42:57 PM): But at the same exact time ***** (10:43:28 PM): I am closer to the real me, the real me who decides who I am, the entire me
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04281969
Hobbyist
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDaytripper]
#8378165 - 05/08/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Obey your corporate masters or you will be removed from society.
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ReoSpeedwagon153
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: deCypher]
#8382122 - 05/09/08 02:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
ReoSpeedwagon153 said: There is much more going on with the adaptation, evolution, and diversification of life forms than simple random mutation and natural selection.
Uh huh. Care to elaborate?
Sorry, I'm not going to speculate into things I don't necessarily know about.
I just happen to know that there is more to everything than we can easily detect.
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDaytripper]
#8382389 - 05/09/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
LSDaytripper said:
Quote:
04281969 said: Shut up.
Don't think.
Do your job.
Consume.
That is all.
But you have to admit it is kind of fun to think and hypothesize about this kind of stuff. And in my opinion, the best part is that we will never know the true answer. Unless you believe in a life after death where all the secrets of life are revealed to you, or something. But for now it's just fun to guess, even if we're all completely wrong.
The best part of life is the uncertainty. It'd be fucking boring if all the answers were right there before you.
Thinking is great.
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