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OfflineLSDaytripper
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
    #8369892 - 05/06/08 05:49 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I honestly think that natural psychedelics just developed psychedelic qualities as a defense mechanism in nature, and modern humans interpret their defense mechanism as something much more, because our brains are so much more advanced. I think this is especially true for mushrooms, more so than any other naturally growing psychedelic. If you look at the evolutionary process, so many plants and animals have changed and adapted in nature (slowly, over long periods of time) to better suit their environment. It all goes back to Darwin and Natural Selection. In the early days, before humans were so dense in numbers, mushrooms had to defend themselves against animals, and that was about it. I think that any animal that eats a psychedelic would generally avoid it later, because the mind altering effects of the psychedelic would probably be perceived as 'bad' by most animals. This was a way of warding off predators.

However, when humans got a hold of them, our complex brain structure interpreted a 'trip' as an entirely different thing. I'm sure that any animal with a simpler brain would experience a much, much different trip than a human. It would probably impair the ability of the animal to survive in the wild, which is why animals would avoid it after eating it once.



Just some thoughts.


Now, if your saying that humans were designed to be compatible with tripping, it is pretty much impossible to tell. However, I wouldn't bet on it, seeing as how our early forms were much more like primitive animals. My bet is that if one of the very first humans ate some psychedelic mushrooms, they wouldn't get as many of the positive effects as we do today. Today, we know what psychedelics do, and because of our more stable conscious, we are able to get past the experience and look at it as something more than "Bad, no want eat!"


Keep in mind I'm not sure about any of this. This is just how I think of it. No way to tell for sure.


--------------------
***** (10:42:46 PM): This is so strange
***** (10:42:53 PM): Becuase I feel that I am very altered
***** (10:42:57 PM): But at the same exact time
***** (10:43:28 PM): I am closer to the real me, the real me who decides who I am, the entire me

Edited by LSDaytripper (05/06/08 05:52 PM)

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDaytripper]
    #8369923 - 05/06/08 05:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You can be fear based and die off. You can be love based and live forever. It's like Dune: "Fear is the mind killer..." Psychedelics force you to choose. It is accelerated learning and therefore difficult. Just existing becomes difficult when tripping uncontrollably.

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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDaytripper]
    #8369931 - 05/06/08 06:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LSDaytripper said:
I honestly think that natural psychedelics just developed psychedelic qualities as a defense mechanism in nature, and modern humans interpret their defense mechanism as something much more, because our brains are so much more advanced. I think this is especially true for mushrooms, more so than any other naturally growing psychedelic. If you look at the evolutionary process, so many plants and animals have changed and adapted in nature (slowly, over long periods of time) to better suit their environment. It all goes back to Darwin and Natural Selection. In the early days, before humans were so dense in numbers, mushrooms had to defend themselves against animals, and that was about it. I think that any animal that eats a psychedelic would generally avoid it later, because the mind altering effects of the psychedelic would probably be perceived as 'bad' by most animals. This was a way of warding off predators.

However, when humans got a hold of them, our complex brain structure interpreted a 'trip' as an entirely different thing. I'm sure that any animal with a simpler brain would experience a much, much different trip than a human. It would probably impair the ability of the animal to survive in the wild, which is why animals would avoid it after eating it once.



Just some thoughts.


Now, if your saying that humans were designed to be compatible with tripping, it is pretty much impossible to tell. However, I wouldn't bet on it, seeing as how our early forms were much more like primitive animals. My bet is that if one of the very first humans ate some psychedelic mushrooms, they wouldn't get as many of the positive effects as we do today. Today, we know what psychedelics do, and because of our more stable conscious, we are able to get past the experience and look at it as something more than "Bad, no want eat!"


Keep in mind I'm not sure about any of this. This is just how I think of it. No way to tell for sure.




Yeah, it only seems natural to assume that psilocybe mushrooms create the active alkaloids as a defense mechanism, just like any other defenses in nature. It is just funny how certain compounds are created like that, how the hell do things like that evolve? It is like the organism that created them had a premonition of the effects.

THC, Psilocybin, etc... all these compounds are amazing, I see the rational explanation for their existence, I just dont see how the organisms that developed them came to be aware of the effects of their defenses. Its not like these chemicals are akin to more obvious defenses, like a turtle with a shell, or claws, etc etc. I dont understand how a theory would develop with much coherency about the orgin of these chemicals. Confusing stuff. It is almost more apparent that there is something absurd about them. One could point to divine creation, or perhaps the effectiveness of poisons and defenses, even by basic life forms can be evaluated by a more statistical way, like perhaps different fungus over the years conjured up compounds and by the passing of time came to realize that their fruit bodies were more successful by certain ones. Still, pretty crazy to come to an understanding of this cognition.

No doubt these drugs would probably produce panic and the desired "STAY AWAY" reaction to higher life forms, its funny that somewhere in human development certain cultures revered the profound effects produced by psilocybin, and related psychedelics that are found in nature.

:mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Invisiblefushock
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
    #8369979 - 05/06/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, it only seems natural to assume that psilocybe mushrooms create the active alkaloids as a defense mechanism, just like any other defenses in nature. It is just funny how certain compounds are created like that, how the hell do things like that evolve? It is like the organism that created them had a premonition of the effects.




Perhaps it isn't a defense mechanism. Perhaps its a survival/spreading mechanism. And we are the carriers.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
    #8369998 - 05/06/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

^ Heh... thats one way to look at it, maybe the early psilocybe species dreamed of one day being vastly indoor cultivated by silly apes! :laugh: :crazy2:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
    #8370029 - 05/06/08 06:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.

To ward off animals it has to be a very clear and instantaneous reaction, because they don't have the ability to logically deduce where the effects came from like we do.

It is amazing how perfectly these chemicals interact with our brains, its like a beautiful symphony. It could be coincidence, but who knows maybe its something more interesting than that.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
    #8370049 - 05/06/08 06:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

^ Perhaps, but if an animal scarfed down a bunch of psilocybe mushrooms I bet it would be pretty messed up pretty quickly, probably throw up and stuff. Perhaps even get killed from the intense inebriation because it is too fucked up to defend itself or something?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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OfflineShamanintraining
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
    #8370054 - 05/06/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.






Most poisons do not occur instantly either.


--------------------



"Leave your mind alone and just get high"

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OfflineLSDreamer
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Registered: 03/11/08
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
    #8370059 - 05/06/08 06:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Many animals seek out altered states, including psychedelic ones.


--------------------

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Offlinesoundtrance
di actyl more fien
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Registered: 08/05/07
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8370080 - 05/06/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Many animals seek out altered states, including psychedelic ones.




yeah ive read about this. i hear its a natural instinct to reach altered stated. lemurs trip off centapeeds and reindeer eat mushrooms.  :crazymonkey:


--------------------
"Our parents found themselves, we are finding each other"


:bigweed::mushroomgrow::cubie::mushroomgrow::flyhigh::lsdabc::tee:

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: LSDreamer]
    #8370083 - 05/06/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

^ Hrmmm, which animals have been shown to look after psychedelics? I know that animals have been seen seeking out fermented stuff for alcohol.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Shamanintraining]
    #8370087 - 05/06/08 06:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shamanintraining said:
Quote:

DimensionX said:
I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.






Most poisons do not occur instantly either.




Thats a good point. But it makes me think that poisons may not be the best defence mechanism against animals, expect for the fact that it may kill the animal and prevent them from eating it again, but this is a different tactic to a hallucinogenic defence. Ive known animals to do things which make them sick over and over again, i think its because of their inability to deduce what is causing the sickness.

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Offlinesoundtrance
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
    #8370099 - 05/06/08 06:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
^ Hrmmm, which animals have been shown to look after psychedelics? I know that animals have been seen seeking out fermented stuff for alcohol.




all i can remeber are lemurs and reindeer. the lemurs agitate the centapeeds and they produce some chemical on their skin that make the lemur trip when they lick it.


--------------------
"Our parents found themselves, we are finding each other"


:bigweed::mushroomgrow::cubie::mushroomgrow::flyhigh::lsdabc::tee:

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
    #8370114 - 05/06/08 06:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Quote:

Shamanintraining said:
Quote:

DimensionX said:
I'm not sure if they are defence mechanisms. Because the effects don't occur instantly, so I'm not sure if an animal would associate tripping, with the plant they ate twenty minutes or half an hour ago.






Most poisons do not occur instantly either.




Thats a good point. But it makes me think that poisons may not be the best defence mechanism against animals, expect for the fact that it may kill the animal and prevent them from eating it again, but this is a different tactic to a hallucinogenic defence. Ive known animals to do things which make them sick over and over again, i think its because of their inability to deduce what is causing the sickness.




But perhaps the point of psilocybin would be to inebriate the animal to the point that it doesnt ACTUALLY kill them, but in a competitive natural world, being that fucked up puts them in a very vulnerable state in which they could be preyed upon.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: soundtrance]
    #8370138 - 05/06/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

If you are fine with taking a drug and risking death (from wild animals, some unforeseen metabolic "glitch", etc, then your internal value system supports learning even over and above the continued safety of the physical body. Evolve past the physical vessel.

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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: andrewss]
    #8370178 - 05/06/08 06:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It could have that effect. But the plant would be rolling the dice a bit. Most of the time it would be like if you went out into the woods and ate a lot of mushrooms or acid. Its possible that you could wander off somewhere and get killed by an animal or walk off a cliff. But this would be bad luck and wouldn't happen most of the time.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: DimensionX]
    #8370281 - 05/06/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Being that psilocybin is so chemically similar to D.M.T. I would surmise that the body freaks out and assumes that it is dying. If you are able to peace yourself out that means that death no longer frightens you. Not being afraid of dying leads to overcoming body-identification. No body identification leads to some new kind of existence. Thus, drug taking is the primary causation of evolution.

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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fushock]
    #8370318 - 05/06/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The purpose of mushrooms on this planet is to keep the Earth alive and healthy. Their purpose in nature is to decompose waste products to allow for more nutrients so lots of flora can grow, and thus allow fauna to survive in tandem. Because some mushrooms have hallucinogens that reveal the beauty of nature when enjoyed outside, they have that added depth that shows us, as humans, that we must not destroy nature; that it is vitally important to us.

This is why we get so much out of our trips, too...in my opinion. It's nature's way of saying "Don't fuck with me, you need me to survive".

That's what I think..


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

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Offlineasknoquestions
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8370357 - 05/06/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Uh. There are a lot of serious misconceptions about evolution here.

A defense mechanism/poison exists in plants for the single reason that it helped the plant survive. This could take many forms, in different contexts.

There is no forethought to evolution. Two plants randomly develop chemicals in their tissues. One is inert to most predators, so the plant's survival is unaffected. The other plant's chemical causes death or impairment to animals and is thus better able to survive. Over time the poisonous plant tends to dominate the gene pool. Or not. It's all about how a random mutation affects the survival of a creature in a particular environment.

For instance, caffeine in coffee is a appetite suppressant. Insects/animals that eat it tend to stop eating sooner than in other plants. In humans it also causes a stimulant effect that we find pleasant. This is unrelated to it's primary reason for representation in the plants.

Edited by asknoquestions (05/06/08 07:33 PM)

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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: asknoquestions]
    #8370507 - 05/06/08 07:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Unfortunately, the theory of evolution itself is rather flawed, at least, for now.

How is an animal able to choose what mutations benefit them? I know it relates to the ecosystem and how it interacts with other animals/plants, but think about it.

Also, we have never observed any genetic mutations in the entire human population that have had any benefit, since we've had knowledge of DNA's existance. The only mutations we've seen are in birth defects, and most of them aren't very pretty. They don't seem very advantageous to the human that bears them, and those humans that do suffer from said mutations usually are sterile.

Hopefully someday soon we can actually observe an advantageous trait arising in an animal as it's happening. Otherwise, we really are clueless as to how our world really works. We say birds evolved from dinosaurs, but how come we can't find any fossil records of birds with scales? Surely you would think there would be a "middle" species to give us evidence that yes, indeed there has been evolution since the dawn of time.

But, we haven't found them yet. :frown:

And of course, as for the other end of the spectrum, we also have not readily observed divine intervention, either.

So who knows??


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

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