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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics *DELETED*
#8367875 - 05/06/08 05:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Mad_Larkin
Reason for deletion: '
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8367890 - 05/06/08 05:37 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Here's my counterargument: the vast majority of psychedelics are not pleasant. Think of a borderline one, like nutmeg. Nutmeg really isn't that good. I've heard it described as "like being stoned, but more nauseas" . There must be thousands of psychedelics in nature that that could be described as "like being nauseas, but slightly stoned" or "like being incredibly tired, but also thirsty" or even "like dying, but without the relief of actually dying"
We just happen to use the few that are actually pleasant. If they were put here to make us happy, what were the other ones put here for?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: zouden]
#8367909 - 05/06/08 05:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thanks for your reply.
They weren't put here to "make us happy". They were put here to advance us spiritually and physically.
In nature things create an equilibrium, a little give and a little take on each side. Psychedelic plants want us to use them so they have someone to protect them, we want to use them because they are pleasurable to us.
I agree, there are a lot of exceptions to this rule, plenty of psychoactive plants that have an unpleasant bodyload but these plants are no different to poisons in the human-plant releationship. They are unpleasant to take, so we don't take them. Or take them with caution.
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ReoSpeedwagon153
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368049 - 05/06/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is true though that lots of plants and fungi that grow near psychoactive ones are also deadly poisonous.
I think that nature (evolution, genetic pre-programming, whatever) has given us a very complicated brain. We are swimming in brain chemicals that determine our moods, emotions, responses, and levels of perception.
These chemicals can be altered by the foods we eat, the activities we perform, and even the thoughts and feelings we have. There are lots of different kinds of these chemicals, that all have different, unique and combined effects.
Hallucinogenic plants are like nature's offer to us to fuck with that balance, to see what we can do. This is one of nature's methods of catalyzing adaptation and evolution.
Just as animals sometimes branch out to new foods to adapt to a new diet, we branch out to new alkaloid rich plants to alter the evolution of our brain chemistry.
This leads us to new levels of perception, new realms of consciousness, and new ways of surviving in the world. Even new patterns of evolution and adaptation.
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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Endlessness
Nexus Refugee
Registered: 07/21/07
Posts: 272
Last seen: 4 years, 10 days
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368055 - 05/06/08 08:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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look, I do think there is an intimate connection between psychedelics and spiritual evolution..
BUT... your argument for it is very flawed
you say ´humans are meant to use because its pleasurable´.... just think about it.. mcdonalds and heroin are both pleasurable, for example, and yet they are very dangerous to your well being...
on the other side of the question, if you look at spiritual techniques and spiritual improvement, it is generally always associated not with pleasure, but with a certain renouncement/conscious suffering. Think for example: self-mortification techniques, chastity, yoga/hard positions, renouncing material wealth/going to caves, long periods of hard study, etc etc....
In the case of psychedelics, most notably ayahuasca, which is used for thousands of years as a spiritual tool, it is known that maybe the most important aspect of it is not pleasure, but what is called in portuguese as ´a peia´, or, ´the hardness´ (very loosely translated), which is the part that one vomits, sees his own mistakes, sees his own weaknesses, etc..
so if you want to make sense, I recommend you to start coming up with better arguments
Examples of arguments to research: the similarity of psychedelic active principles and brain neurotransmitters, presence of endogenous dmt, similarities between psychedelic experience reports and mystical experience descriptions, presence of substance use in early religious rites, insights and nobel prizes potentiated by psychedelic use, the importance of ´thinking outside the box´ for creative problem-solving and thus it´s evolutionary advantage, etc etc etc etc,
Edited by Endlessness (05/06/08 08:49 AM)
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Sparkabowl
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 27
Loc: South Fl
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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"like dying, but without the relief of actually dying" lol @ ^
what about the thought that its just the 'plants' defense mechanism, when an animal goes to eat it, it trips balls and freaks out and never eats it again...humans are just fucking curious and crazy fucks who lick and eat everything >_<
and if it is for evolution, think if we feed enough of it to an animal it will force it to evolve?
...like a pokemon?!
Edited by Sparkabowl (05/06/08 08:22 AM)
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Aopocetx
Writer
Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 2,421
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Sparkabowl]
#8368089 - 05/06/08 08:32 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't think that they were put here for us to use them spiritually, but I think we can and have used them for that purpose.
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Gavn
Im a Fun Gi
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Sydney NSW
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Aopocetx]
#8368109 - 05/06/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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though i agree with your theory.. if it were completely true that they wanted us to eat them, them dirty mofos would be growing all throughout my backyard haha
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Mad_Larkin
Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 18,606
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Gavn]
#8368133 - 05/06/08 08:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Cheers for the feedback guys.
Quote:
Gavn said: though i agree with your theory.. if it were completely true that they wanted us to eat them, them dirty mofos would be growing all throughout my backyard haha
Haha, perhaps they don't grow in your backyard but I'm sure you don't have to go far to find mushrooms?
Quote:
Endlessness said: look, I do think there is an intimate connection between psychedelics and spiritual evolution..
BUT... your argument for it is very flawed
you say ´humans are meant to use because its pleasurable´.... just think about it.. mcdonalds and heroin are both pleasurable, for example, and yet they are very dangerous to your well being...
on the other side of the question, if you look at spiritual techniques and spiritual improvement, it is generally always associated not with pleasure, but with a certain renouncement/conscious suffering. Think for example: self-mortification techniques, chastity, yoga/hard positions, renouncing material wealth/going to caves, etc etc....
In the case of psychedelics, most notably ayahuasca, which is used for thousands of years as a spiritual tool, it is known that maybe the most important aspect of it is not pleasure, but what is called in portuguese as ´a peia´, or, ´the hardness´ (very loosely translated), which is the part that one vomit, sees his own mistakes, sees his own weaknesses, etc..
so you should start thinking of better arguments (such as the similarity of psychedelic active principles and brain neurotransmitters, presence of endogenous dmt, similarities between psychedelic experience reports and mystical experience descriptions, presence of substance use in early religious rites, insights and nobel prizes potentiated by psychedelic use, the importance of ´thinking outside the box´ for creative problem-solving, etc etc etc etc,)
What I was getting at is that the pleasure side is natures way of encouraging us to use the plant (mcdonnalds and heroin don't occur naturally ((well, opium does)). I'm talking about on a very base level, natures way of pshyically attracting us to the plant. Of course there are other reasons we use these plants, obviously the most important is mind-expansion but I'm talking on a very basic physical level that all animals can appreciate.
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ReoSpeedwagon153
Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368348 - 05/06/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your argument is flawed on the basis of the existence of the deadly plant poisons.
The 'alkaloids as defense mechanism' argument is also flawed, because there are many plant alkaloids that are medically beneficial to humanity that carry the same kinds of adverse effects (bitterness, nausea, hallucinations) that one would assume an animal would avoid.
Also, plants may be more welcoming to being eaten by animals than we think. I tend to think a lot of species interaction isn't necessarily based on competition as we have always assumed. There are a lot more evolutionary favors being carried out than we may realize.
Plants offer us their fruit for seed dispersal, so perhaps they have beneficial (and psychedelic) alkaloids as another symbiotic offer. We will provide what they need to live, and spread their species, while they heal our sick and alter our consciousness.
This kind of symbiosis, or dependance on animal life is commonplace in the vegetable kingdom. Seed dispersal is often aided by animal locomotion, and many important kinds of pollination are performed by strong relationships between insects and plants.
It seems clear that something like this is happening between plants and humans.
-------------------- “I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”
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Primal Glitch
literally just vibing
Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 4,855
Loc: 🌎
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so it's like having sex with nature?
I like that
by the way, great avatar Sparkabowl
-------------------- make the changa you wish to see in the world gnome sayin'?
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fapjack
Title
Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 16,574
Loc: Central New Jersey
Last seen: 4 years, 4 days
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368431 - 05/06/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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If I had to fight for my life every single day, the last thing I would want to do is be tripping my face off. Also, if someone put them on the earth, why did we get stuck with shitty natural psychedelics like mushrooms and baby woodrose seeds when good ones like LSD and MDMA could have been put here?
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stefan
work in progress
Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 8,932
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368591 - 05/06/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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how about coincidence..
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 532
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: fapjack]
#8368703 - 05/06/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fapjack said: If I had to fight for my life every single day, the last thing I would want to do is be tripping my face off. Also, if someone put them on the earth, why did we get stuck with shitty natural psychedelics like mushrooms and baby woodrose seeds when good ones like LSD and MDMA could have been put here?
lol man wtf
-------------------- I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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LSDreamer
Materialist
Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 10,059
Last seen: 16 days, 13 minutes
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: John Smith]
#8368707 - 05/06/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Methamphetamine occurs in nature. 'Nuff said.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: stefan]
#8368709 - 05/06/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, this is a flawed argument. You're only looking at the two or three natural psychedelics that are relatively safe, and then using these as evidence to claim that they were put here just for us. What about the thousands if not millions of plants that have no pharmacological effect, are poisonous, or are addictive? The presence of the poppy, datura, and even the acacia plant that contains methamphetamine provides a convincing argument that natural psychedelics exist merely because of our chance discovery thousands of years ago that chomping on a mushroom leads to a mystical experience--the same discovery thousands of years ago that eating a datura plant led to insanity/death has similarly caused us to steer clear from poisonous plants.
Selectively choosing a sample and then saying that because this sample is relatively safe, it was therefore "meant to be," is faulty logic.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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recycledsoul
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/08
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: deCypher]
#8368739 - 05/06/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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pyschadelics are good for the begginer to open them up if they have been conditioned to a very limited view of reality as most of us had. but after a while, we can become dependent on them for spirituality and not really get there ourselves. so i feel they are neither good nor bad. meditation will get you to the same place psychadelics do without any side effects and you dont have to search and find something illegal which generally brings paranoia(negative). if you take a drug to get you high the drug is the master. you can get "high" yourself. another thing with pyschadelics is we gain a temporary state of mind close to enlightenment and we gain much knowledge and we think we are very very wise, even once coming down after the effects fade. then the mind has gained so much insight it believes it is very smart- we think we are very smart because our minds have gained some insight. thus we begin to listen to our mind and identify ourselves with it and this is the whole opposite of the pyschadelic experience. so keep listening always to life, not your thoughts. you have thoughts, some of them may be helpful, most are not.. most are not even your thoughts.
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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Shamanintraining
Junkhead
Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 3,565
Loc: Rough Raleigh
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Quote:
ReoSpeedwagon153 said: The 'alkaloids as defense mechanism' argument is also flawed, because there are many plant alkaloids that are medically beneficial to humanity that carry the same kinds of adverse effects (bitterness, nausea, hallucinations) that one would assume an animal would avoid.
I wouldn't say that it is flawed due to the fact that humans can use them. Humans are the only animal that has evolved to the point of higher thinking, at least on this planet. Mushrooms can aid in the hindrance of cluster headaches, but do the mushrooms know that? Any other animal that doesn't understand the ability of a mushroom to treat cluster headaches would probably avoid the mushrooms due to being frightened of a trip. Other animals don't look at the colors and view them as beautiful nor do they think about their place in the universe. Chances are the animal will fear for their life and never eat that mushroom, or any other hallucinogenic plant, again.
In the end I believe that a hallucinogen substance is one of the greatest defenses. Chances are an animal wont eat a hallucinogenic mushrooms more than once, instead they will eat the other mushrooms. In the absence of predators the mushroom will flourish. This isn't just for mushrooms, but any hallucinogenic plant.
-------------------- "Leave your mind alone and just get high"
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soundtrance
di actyl more fien
Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 1,050
Loc: ocala, FL
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8368789 - 05/06/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad_Larkin said: I think psychedelics were put on the Earth to speed up our evolution. The reason psychedelics are pleasurable to use is because we are SUPPOSED to use them.
The things we humans must do to be healthy, survive and evolve are made to be pleasureable by nature, so humans keep doing those things.
Eating Drinking Sex Breathing Sleeping Relaxing
These are all pleasurable activities which keep us regular and ensure we survive as ideviduals and as a species.
Most psychedelics give you a pleasurable euphoric high, the only reason for this sciencifically is so that humans will use them.
It works the other way round too. If humans want to use a plant they will make sure that the plant is healthy and survives so they can use it. Ensuring that the plant survives as a species too.
Even if a human is not attracted to the mind altering properties of psychedelics they can appreciate the euphoria they give.
I don't think that the effects of certain plants on our mind and bodies exist by happenstance. It is MEANT to be.
-------------------- "Our parents found themselves, we are finding each other"
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fushock
Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 428
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Re: Humans are MEANT to use psychedelics [Re: Mad_Larkin]
#8369815 - 05/06/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think psychedelics were put on the Earth to speed up our evolution. The reason psychedelics are pleasurable to use is because we are SUPPOSED to use them.
Thats cool. Personally, I think evolution creates such an amazing range of life forms and chemicals that some of those chemicals will have strange and awesome reactions with our extremely complicated minds.
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