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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Does Pornography Degrade Women
#8367147 - 05/05/08 11:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Somebody started this thread at bodybuilding.com, and it sparked my interested, so I decided to bring the discussion here (to a more intelligent group. )
Here was my reply:
The intent of pornography is clearly to stimulate male sexual desire - it is not art. Nobody views porno because of its aesthetic beauty or enticing story-line. Pornography does not appeal to the same senses that enjoy a wondrous landscape or a good meal. It stimulates an entirely different and much more powerful part of the male psyche, sexuality. Labeling pornography as art is ridiculous. It is about sex and serves no other purpose.
In pornography, the woman is merely a means to an end. Do you appreciate the actual women in pornography or what is being done to the women? If instead of taking a 12" cock into her rectum she was reciting a Gregorian chant, would it still be sexuality arousing? I doubt it. I think it would be hard to make an argument against pornography being degrading to women. Most of the responses here are along the lines of "well... she consented to doing it," which is totally non-sequitur. I can consent to being used as a toilet, but the fact that I've consented to this doesn't make it any less degrading.
"Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end." (Kant)
I don't believe pornography turns well-to-do people into serial killers or that it should be banned or any of that nonsense. I do believe we should accept pornography for what it is, rather than trying to sugarcoat it.
What do you guys and gals think?
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Pornography is lose/lose.
And mustard ftw. Real mustard of course, not that neon yellow crap.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: DieCommie]
#8367191 - 05/05/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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The problem here is that degrade is a loose term and people will equivocate inevitably.
I don't know really, I tend to think sexual desire in general degrades the person or class to whom its directed in some circumstances. So its hard for me to say that porn ipso facto degrades women cuz I think the degradation would be there anyways if your just dealing w/ a bunch of guys talking amongst themselves, or one thinking on his own. I find it hard to distinguish between the two.
I think an argument can be made that pornography degrades men, in that society views it as a primarily male product, and that it is shallow folks who consume it. Surely pronography degrades the women involved, but I don't know if you can say it denigrates women as a whole as much as it does men, though both are merely a product of the male psyche.
So its kinda like asking if drugs degrade a person. Kinda hard to focus scorn upon the tool to obtain the goal rather than the goal in and of itself, or those harboring the goal.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: johnm214]
#8367440 - 05/06/08 12:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
Honestly, I see pornography as the representation of capitalism. People are "whores" if you will, to the dominant class and engage in acts that of which they may not like in order to get by. Porno just shows it for what it really is.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8367475 - 05/06/08 12:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said: First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Degrade 1. To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
2. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace: a scandal that degraded the participants.
3. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
4. To reduce in worth or value: degrade a currency.
5. To impair in physical structure or function.
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women, though it does present a very narrow perspective on sexuality. It is arousing to watch other people having sex, and clinical studies have shown that both sexes are excited by graphic sexual imagery. (Yes, they did clinical studies, and yes, I watched a video OF the clinical studies. It was not very exciting, as everyone was hooked up to various arousal-measuring devices. .)
IMO, when humans were all living in close proximity, we had many opportunities to watch others engaged in sex play and intercourse. This is how we learned to 'do' sex, and those who were inspired to have more sex after becoming aroused by watching went on to make more babies. Evolution, baby!! 
My teenaged son was initially very embarrassed to discuss his interest in pornography. He was shocked when I validated his attraction to it, and even more shocked when I admitted that I found it exciting, too. I described the clinical studies & my theory about voyeurism being hard-wired into human sexuality. I also told him that there was MORE to sex than the animalistic and kinky performances featured in pornography.
The main issue I have with people watching porn, and particularly with young men watching, is that they have no other frame of reference for the development of their sexuality. For a sexually-active adult, the occasional X-rated movie or jerk-mag is just part of a bigger scheme. They know that the imagery is a rarified slice of the broader spectrum of sexual expression, and they can appreciate it for what it is.
For an inexperienced, sexually-isolated young man, however, this imagery seems to be the WHOLE picture. The fact that it is novel and exciting, not to mention taboo, makes it all the more memorable and important. As most parents seem to want their children to STAY children, and be offered abstinence-only sex ed in the public schools, these young men are not offered any contrasting descriptions of what sexuality can be.
Ideally, and this is what I have offered my sons, parents would maintain a totally open dialogue about sex and sexuality throughout childhood and early adulthood. They would allow their kids to ask ANY question, and research the answer if they didn't know it themself. They would have a library of books on sexuality, and allow their kids age-appropriate access. They would offer acceptance and support during puberty, and deal with their hang-ups AWAY from their children (in counseling, if possible).
Within this framework, pornography would not make such a big impression, and could be enjoyed for the exaggerated and fantastical fiction that it is.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368302 - 05/06/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think the only thing it degrades it the sexual act itself, sex can be simply fun and thats very enjoyable, but tantra takes it way beyond fun, but we live in a society that generally shuns it instead of really teaching us about it.
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Edited by Chronic7 (05/06/08 10:53 AM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#8368347 - 05/06/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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lol i know too many women that love their porno and would be mad if they didnt have it
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
Same for men. Everything has many aspects that can be positive or negative. This must be taken on a case by case basis IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Icelander]
#8368500 - 05/06/08 11:29 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
Same for men. Everything has many aspects that can be positive or negative. This must be taken on a case by case basis IMO.
yeah pretty much lifes alot like that with alot of things
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368502 - 05/06/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Degrade 1. To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
2. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace: a scandal that degraded the participants.
3. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
4. To reduce in worth or value: degrade a currency.
5. To impair in physical structure or function.
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women, though it does present a very narrow perspective on sexuality. It is arousing to watch other people having sex, and clinical studies have shown that both sexes are excited by graphic sexual imagery. (Yes, they did clinical studies, and yes, I watched a video OF the clinical studies. It was not very exciting, as everyone was hooked up to various arousal-measuring devices. .)
IMO, when humans were all living in close proximity, we had many opportunities to watch others engaged in sex play and intercourse. This is how we learned to 'do' sex, and those who were inspired to have more sex after becoming aroused by watching went on to make more babies. Evolution, baby!! 
My teenaged son was initially very embarrassed to discuss his interest in pornography. He was shocked when I validated his attraction to it, and even more shocked when I admitted that I found it exciting, too. I described the clinical studies & my theory about voyeurism being hard-wired into human sexuality. I also told him that there was MORE to sex than the animalistic and kinky performances featured in pornography.
The main issue I have with people watching porn, and particularly with young men watching, is that they have no other frame of reference for the development of their sexuality. For a sexually-active adult, the occasional X-rated movie or jerk-mag is just part of a bigger scheme. They know that the imagery is a rarified slice of the broader spectrum of sexual expression, and they can appreciate it for what it is.
For an inexperienced, sexually-isolated young man, however, this imagery seems to be the WHOLE picture. The fact that it is novel and exciting, not to mention taboo, makes it all the more memorable and important. As most parents seem to want their children to STAY children, and be offered abstinence-only sex ed in the public schools, these young men are not offered any contrasting descriptions of what sexuality can be.
Ideally, and this is what I have offered my sons, parents would maintain a totally open dialogue about sex and sexuality throughout childhood and early adulthood. They would allow their kids to ask ANY question, and research the answer if they didn't know it themself. They would have a library of books on sexuality, and allow their kids age-appropriate access. They would offer acceptance and support during puberty, and deal with their hang-ups AWAY from their children (in counseling, if possible).
Within this framework, pornography would not make such a big impression, and could be enjoyed for the exaggerated and fantastical fiction that it is.
Great post V.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#8368511 - 05/06/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chronic777 said: I think the only thing it degrades it the sexual act itself, sex can be simply fun and thats very enjoyable, but tantra takes it way beyond fun, but we live in a society that generally shuns it instead of really teaching us about it.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368785 - 05/06/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women
Why not?
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Icelander]
#8368795 - 05/06/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
I can't think a woman is being degraded unless she also thinks she is being degraded too?
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8368808 - 05/06/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said: Honestly, I see pornography as the representation of capitalism. People are "whores" if you will, to the dominant class and engage in acts that of which they may not like in order to get by.
I've heard this a lot from Marxists, Feminists, and Marxist-Feminists. Although I'm not a Marxist, this does seem like a valid criticism.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here



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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
I can't think a woman is being degraded unless she also thinks she is being degraded too?
You can think whatever you want. To view someone else as being without dignity is a projection on your part; their indignity is something you think, not something you witness.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Veritas said: I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women
Why not?
To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can degrade you without your permission. The fact that pornography exists is neutral, it is only our perceptions which assign negative or positive attributes to this particular mode of sexual expression. Who has done the degrading?
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recycledsoul
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Sex is the original psychadelic expereince, egoloss and timelessness. society has turned into something so horrible. pornograhpy is a result of preists and continued by corporate energy. really if you examine the roots of the problem you will find it is turning the life energy- beautiful sacred loving act into a sin. we are all sin then? so we are repressed, then subject to intense ruling of passion. then feel guilty - we fight ourselves no? really if you see the actors faces they are very very ugly, the women the men. it is a very violent dominating act that is occuring too. totally fake. it is the opposite of the pyshcadelic experience. so much of the world is corrupted by pornograhpy when sex is avaibable to everyone. the act of porn was not the degrading act for these people, but just a continuation of things that occured earlier in their life- molestation, violence, unloving parents, bad drugs... etc.. you will find most of the people are on some sort of drug, most cocaine. because porn stimulates our nervous system so much it is very addictive. we dont like porn itself, we like the sensation it creates in us. we only like this because we live in such a repressed society that has turned sex into something dirty. when really its something beautiful to expereience the person you love through. to transcend the duality of the entier universe through this sacred act. it is the original psychadelic experience- time loss and ego loss. yes we are very confused because we think we want one thing but what we really want is something else. and it is up to us to figure this out. and pyshadelics make give you a little insight at first, but a so much more immense insigt comes through meditation. we are so obsessed with sex, but this is something given to us from corporations to expoit us, from preists who repressed us. really are you living your own life or just reacting your the demands of your mind - which you have inherited from society, which is not you- which keeps you miserable. really we are searching for love, absoloute love and because our mother, our father does not even give us a good example we search in the wrong places. sex is like everything else. you can do it Wholely, the right way whihc will benefit you and others or you can do it the confused way which mostly causes negativities in you, but also others. in meditaiton there are sensations that are so much more incredible than any orgasm. Much more. think of everything that you expereince in your life. it is not the object you enjoy, but the sensation generated within you which you expereince. this is not the goal of meditation, but is one side effect. really sex then is nothing compared to what you can do, you wont even want sex anymore
really some great books if you are intrested in understanding sex more or end your use of pornograhpy are: Taoists secrets of love:: Mantak Chia From sex to superconsciousness:: Osho Book of secrets(tantric bible):: Osho
recourses http://www.tantra.org/sacrorgs.html technique for achieving multiple orgasms(but incorect philosohpy): http://vipervr.com/docs/mlan.pdf
tantra http://www.shivashakti.com/kular.htm http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=matsyendranath http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vignana+bhairava
good luck brothers and sisters
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368933 - 05/06/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Veritas said: I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women
Why not?
To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can degrade you without your permission. The fact that pornography exists is neutral, it is only our perceptions which assign negative or positive attributes to this particular mode of sexual expression. Who has done the degrading?
I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
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AnarchoTrip
Young Blood



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What about fendom, gay, lesbian, transexual, or cross-dressing pornography?
-------------------- YIPPIE!
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recycledsoul
Stranger

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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: AnarchoTrip]
#8369074 - 05/06/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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why do we watch people living on tV instead of actully living. wake up from the dream and you will stop suffering from it
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
That is your perception, not the fact of the matter. There is no such thing as "inherently" degrading, as you can see from the definition of the word. Those women are actresses taking part in a performance...why should this mean anything about them as individuals, much less about women in general? Sounds like projection to me, sir.
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around? After all, you serve no other purpose than to bring them their food & refill their damn water glass...you must be submissive and servile all night long. How degrading! Everyone can see that your inherent worth as a human being has been reduced, that your dignity has been compromised, and your value forever lowered.
Viewing pornography may influence individuals to view women as sex toys, with no purpose beyond fulfilling men's sexual fantasies. It could also been seen for the entertaining, unrealistic portrayal that it is, and not globalized to the entire female population. YOU may have been influenced to view women as having less dignity/worth because pornography exists, but this is a reflection of your choices about what it means, and not a direct causation.
Edited by Veritas (05/06/08 02:45 PM)
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WordlessNature
kÅ¡atrīya



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8369379 - 05/06/08 03:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
That is your perception, not the fact of the matter. There is no such thing as "inherently" degrading, as you can see from the definition of the word. Those women are actresses taking part in a performance...why should this mean anything about them as individuals, much less about women in general? Sounds like projection to me, sir.
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around? After all, you serve no other purpose than to bring them their food & refill their damn water glass...you must be submissive and servile all night long. How degrading! Everyone can see that your inherent worth as a human being has been reduced, that your dignity has been compromised, and your value forever lowered.
Viewing pornography may influence individuals to view women as sex toys, with no purpose beyond fulfilling men's sexual fantasies. It could also been seen for the entertaining, unrealistic portrayal that it is, and not globalized to the entire female population. YOU may have been influenced to view women as having less dignity/worth because pornography exists, but this is a reflection of your choices about what it means, and not a direct causation.
Hats off.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: The intent of pornography is clearly to stimulate male sexual desire - it is not art. Nobody views porno because of its aesthetic beauty or enticing story-line.
I disagree. Aesthetics definitely have their place in pornographic filmmaking.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Yes, I've seen some beautifully-composed, artistic pornographic films. They are more the exception than the rule, as they tend to be big-budget films by a few top adult directors, but not every X-rated film is shot in a seedy motel room under blindingly-bright lights.
Andrew Blake has created some highly-aesthetic adult films, probably with an eye towards the growing female market for well-made porn.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: johnm214]
#8369535 - 05/06/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
In order for the OPs post to make any sense. He's assuming that porn is specifically for men and that women are totally against it. And honestly, porn is not degrading at all. As was stated before, an act itself is not degrading, the only way it is degrading is if YOU project it.
The argument for porn being degrading is only somewhat valid when dealing with specifically heterosexual porn in which the male is the dominant role.
Someone said sucking dick is degrading? How is that degrading? Giving someone pleasure is not degrading.
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Edited by learningtofly (05/06/08 04:14 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8369547 - 05/06/08 04:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Something about a 'squirting orgasm' is perfectly nasty.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
I can't think a woman is being degraded unless she also thinks she is being degraded too?
Yes you can think that but you will just be pleasing your self importance. In other words how is deciding for others any of your business?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Icelander]
#8370266 - 05/06/08 07:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes you can think that but you will just be pleasing your self importance. In other words how is deciding for others any of your business?
Are you trying to take all the fun out of being human?
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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I'd say the porn industry is mainly driven either by single people who would rather be having sex, or by people who have relationships, but don't know how to fully connect with their partners.
At the same time, I don't judge the people involved, and honor their right to explore reality in the way they see fit. People go through stages in life, and girls (and guys) who are attracted to porn are learning lessons about themselves in the process. Perhaps they want to know what it feels like to be a porn star, a representation of their search for freedom. Perhaps they are hungry for money, and want to know what it feels like to be powerful. Perhaps they want to know what it feels like to be used by men, a representation of low self esteem. Perhaps they want to know what it feels like to be degraded in some way?
I cheer them on for searching for freedom, I honor them for their search to understand themselves, even if to be degraded. I honor the porn addicts, searching for truth in their inspired hand jobs.
I get the idea that these women have lost respect for men, but on a higher level, it's a learning process, and I like to think that it takes a lot of strength to reach for independence and not settle for leaving their curiosity unexamined, despite whatever problems they may have.
Maybe there are some happy fulfilled porn stars out there, but I'd guess that the majority feel degraded in some way, and in that sense porn is degrading. But it's a choice, so how bad can it be?

>>>>Something about a 'squirting orgasm' is perfectly nasty.
Seems perfectly nice to me.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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daytripper23
?


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Loc:
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8371426 - 05/06/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Etymology of Pornography: 1857, "description of prostitutes," from Fr. pornographie, from Gk. pornographos "(one) writing of prostitutes," from porne "prostitute," originally "bought, purchased"
It might easily be argued that life is sex and sex is life. Considering this, the last thing that art is, is our existence so explicitly demonstrated. One way of seeing it: pornography is "literal art".
It is not just a matter of showing skin, or sexual expression, (although sexuality is of course necessary).
There is plenty of sexual art out there that is awesome, (say, Dali!). The difference between this and pornography though, is that pornography is explicitly geared to getting you off. When I say, "thats not art, its pornography" it is the subjective determination that the expression has crossed the line between art and wanking material.
Looking at it this way, I would not consider all "porn movies" pornography. But I would consider the vast majority of them to be. (who gives a shit about plot eh?) Pretty much all the porn on the internet is something I would consider in this light to be pornography. What I am trying to impress, is that the word pornography is more a matter of context than simply how hardcore it is.
And I think the context is derogatory.
That said though, it is ridiculous to call pornography immoral, or have social movements against it. Its a matter of aesthetics.
Edited by daytripper23 (05/07/08 12:27 AM)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8371516 - 05/07/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I try to analyze an aspect of pornography, using a position taken by some feminists no less, and suddenly I'm a misogynists that thinks women are worthless. Yikes!
To be clear, I was never discussing "women in general." I'm only concerned with the women in pornography. Nor did I ever mention anything about "inherent worth" or a woman's "value forever being lowered." That is all straw that you threw into my argument. Projection, indeed.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8371556 - 05/07/08 12:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
In order for the OPs post to make any sense. He's assuming that porn is specifically for men and that women are totally against it. And honestly, porn is not degrading at all. As was stated before, an act itself is not degrading, the only way it is degrading is if YOU project it.
The discussion is on the question presented, and I fail to see how valid a presumption that porn is exclusivly a male-consumed product affects the discussion?
The question was, does porn degrade women? Course now the poster changed it to: does porn degrade women in porn, but whatever.
WHy does it matter whether their is an exclusive consumption of porn by men?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: Honestly, I see pornography as the representation of capitalism. People are "whores" if you will, to the dominant class and engage in acts that of which they may not like in order to get by.
I've heard this a lot from Marxists, Feminists, and Marxist-Feminists. Although I'm not a Marxist, this does seem like a valid criticism.
This is my major criticism of it as well, although I also agree with Veritas on many points. I think that it's possible to make pornography that is not degrading, but that the capitalist market influences production values so heavily that what is created is mostly a load of cheesy, more or less degrading schlock.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8371600 - 05/07/08 12:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around?
Yes, absolutely.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
Please, this is nonsense. Did you know that having a dick inside a woman gives the woman sexual pleasure?
Isn't the man in pornography simply the means to the woman's sexual pleasure, thereby making the man equally as "inherently degraded"? You qualify that the women are clearly submissive, so essentially who is on top determines which one is being degraded and used?
Human beings form relationships with each other. The nature of that relationship is dependent upon the ways in which the individuals choose to relate. You are proposing the idea that if two (or more ) individuals choose to interact with each other in a manner that only exists on one level, simply for mutual sexual pleasure, one of the individuals is being degraded. Once more, this is nonsense!
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Nor did I ever mention anything about "inherent worth" or a woman's "value forever being lowered." That is all straw that you thre w into my argument. Projection, indeed.
It was clearly implied in your suggestion that a woman being fucked in pornography is being degraded. The idea that engaging in an action lowers the character or quality of an individual is a judgment being placed by the observer, unless the individual themselves feel as though engaging in said action diminishes who they are.
You've put forth the idea that a woman who takes a cock inherently has their character and quality as an individual diminished if the man doing so receives sexual satisfaction from doing so and the act of sex is the extent of their relationship. It isn't projection; it is inherent within your assertion.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8372029 - 05/07/08 06:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Its true actually, if it was gay porn, is one man being degraded and the other not simply because one is on the receiving end of the cock?
In the end i think men are degrading towards women in general, the words slut, slag, slapper, whore are thrown around alot, i don't see them being used as often towards men. Although its also natural for a man to want a "clean" girl, someone who hasnt been round the block, its just the way it is. Some girls seem to even like being degraded during sex.
I still think the only thing porn degrades is the sexual act itself, neither the man or the woman.
Ultimately the only thing that degrades anything is our ignorant judgemental perception.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here



Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8372100 - 05/07/08 07:23 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around?
Yes, absolutely.
No, not absolutely. It is relative to how you view yourself. I spent a year cleaning up after sloppy rich people, rectifying their complaints and scrubbing particles of their shit out of toilets. I kept a good attitude, never felt degraded or downtrodden. It was a time in my life when I really liked who I was, and obviously that had nothing to do with my duties.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8372138 - 05/07/08 07:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
NiamhNyx said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Is it degrading to work as a waiter/ress, and have everyone from the cook to the customers boss you around?
Yes, absolutely.
No, not absolutely. It is relative to how you view yourself. I spent a year cleaning up after sloppy rich people, rectifying their complaints and scrubbing particles of their shit out of toilets. I kept a good attitude, never felt degraded or downtrodden. It was a time in my life when I really liked who I was, and obviously that had nothing to do with my duties.
I find the most humbling of jobs to be the best, i work in a music studio and do a bit of everything, including cleaning up & scrubbing a toilet is quite therapeutic. I also record bands and setup sounds for weddings & parties (just to feed my ego so you don't think im a scrubber!) its nice doing it all and i would never think to employ a cleaner because i'm above it or too holy to clean up dried on shit.
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Boots
Disenchanted


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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: AnarchoTrip]
#8372189 - 05/07/08 08:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, pornography more often than not, degrades women in my eyes. That's how I like it though. I seem to lack respect for women as a majority. Most I don't find useful other than for sex, which is probably why I haven't fucked in over 3 years.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Boots]
#8372204 - 05/07/08 08:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sounds like you got issues with your mother
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I try to analyze an aspect of pornography, using a position taken by some feminists no less, and suddenly I'm a misogynists that thinks women are worthless. Yikes!
To be clear, I was never discussing "women in general." I'm only concerned with the women in pornography. Nor did I ever mention anything about "inherent worth" or a woman's "value forever being lowered." That is all straw that you threw into my argument. Projection, indeed.
The so-called "straw" I included in my post is from the actual definition of "degrade," which you said was what happened to women as an inherent function of pornography. You never stated that you meant ONLY women who perform in X-rated movies, and you specified that porn was "inherently degrading." The title of your thread AND your subsequent comments indicate that you were discussing women in general, and this is the first post in which you have stated that all women who are NOT adult movie stars are exempted from this "inherent degradation."
If you clearly state the parameters of your argument at the start, you will have responses to THAT argument. If you muddy the waters by using general terms, insisting upon the definition of a particular word, and assuming that YOUR perception of the inherent quality of an action is the CORRECT and ONLY factual quality therein, you will receive the responses you've already gotten.
It is absurd to state that your idea of what goes on in pornography is both accurate and inherently degrading. How can you confidently state that every woman who performs in a pornographic scene is degraded because
1. She is submissive 2. She is "only" there to have a dick stuck in her 3. Her only purpose is to provide pleasure for the man?
Can't you see that these are all your assumptions, and not necessarily a factual description of what goes on? And then, you go on to state that all of these conditions are inherently degrading by definition. I've already posted the possible definitions of "degrade," and I would like you to tell me which one is "inherent" in the action of performing in a porno.
Edited by Veritas (05/07/08 09:17 AM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#8372329 - 05/07/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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if i ever find porno jim again... i wil be in one of his movies, sometimes people tell me that i would look good in a porno, i dont think i would feel degraded but ill make sure that women i do does lol
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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jkeps
Mushaman



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: AnarchoTrip]
#8372987 - 05/07/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Last time I checked, and I do check often, women weren't the stars of pornography... a gay, male porn star gets paid so much more for what they do than a female porn star.
Then there are the male porn stars FOR women... they make a pretty penny too.
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We are always acting on what has just finished happening. It happened at least 1/30th of a second ago. We think we’re in the present, but we aren’t. The present we know is only a movie of the past
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: jkeps]
#8372997 - 05/07/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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wow, personally i wouldnt sell out being a porno would just be getting paid to do what i would do anyway ^.^ i think all porn people should be doing it that way. it gives a way better feel to the stuff.
which i now raise that porn where they are doing it just for money of course is degrading as where its just people doing it to do it and the money is a plus is awesome and not!!!!
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
Edited by thedudenj (05/07/08 12:48 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: thedudenj]
#8373431 - 05/07/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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>>>>Something about a 'squirting orgasm' is perfectly nasty.
Seems perfectly nice to me.
Right on. Spray it don't say it.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: johnm214]
#8373815 - 05/07/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said: First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
In order for the OPs post to make any sense. He's assuming that porn is specifically for men and that women are totally against it. And honestly, porn is not degrading at all. As was stated before, an act itself is not degrading, the only way it is degrading is if YOU project it.
The discussion is on the question presented, and I fail to see how valid a presumption that porn is exclusivly a male-consumed product affects the discussion?
That was my point, in order for the OP's ORIGINAL idea to make sense, we would have to assume that women dont like porn... which is not true.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8373980 - 05/07/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't think it's necessary to assume that no women like porn in order to put forward a reasonable feminist critique of it. People like all kinds of things that ultimately place the in a position of subservience and subjugation, which isn't to say that I believe porn does this universally, but rather that when it comes to critiquing it, it doesn't matter one damn bit whether some or even many women like it. Some people get off on being shat on, and it seems that the whole point of that is that it's degrading.
Many women like some porn, or theoretically like porn but have not seen much that's up to par. I personally fall into the latter category. I think it's fair to say that most mainstream porn depicts women as fuckbags and that much of it is ultimately more or less degrading. I also think it's possible to make porn that is not degrading, that celebrates female sexuality and depicts women in roles of power and agency, I just haven't seen it. Granted, I haven't tried too hard.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8374034 - 05/07/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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How is a photo or video of two (or more) actors engaged in WHATEVER, somehow degrading to women in general? What does this paid performance have to do with the dignity/worth of anyone else? 
I've heard so many feminists exclaiming over pornography and "slutty" actresses/models/singers, and how they are degrading women in general. This is absurd, IMO, as the "poor" choices made by individual women have little to do with the qualities of 51% of the world's population. If we truly own our sexuality, then we own the decision to be submissive, to be slutty, to be subjugated, to engage in "degrading" activities, and NO ONE else is responsible for these choices.
Who are you to decide that the only "celebration" of female sexuality is one in which women are in positions of power and agency? Female sexuality is whatever women DO and enjoy, and that includes submission. It also includes exhibition, which is probably why many women act in adult movies. Bringing pleasure to your partner is something both sexes get off on, so it is not accurate to state that a "one-sided" porno scene cannot be a celebration.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8374060 - 05/07/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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You have a fair point. However, the representations we see of those we associate ourselves with affects how we regard ourselves. If little girls grow up with few or no female role models aside from Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and then are exposed to the kind of pornography that depicts women as fuckbags, they are going to model themselves around those representations. Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, but it is also pretty unreasonable to expect someone who's only been exposed to a limited range of influences to turn out radically different than what they were exposed to. If the dominant model of femininity is what it is, a majority of girls are going to continue to model themselves in that image. If we wish to raise strong, independent and intelligent girls who are in charge of thier own sexual expression we're going to have to provide more role models that present themselves that way both in real life and in the media.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8374087 - 05/07/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sound like the issue is not that a few women are choosing to express their sexuality in a commercialized manner, but that "ordinary" women are not presenting alternative models for the next generation. The totally in-your-face gratuituous sexuality we see in the media and porn is the inevitable result of sexual repression. Freud had some wacky ideas, but IMO he was right about the Libido. Our life force will be expressed, and if the natural expression is criticized and shut down, it will be expressed in exaggerated ways.
If individual women want their daughters to question the role models being presented in the media, they would do better to encourage analysis rather than bitching about how "slutty" Britney Spears looks. They could raise critical thinkers rather than competitive, sniping, self-hating backstabbers. It's always amazed me to sit down with a group of women who promote themselves as feminists, and then listen to them hate on women who supposedly "undermine" their agenda. It's exactly this kind of thinking which prevents women from cooperating to gain power.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8374152 - 05/07/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: How is a photo or video of two (or more) actors engaged in WHATEVER, somehow degrading to women in general? What does this paid performance have to do with the dignity/worth of anyone else? 
I've heard so many feminists exclaiming over pornography and "slutty" actresses/models/singers, and how they are degrading women in general. This is absurd, IMO, as the "poor" choices made by individual women have little to do with the qualities of 51% of the world's population. If we truly own our sexuality, then we own the decision to be submissive, to be slutty, to be subjugated, to engage in "degrading" activities, and NO ONE else is responsible for these choices.
Who are you to decide that the only "celebration" of female sexuality is one in which women are in positions of power and agency? Female sexuality is whatever women DO and enjoy, and that includes submission. It also includes exhibition, which is probably why many women act in adult movies. Bringing pleasure to your partner is something both sexes get off on, so it is not accurate to state that a "one-sided" porno scene cannot be a celebration.
Having known you personally as well as at this forum I will say without reservation that you have the healthiest attitude about sexuality that I have ever come across. Bar none and by far. You are awesome Veritas, not to mention very emotionally healthy. or should I say,
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8374171 - 05/07/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree with you completely! Well said.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Boots]
#8374220 - 05/07/08 06:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does Pornography Degrade Women?
If it doesn't, what is the point?
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future
Stranger
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8374546 - 05/07/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
Please, this is nonsense. Did you know that having a dick inside a woman gives the woman sexual pleasure?
Isn't the man in pornography simply the means to the woman's sexual pleasure, thereby making the man equally as "inherently degraded"? You qualify that the women are clearly submissive, so essentially who is on top determines which one is being degraded and used?
Human beings form relationships with each other. The nature of that relationship is dependent upon the ways in which the individuals choose to relate. You are proposing the idea that if two (or more ) individuals choose to interact with each other in a manner that only exists on one level, simply for mutual sexual pleasure, one of the individuals is being degraded. Once more, this is nonsense!
What about when he sticks it in her ass, fucks the hell out of it, then takes his dick out and demands her to suck on it.
NO THATS NOT DEGRADING/sarcasm.
Btw, one way to look at this is this - Sex is becoming more and more porno style because that's what young people are seeing. They see it in a porno and they decide that's what they wanna do next time they have the chance.
-------------------- I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: future]
#8374825 - 05/07/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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So what if he does? What if a girl fucks a guy with a strap-on? I know a guy who did it because he was curious, he wasn't degraded. It's only degrading when you the observer make up this crazy idea that its degrading.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: future]
#8376253 - 05/08/08 02:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
future said: What about when he sticks it in her ass, fucks the hell out of it, then takes his dick out and demands her to suck on it.
NO THATS NOT DEGRADING/sarcasm.
No act is "inherently degrading".
Your sense of sarcasm is so subtle and full of wit, by the way. 
Quote:
Btw, one way to look at this is this - Sex is becoming more and more porno style because that's what young people are seeing. They see it in a porno and they decide that's what they wanna do next time they have the chance.
Riiight. Could you please elaborate as to how you have objectively determined how sex is becoming? What is your sample size in determining as much?
If as much is true, then its probably a good thing for those having sex.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8376402 - 05/08/08 03:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I admit I was too vague in this thread and have received a number of irrelevant responses because of this. I originally started arguing this point on another website and forgot to carry the premises of that argument over to this one. My bad. Lets try this again.
The question is: Does pornography degrade women?
I believe that most pornography, with the exception of some softcore videos, degrades the women, the men, and the sexual act itself. What I am discussing here is the video itself and what happens from the time the video begins to the time it ends. (Whatever happens outside of the video is irrelevant to me at this point, but the effects of pornography would make another interesting debate.)
By "degrade" I mean that something is portrayed as having lesser worth or value than than it ordinarily would have in other contexts or situations.
Quote:
To Abase, Debase, Degrade. These words agree in the idea of bringing down from a higher to a lower state. Abase has reference to a bringing down in condition or feelings; as, to abase the proud, to abase one's self before God. Debase has reference to the bringing down of a thing in purity, or making it base. It is, therefore, always used in a bad sense, as, to debase the coin of the kingdom, to debase the mind by vicious indulgence, to debase one's style by coarse or vulgar expressions. Degrade has reference to a bringing down from some higher grade or from some standard. Thus, a priest is degraded from the clerical office. When used in a moral sense, it denotes a bringing down in character and just estimation; as, degraded by intemperance, a degrading employment, etc. "Art is degraded when it is regarded only as a trade."
Just as art is degraded when it is regarded only as a trade, human beings are degraded when they are regarded only as a object of sexual gratification. Furthermore, according to Kant, an action that treats a human being merely as a means and not an end is immoral. For example, Ford treated humanity merely as a means to profit and not an end in itself when it failed to recall the Pinto. (They were aware that the gas tank would explode in almost any rear-end collision, but figured that the cost of settling lawsuits would be cheaper than recalling the Pinto.)
Quote:
The basic idea is that some actions unacceptably treat a person as a means because they separate out some physical aspect of the person for use or gratification. They are wrong, not because they eclipse reasoned willing, but because they ignore the individual's physical-spiritual integrity and diminish the person's dignity by locating his or her value in a body part or activity.
In most pornographic videos, the value of the women (as well as the men) are reduced to their sexual organs and the activity of sex. Remember, I'm dealing exclusively with the images in the video itself. The actors might not be degraded, but I believe their characters certainly are. The value of these characters are measured by their sexual organs and the only thing they appear to value themselves is the activity of sex. The fact that they're human beings is almost irrelevant. In most films, even Hollywood films, the characters are appreciated for the various human qualities that they have. There may be sexual scenes in these movies, but most people appreciate the film, as well as the characters, for reasons other than sex. In pornography, the characters are only appreciated because of their dicks, boobs, rectum, and vag. (And sometimes a pretty face... but usually not.)
To add to the degradation, the female characters are usually portrayed as submissive to the male characters, which automatically places them in a lower rank and power. The degree of submissiveness varies from film to film. In softcore, the women are submissive, but not to the point were it is remarkably noticeable. In some hardcore flicks, the female characters are willingly abused, appear as little more than slaves, and are treated as if they were less-than-human. (There are also genres of pornography, such as FemDom, were the roles are reversed.)
I hope this made my stance more clear!
I'll concede that there is some pornography that is artistically oriented and, while it is still mainly concerned with sex, the aesthetic value of the film can also be appreciated. Unfortunately, the vast majority of pornography is not like this at all.
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wisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
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yes, sadly it does.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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At least the women got paid for it.
I only got walked in on while stroking myself with one hand and turning a Playboy page with the other.
I felt much more degraded than the girl on the page.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8376441 - 05/08/08 03:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: You have a fair point. However, the representations we see of those we associate ourselves with affects how we regard ourselves. If little girls grow up with few or no female role models aside from Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and then are exposed to the kind of pornography that depicts women as fuckbags, they are going to model themselves around those representations. Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, but it is also pretty unreasonable to expect someone who's only been exposed to a limited range of influences to turn out radically different than what they were exposed to. If the dominant model of femininity is what it is, a majority of girls are going to continue to model themselves in that image. If we wish to raise strong, independent and intelligent girls who are in charge of thier own sexual expression we're going to have to provide more role models that present themselves that way both in real life and in the media.
Marx said something akin to "we are free to choose, but our choices are limited by our circumstances." (I forgot the exact quote and this one may be radically different from what he actually said, but the general idea is the same. What he said probably sounded more eloquent.)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I believe that most pornography, with the exception of some softcore videos, degrades the women, the men, and the sexual act itself. What I am discussing here is the video itself and what happens from the time the video begins to the time it ends.
By "degrade" I mean that something is portrayed as having lesser worth or value than than it ordinarily would have in other contexts or situations.
You are proposing it is degrading due to a specific instance being compared to another instance, and finding the difference "less". Of course, sex means different things to different individuals and takes different forms dependent upon the specifics of the relationship amongst those having sex. Essentially, what you are doing is issuing a value judgment that sex is degrading if it is performed in a certain manner within a certain context. The criteria with which you judge this worth, of course, couldn't be any more subjective and irrelevant unless you are one of the individuals engaged in that instance of sex.
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Just as art is degraded when it is regarded only as a trade, human beings are degraded when they are regarded only as a object of sexual gratification.
The idea that if a specific instance or occurrence does not convey the totality of a human being's nature, quality, or meaning, then it is degrading of that individual, is nonsense. Declaring that pornography is degrading is no different than declaring that being amused by the clothes that someone is wearing while observing them walking down the street is demeaning to that individual because it doesn't portray that individual in the full context in which they exist, because one didn't enjoy the qualities the individual has as a thinking, emotive human being, but merely enjoyed one aspect of the way in which they've expressed themselves, etc.
The fact is that human beings are objects, and the simple fact that they are more than objects does not mean that it is degrading to regard them purely at that level, as doing so does not deny or nullify any other aspect of their character, quality, or nature.
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In most films, even Hollywood films, the characters are appreciated for the various human qualities that they have. There may be sexual scenes in these movies, but most people appreciate the film, as well as the characters, for reasons other than sex.
Yet we are talking about pornography, and not other types of movies. You can't judge one within the context of another. Is a music concert degrading because it does not convey the drummer's reflections on life as a parent? With the logic you have put forth, clearly the drummer is being degraded.
Quote:
To add to the degradation, the female characters are usually portrayed as submissive to the male characters, which automatically places them in a lower rank and power.
You are clearly espousing the value judgment that being submissive is degrading, but there is no rational explanation put forth as to why this should be the case. I'll submit during sex and I don't find it the least bit degrading.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376497 - 05/08/08 04:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'll submit during sex
Excellent choice! 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8376503 - 05/08/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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An opportunity to choose with one option to choose from isn't much of a choice.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376512 - 05/08/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Now you're just being delusional. You have plenty of other choices but you somehow end up submitting on purpose.  Now get back to bed!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376546 - 05/08/08 05:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
You are proposing it is degrading due to a specific instance being compared to another instance, and finding the difference "less". Of course, sex means different things to different individuals and takes different forms dependent upon the specifics of the relationship amongst those having sex. Essentially, what you are doing is issuing a value judgment that sex is degrading if it is performed in a certain manner within a certain context. The criteria with which you judge this worth, of course, couldn't be any more subjective and irrelevant unless you are one of the individuals engaged in that instance of sex.
This is about pornography and how human beings are portrayed in it, not sex.
Quote:
Declaring that pornography is degrading is no different than declaring that being amused by the clothes that someone is wearing while observing them walking down the street is demeaning to that individual because it doesn't portray that individual in the full context in which they exist, because one didn't enjoy the qualities the individual has as a thinking, emotive human being, but merely enjoyed one aspect of the way in which they've expressed themselves, etc.
Being "amused by clothing" and treating someone as a sexual object are so entirely different I fail to see how this analogy can be made. Clothing is merely a transient aspect of an individual while only being viewed as sexual object is a judgment on the total individual, and that individual's purpose and value. These are two very different things.
Furthermore, if a person is being treated no differently than clothing, then I would not hesitate to say that they are being degraded.
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Yet we are talking about pornography, and not other types of movies. You can't judge one within the context of another.
The comparison between pornography and other forms of media was used to point out relevant differences.
Quote:
Is a music concert degrading because it does not convey the drummer's reflections on life as a parent? With the logic you have put forth, clearly the drummer is being degraded.
A music concert does not treat a drummer merely as a means to produce music and therefore it is not degrading.
Quote:
You are clearly espousing the value judgment that being submissive is degrading
Being submissive is degrading by definition. "To submit" literally means to lower or reduce.
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recycledsoul
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#8376658 - 05/08/08 07:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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why are we being slaves to a screen when we can experience the truth ourselves. from darkness of ignorance to light of truth. all sorrows eradicated from all the time you spend looking at this kind of neurotic fantasies you could acutlly find a loving relationship that would get you higher than any drug
even bob marley says: take the sun and the moon and the rain and the stars and forever erase your fantasy so its not a question of the girl being degraded, the filmer being degraded the watcher being degraded, there is nothing good in it for anyone. it is corrupting the most pure thing there is in life. really analyze the situation why is there porn? where does it come from people being so ashamed of their own nature, their own energy that they have to hide it. inside the bible they have a playboy magazine hiding. dont you see? maybe you will see someday. you can look at porn all you want, what is the point. even sex without love is not good for anyone, so fake, so against the pyshcadelic experience, which all of you are claiming to have experienced so much. and this is worse than sex without love even, its sex without love and for money! why are you keep serving the system that is oppressing the love, the joy the innocence, the true happiness, the naturalness inside each one of us? why then keep doing fake , empty things? even your truth giving drugs are not working, they may work for a while, but the fog creeps back in. there is a way out. so simple. so happy. bhudda says: there is nothing more destructive in life than passion. luckily there is one thing more intense, the desire to know greater truths.
why keep licking such a small amount of honey of a very sharp knife? one love
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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future
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376787 - 05/08/08 08:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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future said: What about when he sticks it in her ass, fucks the hell out of it, then takes his dick out and demands her to suck on it.
NO THATS NOT DEGRADING/sarcasm.
No act is "inherently degrading".
Your sense of sarcasm is so subtle and full of wit, by the way. 
Quote:
Btw, one way to look at this is this - Sex is becoming more and more porno style because that's what young people are seeing. They see it in a porno and they decide that's what they wanna do next time they have the chance.
Riiight. Could you please elaborate as to how you have objectively determined how sex is becoming? What is your sample size in determining as much?
If as much is true, then its probably a good thing for those having sex.
lol I like your way of looking at it. I should get a girl like you so I can slap her as hard as I can and choke the shit out of her while listening to her elaborate to me why she's not my sexual slave as I pound away at her.
You tell me that some young kid that watches that kind of stuff going on in a porno isn't going to have his perception changed on women.
Get the fuck out.
-------------------- I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
"To submit" literally means to lower or reduce.
Actually, it does not.
Quote:
Submit To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
Sounds like what the majority of us (if not ALL of us) do every single day of our lives. I guess we're all "degraded" by your defintion of the word. 
What I've gathered from your clarification is that the title of this thread should have been:
"Does Pornography Portray Male and Female Characters in a Degrading Manner?"
In answer to this proposed revision of topic, I would say that this is seems to be the intent of many pornographic photos and movies. Definitely not ALL, as not every viewer of porn is interested in degradation. I would say the same thing of many "mainstream" films, which portray humans as cannon fodder or helpless idiots. It seems that humans enjoy watching other humans portray the extremes of human behavior...what a shock!
Edited by Veritas (05/08/08 09:10 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8377660 - 05/08/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Right you are.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: future]
#8377726 - 05/08/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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future said: lol I like your way of looking at it. I should get a girl like you so I can slap her as hard as I can and choke the shit out of her while listening to her elaborate to me why she's not my sexual slave as I pound away at her.
If your idea of a fun time is getting a man like me, pretending its a woman, and performing a sick, disgraceful sense of how sex should be, then feel free. Hopefully you don't find a man willing for that, and also that you don't force him to do it against his will. Whatever floats your boat. 
It certainly isn't my way of looking at it. If you watch that kind of pornography, that's your choice, but I've personally seen some amount of pornography and not very much of it resembles the kind of stuff you've been watching. You still haven't demonstrated any basis for your claim for how sex has been becoming. Still waiting on that one. 
Quote:
You tell me that some young kid that watches that kind of stuff going on in a porno isn't going to have his perception changed on women.
Why would some young kid be watching something like that? Poor parental supervision, perhaps?
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Get the fuck out.
No thanks; I'd rather stay.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: This is about pornography and how human beings are portrayed in it, not sex.
What is pornography but a video recording of sex? You are still issuing a value judgment that sex performed in a certain manner by certain people within a certain context (pornography) is of a lesser value than other instances of sex.
Ultimately I think this is nothing more than elitism. Your conception of sex has to be the correct one, and if it isn't, it is somehow degrading of those involved and the act of sex itself, because it doesn't measure up to your expressed standard.
Quote:
Being "amused by clothing" and treating someone as a sexual object are so entirely different I fail to see how this analogy can be made. Clothing is merely a transient aspect of an individual while only being viewed as sexual object is a judgment on the total individual, and that individual's purpose and value. These are two very different things.
Expressing oneself through clothing and expressing oneself through sex are as equally as transient. The point that you missed is that no act or occurrence can convey the entirety of an individual's character or quality. You've proposed that getting off on seeing people have sex through pornography is degrading because those involved in having sex are simply the means by which one gets off and that one does not assign more meaning to those involved than that.
My point is that, simply laughing at the amusing way in which someone dresses as they walk by is no different. The person and their dress is simply a means by which one laughs. The person isn't assigned more meaning than that in the instance because they are simply passing by. Laughing at someone's clothes as they pass isn't a judgment on the total individual anymore than getting off on watching someone have sex.
Do you think very many people watch pornography and specifically state "The woman in this pornography is only a sexual object and nothing more!"? Since when does appreciating aspects of an individual's existence as an object translate into a judgment that the entirety of their being and existence is limited to those aspects?
Quote:
The comparison between pornography and other forms of media was used to point out relevant differences.
The differences are irrelevant. Different art forms have distinct expressions through different manners as others. You cannot judge the merits of country-western music through a hard rock perspective, nor could you judge the merits of pornography through a Hollywood blockbuster lens.
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A music concert does not treat a drummer merely as a means to produce music and therefore it is not degrading.
So, the fans pay for tickets to the shows in order for the drummer to demonstrate his fabulous cooking skills? The only reason the drummer is there is as a means to produce music. Not because he's only a great guy. People don't get hired by a corporation because they only have depth of character and quality. I just noticed your "merely", but I fail to understand how anything regarding pornography necessarily implies that those involved are being treated any differently than the drummer.
Quote:
Being submissive is degrading by definition. "To submit" literally means to lower or reduce.
No it doesn't. Searching dictionary.com, I find over thirty definitions of the word submit, and not one refers to a lowering or a reduction. You're projecting your judgment over an act that simply means to yield.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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TheCow
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Does Pornography Degrade Women
only the good kind...
I havent read any of this thread, so if anyone already made that joke, please feel free to delete their post
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8382212 - 05/09/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Submit" is a combination of the Latin word "sub" meaning under and "mitto" or "mittere" meaning to send, move, displace, etc. Thus, "to submit" is to lower or reduce something. Additionally, you cannot remove my use of the word submission from its context. "To offer as a proposition or contention" is a definition of submission, too. When I used the word submission, I implied that someone had been reduced in value by another person.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/09/08 03:38 PM)
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fireworks_god
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The archaic origins of a word have no dominion on the meaning the word has now. I've seen no definition of the word that suggests that submitting means to lower oneself. I think you're really reaching with this. Additionally, the manner in which you chose to assign meaning to the word doesn't mean that it reflects what occurs in pornography. Of course, you're attempting to issue a value judgment on a h-u-g-e generalization. Not much room for success in doing so.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: TheCow]
#8382310 - 05/09/08 04:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Does Pornography Degrade Women
only the good kind...
I havent read any of this thread, so if anyone already made that joke, please feel free to delete their post
No dude, you delete yours as you are so late to the party. I already said:
Quote:
If it doesn't, what is the point?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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You are interpreting the etymology incorrectly, as is clearly shown by the relevant dictionary defintions of "submit." To submit is to put (mitto) oneself under (sub) the authority or will of another, and does not mean lowered or reduced in value.
We all submit to another's authority in one way or another every day, and this does not mean that we have been inherently lowered in value or dignity. There is no basis for your alternative definition of "submit." If you extend this incorrect definition, those who dominate are more valuable, and domination protects one's value from being reduced by others.
Edited by Veritas (05/09/08 04:25 PM)
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capliberty
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8382899 - 05/09/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think porn can be positive and negative like drugs. The only porn I like is the degrading stuff the rest is fodder.
Also I disagree that its only degrading when that acting parties choose to feel degraded. Thats acting.
The degradation occurs say when the a female gets a big surprise and gets more than what she's bargining for. Thats what peeks male arousal. YOU KNOW I SPEAK THE TRUTH.
Anyone got some passwords?
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TheCow
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bitch, what did I say
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BigJonMud
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: TheCow]
#8390132 - 05/11/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Men have dragged women by the hair back to their caves for centuries.
Women love getting fucked the way they do in porn. Im sad for men who havent learnt this.
To me, theres no argument. Its all a part ot the polarity of the universe, and with sex as the procreative energy underlying all of it.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: BigJonMud]
#8390377 - 05/11/08 07:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Men have dragged women by the hair back to their caves for centuries.
Men used to drag women by the feet and then they would get full of dirt until Gnarg figured out a better way; in some ways a more important breakthrough than fire.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
No dude, you delete yours as you are so late to the party. I already said:
Quote:
If it doesn't, what is the point?
Yes... but how come nobody has told the MOST OBVIOUS joke of 'em all?
Ketchup or Mustard?
Practice safe snacks, kids... and remember to use a condiment!

If somebody has already told this joke they can delete their post. I haven't read any of this thread.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (05/11/08 08:05 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Rose]
#8390486 - 05/11/08 08:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Women generally prefer tropical over mint flavor.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8391326 - 05/12/08 12:56 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok, ok, ok, ok, fine. Since the equivocation spree continues on, I'll make it easier for the both of you to address my argument rather than my choice of wording. Replace the word "submission" with the word "subservient" or the phrase "in lower importance or value."
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OrgoneConclusion
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You cannot undo the past.
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MushmanTheManic
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XbollweevilX
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: AnarchoTrip]
#8391486 - 05/12/08 02:04 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Mustard FTW
-------------------- There is no such thing as a civilian.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Ok, ok, ok, ok, fine. Since the equivocation spree continues on, I'll make it easier for the both of you to address my argument rather than my choice of wording. Replace the word "submission" with the word "subservient" or the phrase "in lower importance or value."
Perhaps it would be even easier still, if you did the word processing yourself... and rephrased your own thought.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Rose]
#8391588 - 05/12/08 03:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't follow.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Ok, ok, ok, ok, fine. Since the equivocation spree continues on, I'll make it easier for the both of you to address my argument rather than my choice of wording. Replace the word "submission" with the word "subservient" or the phrase "in lower importance or value."
How 'bout you do it yourself?
Understand now?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Rose]
#8391594 - 05/12/08 03:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Argue with myself?
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
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No. Don't argue with yourself, dummy!
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Icelander
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
He's right, this thread is forever tarnished. You messed up dude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Ok, ok, ok, ok, fine. Since the equivocation spree continues on, I'll make it easier for the both of you to address my argument rather than my choice of wording. Replace the word "submission" with the word "subservient" or the phrase "in lower importance or value."
You are still making assumptions. Your perception may be that all pornography portrays women as being subservient, and that this is degrading, but this is not necessarily the fact of the matter. If your argument is that specific types of pornography which portray specific women being abused or abased are degrading to the specific actors who are participating in the scene, then I agree with you. As to any generalization of this quality of degradation to ALL porn or ALL women, I must disagree.
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SmutFangirl
Stranger


Registered: 05/16/15
Posts: 1
Loc: USA
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
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I think everyone likes porn, it's just that most of it out there is really bad and presents women as objects rather than equal participants. I'ts all got to do with the way it's presented. Hot guys getting girls off is not the norm in porn-land, but if there was more content geared towards turning women on I think the world would be a much better place!
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: SmutFangirl]
#21689223 - 05/17/15 02:53 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think both men and women objectify sexually attractive men and women. I also think it's a natural part of being human and not a moral issue. I don't think it degrades women at all. If it was against their will I would say it degrades women, but since they are willingly a participant I would argue that pornography empowers women, not degrade them.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Pornography in itself, filming sexual intercourse, doesn't degrade women, for example a homemade film made by a couple that love each other or even just two people having casual sex, is not necessarily degrading, although i wouldn't watch it if you paid me to let alone pay to watch it myself!
Immigrants hiring native people to carry out sex acts on each other for money, directing them to do as they please, then creating an industry out of it through mass distribution in the native land as a way of social engineering, is degrading
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Edited by Chronic7 (05/17/15 03:29 AM)
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#21689244 - 05/17/15 03:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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So because it's an immigrant it's degrading? I'm not following your logic here.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Here in the UK we have lots of eastern European immigration, most of them come here and work hard and thus contribute to the British society, they emmigrate for better opportunities for themselves and their families, you get the odd bad apple but when compared to the locals they generally cause less trouble, i can't say 'they steal our jobs' as a vast majority of Brits are workshy state dependants
They generally don't emmigrate with the goal of enslaving the forgein nation in debt, passing disgusting tripe off as art/entertainment, controlling the press & bribing/blackmailing politicians towards wars which they profit from, immigrants that do do this i find their motives highly questionable
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#21689319 - 05/17/15 04:01 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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So are immigrants who work low wage jobs and other immigrant work degraded? Or is it a job that pays and someone is going to do it?
The conspiracy stuff has nothing to do with this you can leave it out.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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If you're incinuating that people are going to mass market and distrubute porn anyway, i just don't agree with that
If you're wanting to just have a discussion about the ins & outs of immigration than the thread is derailing, peace
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Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: thedudenj]
#21712666 - 05/23/15 12:27 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thedudenj said: lol i know too many women that love their porno and would be mad if they didnt have it
ya and I bet those woman are non-attractive weirdos.
Yes, porno does degrade woman. Very much so.
That's not all it does, either..
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21713048 - 05/23/15 05:16 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bill_Oreilly said: Yes, porno does degrade woman. Very much so.

Or should I say O'reilly?

I'm curious how porn degrades women.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
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it helps objectify them.
obviously someone recording a wife and husband having regular sex is whatever...but when you record 3 dudes fucking every hole a girl has and smacks her calling her a dirty whore and the whole 9...I don't know how that doesn't degrade them...
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21713267 - 05/23/15 07:16 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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People objectify each other all day everyday. Men do it to women, women do it to men. Objectifying the other gender for sex purposes is how it works. Sex drive has nothing to do with "what movies we might have in common." Connecting intimately on a relationship level what movies you both like might matter.
Porn doesn't objectify women, having a dick does.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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I'm going to have to agree with C_S. Truth is, everyone's giving everyone an objective "score" all the time. Whether we even realize it or not, all of us are assessing a person's beauty/sex appeal or lack thereof constantly. It's just something humans do. Blaming pornography, when there is this ubiquitous objectifying instinct, is like saying rap albums with explicit lyrics are the reason people swear. Spurious.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21714273 - 05/23/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bill_Oreilly said: it helps objectify them.
obviously someone recording a wife and husband having regular sex is whatever...but when you record 3 dudes fucking every hole a girl has and smacks her calling her a dirty whore and the whole 9...I don't know how that doesn't degrade them...
I'd say this degrades men just the same. We all go down a peg in my books.  hth
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21714521 - 05/23/15 03:19 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bill_Oreilly said: it helps objectify them.
obviously someone recording a wife and husband having regular sex is whatever...but when you record 3 dudes fucking every hole a girl has and smacks her calling her a dirty whore and the whole 9...I don't know how that doesn't degrade them...
O'Reilly and Luffa FTW! 
http://gawker.com/5380802/happy-bill-oreilly-loofah-day
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Tropism]
#21714528 - 05/23/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
We all go down a peg in my books.
Only afterwards.
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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


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Femdom.
Nope.
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Titus_Pullo


Registered: 01/23/10
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Beanhead]
#21715098 - 05/23/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Porn is degrading. Anyone who sells their body for sex is degrading themselves. Sometimes they don't consider it degrading because they already have no sense of self-worth. Initially sex can be quite vapid, but the goal I believe is to have a uniting experience with another person. There is nothing better than fucking when you're in love.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21715178 - 05/23/15 06:44 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bill_Oreilly said: it helps objectify them.
How does it do that?
Quote:
obviously someone recording a wife and husband having regular sex is whatever...but when you record 3 dudes fucking every hole a girl has and smacks her calling her a dirty whore and the whole 9...I don't know how that doesn't degrade them...
Do you know how it does degrade them?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#21715185 - 05/23/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Titus_Pullo said: Porn is degrading. Anyone who sells their body for sex is degrading themselves.
Those are nice declarative statements you've got there. Be a shame if logic came and busted them up.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Thaj
:-)

Registered: 04/30/15
Posts: 142
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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I much prefer amateur movies than the real porn. It degrades human being and it is very sad to see young guys copying what they see when having sex.
-------------------- There is no real sin but lessons yet to be learned. ----------------------------------------------------
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