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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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At least the women got paid for it.
I only got walked in on while stroking myself with one hand and turning a Playboy page with the other.
I felt much more degraded than the girl on the page.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8376441 - 05/08/08 03:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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NiamhNyx said: You have a fair point. However, the representations we see of those we associate ourselves with affects how we regard ourselves. If little girls grow up with few or no female role models aside from Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and then are exposed to the kind of pornography that depicts women as fuckbags, they are going to model themselves around those representations. Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, but it is also pretty unreasonable to expect someone who's only been exposed to a limited range of influences to turn out radically different than what they were exposed to. If the dominant model of femininity is what it is, a majority of girls are going to continue to model themselves in that image. If we wish to raise strong, independent and intelligent girls who are in charge of thier own sexual expression we're going to have to provide more role models that present themselves that way both in real life and in the media.
Marx said something akin to "we are free to choose, but our choices are limited by our circumstances." (I forgot the exact quote and this one may be radically different from what he actually said, but the general idea is the same. What he said probably sounded more eloquent.)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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MushmanTheManic said: I believe that most pornography, with the exception of some softcore videos, degrades the women, the men, and the sexual act itself. What I am discussing here is the video itself and what happens from the time the video begins to the time it ends.
By "degrade" I mean that something is portrayed as having lesser worth or value than than it ordinarily would have in other contexts or situations.
You are proposing it is degrading due to a specific instance being compared to another instance, and finding the difference "less". Of course, sex means different things to different individuals and takes different forms dependent upon the specifics of the relationship amongst those having sex. Essentially, what you are doing is issuing a value judgment that sex is degrading if it is performed in a certain manner within a certain context. The criteria with which you judge this worth, of course, couldn't be any more subjective and irrelevant unless you are one of the individuals engaged in that instance of sex.
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Just as art is degraded when it is regarded only as a trade, human beings are degraded when they are regarded only as a object of sexual gratification.
The idea that if a specific instance or occurrence does not convey the totality of a human being's nature, quality, or meaning, then it is degrading of that individual, is nonsense. Declaring that pornography is degrading is no different than declaring that being amused by the clothes that someone is wearing while observing them walking down the street is demeaning to that individual because it doesn't portray that individual in the full context in which they exist, because one didn't enjoy the qualities the individual has as a thinking, emotive human being, but merely enjoyed one aspect of the way in which they've expressed themselves, etc.
The fact is that human beings are objects, and the simple fact that they are more than objects does not mean that it is degrading to regard them purely at that level, as doing so does not deny or nullify any other aspect of their character, quality, or nature.
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In most films, even Hollywood films, the characters are appreciated for the various human qualities that they have. There may be sexual scenes in these movies, but most people appreciate the film, as well as the characters, for reasons other than sex.
Yet we are talking about pornography, and not other types of movies. You can't judge one within the context of another. Is a music concert degrading because it does not convey the drummer's reflections on life as a parent? With the logic you have put forth, clearly the drummer is being degraded.
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To add to the degradation, the female characters are usually portrayed as submissive to the male characters, which automatically places them in a lower rank and power.
You are clearly espousing the value judgment that being submissive is degrading, but there is no rational explanation put forth as to why this should be the case. I'll submit during sex and I don't find it the least bit degrading.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376497 - 05/08/08 04:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'll submit during sex
Excellent choice! 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8376503 - 05/08/08 04:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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An opportunity to choose with one option to choose from isn't much of a choice.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376512 - 05/08/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Now you're just being delusional. You have plenty of other choices but you somehow end up submitting on purpose.  Now get back to bed!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376546 - 05/08/08 05:38 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
You are proposing it is degrading due to a specific instance being compared to another instance, and finding the difference "less". Of course, sex means different things to different individuals and takes different forms dependent upon the specifics of the relationship amongst those having sex. Essentially, what you are doing is issuing a value judgment that sex is degrading if it is performed in a certain manner within a certain context. The criteria with which you judge this worth, of course, couldn't be any more subjective and irrelevant unless you are one of the individuals engaged in that instance of sex.
This is about pornography and how human beings are portrayed in it, not sex.
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Declaring that pornography is degrading is no different than declaring that being amused by the clothes that someone is wearing while observing them walking down the street is demeaning to that individual because it doesn't portray that individual in the full context in which they exist, because one didn't enjoy the qualities the individual has as a thinking, emotive human being, but merely enjoyed one aspect of the way in which they've expressed themselves, etc.
Being "amused by clothing" and treating someone as a sexual object are so entirely different I fail to see how this analogy can be made. Clothing is merely a transient aspect of an individual while only being viewed as sexual object is a judgment on the total individual, and that individual's purpose and value. These are two very different things.
Furthermore, if a person is being treated no differently than clothing, then I would not hesitate to say that they are being degraded.
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Yet we are talking about pornography, and not other types of movies. You can't judge one within the context of another.
The comparison between pornography and other forms of media was used to point out relevant differences.
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Is a music concert degrading because it does not convey the drummer's reflections on life as a parent? With the logic you have put forth, clearly the drummer is being degraded.
A music concert does not treat a drummer merely as a means to produce music and therefore it is not degrading.
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You are clearly espousing the value judgment that being submissive is degrading
Being submissive is degrading by definition. "To submit" literally means to lower or reduce.
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recycledsoul
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#8376658 - 05/08/08 07:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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why are we being slaves to a screen when we can experience the truth ourselves. from darkness of ignorance to light of truth. all sorrows eradicated from all the time you spend looking at this kind of neurotic fantasies you could acutlly find a loving relationship that would get you higher than any drug
even bob marley says: take the sun and the moon and the rain and the stars and forever erase your fantasy so its not a question of the girl being degraded, the filmer being degraded the watcher being degraded, there is nothing good in it for anyone. it is corrupting the most pure thing there is in life. really analyze the situation why is there porn? where does it come from people being so ashamed of their own nature, their own energy that they have to hide it. inside the bible they have a playboy magazine hiding. dont you see? maybe you will see someday. you can look at porn all you want, what is the point. even sex without love is not good for anyone, so fake, so against the pyshcadelic experience, which all of you are claiming to have experienced so much. and this is worse than sex without love even, its sex without love and for money! why are you keep serving the system that is oppressing the love, the joy the innocence, the true happiness, the naturalness inside each one of us? why then keep doing fake , empty things? even your truth giving drugs are not working, they may work for a while, but the fog creeps back in. there is a way out. so simple. so happy. bhudda says: there is nothing more destructive in life than passion. luckily there is one thing more intense, the desire to know greater truths.
why keep licking such a small amount of honey of a very sharp knife? one love
-------------------- Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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future
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8376787 - 05/08/08 08:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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future said: What about when he sticks it in her ass, fucks the hell out of it, then takes his dick out and demands her to suck on it.
NO THATS NOT DEGRADING/sarcasm.
No act is "inherently degrading".
Your sense of sarcasm is so subtle and full of wit, by the way. 
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Btw, one way to look at this is this - Sex is becoming more and more porno style because that's what young people are seeing. They see it in a porno and they decide that's what they wanna do next time they have the chance.
Riiight. Could you please elaborate as to how you have objectively determined how sex is becoming? What is your sample size in determining as much?
If as much is true, then its probably a good thing for those having sex.
lol I like your way of looking at it. I should get a girl like you so I can slap her as hard as I can and choke the shit out of her while listening to her elaborate to me why she's not my sexual slave as I pound away at her.
You tell me that some young kid that watches that kind of stuff going on in a porno isn't going to have his perception changed on women.
Get the fuck out.
-------------------- I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
"To submit" literally means to lower or reduce.
Actually, it does not.
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Submit To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
Sounds like what the majority of us (if not ALL of us) do every single day of our lives. I guess we're all "degraded" by your defintion of the word. 
What I've gathered from your clarification is that the title of this thread should have been:
"Does Pornography Portray Male and Female Characters in a Degrading Manner?"
In answer to this proposed revision of topic, I would say that this is seems to be the intent of many pornographic photos and movies. Definitely not ALL, as not every viewer of porn is interested in degradation. I would say the same thing of many "mainstream" films, which portray humans as cannon fodder or helpless idiots. It seems that humans enjoy watching other humans portray the extremes of human behavior...what a shock!
Edited by Veritas (05/08/08 09:10 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8377660 - 05/08/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Right you are.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: future]
#8377726 - 05/08/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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future said: lol I like your way of looking at it. I should get a girl like you so I can slap her as hard as I can and choke the shit out of her while listening to her elaborate to me why she's not my sexual slave as I pound away at her.
If your idea of a fun time is getting a man like me, pretending its a woman, and performing a sick, disgraceful sense of how sex should be, then feel free. Hopefully you don't find a man willing for that, and also that you don't force him to do it against his will. Whatever floats your boat. 
It certainly isn't my way of looking at it. If you watch that kind of pornography, that's your choice, but I've personally seen some amount of pornography and not very much of it resembles the kind of stuff you've been watching. You still haven't demonstrated any basis for your claim for how sex has been becoming. Still waiting on that one. 
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You tell me that some young kid that watches that kind of stuff going on in a porno isn't going to have his perception changed on women.
Why would some young kid be watching something like that? Poor parental supervision, perhaps?
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Get the fuck out.
No thanks; I'd rather stay.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: This is about pornography and how human beings are portrayed in it, not sex.
What is pornography but a video recording of sex? You are still issuing a value judgment that sex performed in a certain manner by certain people within a certain context (pornography) is of a lesser value than other instances of sex.
Ultimately I think this is nothing more than elitism. Your conception of sex has to be the correct one, and if it isn't, it is somehow degrading of those involved and the act of sex itself, because it doesn't measure up to your expressed standard.
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Being "amused by clothing" and treating someone as a sexual object are so entirely different I fail to see how this analogy can be made. Clothing is merely a transient aspect of an individual while only being viewed as sexual object is a judgment on the total individual, and that individual's purpose and value. These are two very different things.
Expressing oneself through clothing and expressing oneself through sex are as equally as transient. The point that you missed is that no act or occurrence can convey the entirety of an individual's character or quality. You've proposed that getting off on seeing people have sex through pornography is degrading because those involved in having sex are simply the means by which one gets off and that one does not assign more meaning to those involved than that.
My point is that, simply laughing at the amusing way in which someone dresses as they walk by is no different. The person and their dress is simply a means by which one laughs. The person isn't assigned more meaning than that in the instance because they are simply passing by. Laughing at someone's clothes as they pass isn't a judgment on the total individual anymore than getting off on watching someone have sex.
Do you think very many people watch pornography and specifically state "The woman in this pornography is only a sexual object and nothing more!"? Since when does appreciating aspects of an individual's existence as an object translate into a judgment that the entirety of their being and existence is limited to those aspects?
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The comparison between pornography and other forms of media was used to point out relevant differences.
The differences are irrelevant. Different art forms have distinct expressions through different manners as others. You cannot judge the merits of country-western music through a hard rock perspective, nor could you judge the merits of pornography through a Hollywood blockbuster lens.
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A music concert does not treat a drummer merely as a means to produce music and therefore it is not degrading.
So, the fans pay for tickets to the shows in order for the drummer to demonstrate his fabulous cooking skills? The only reason the drummer is there is as a means to produce music. Not because he's only a great guy. People don't get hired by a corporation because they only have depth of character and quality. I just noticed your "merely", but I fail to understand how anything regarding pornography necessarily implies that those involved are being treated any differently than the drummer.
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Being submissive is degrading by definition. "To submit" literally means to lower or reduce.
No it doesn't. Searching dictionary.com, I find over thirty definitions of the word submit, and not one refers to a lowering or a reduction. You're projecting your judgment over an act that simply means to yield.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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TheCow
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Registered: 10/28/02
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Does Pornography Degrade Women
only the good kind...
I havent read any of this thread, so if anyone already made that joke, please feel free to delete their post
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8382212 - 05/09/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Submit" is a combination of the Latin word "sub" meaning under and "mitto" or "mittere" meaning to send, move, displace, etc. Thus, "to submit" is to lower or reduce something. Additionally, you cannot remove my use of the word submission from its context. "To offer as a proposition or contention" is a definition of submission, too. When I used the word submission, I implied that someone had been reduced in value by another person.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/09/08 03:38 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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The archaic origins of a word have no dominion on the meaning the word has now. I've seen no definition of the word that suggests that submitting means to lower oneself. I think you're really reaching with this. Additionally, the manner in which you chose to assign meaning to the word doesn't mean that it reflects what occurs in pornography. Of course, you're attempting to issue a value judgment on a h-u-g-e generalization. Not much room for success in doing so.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: TheCow]
#8382310 - 05/09/08 04:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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TheCow said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Does Pornography Degrade Women
only the good kind...
I havent read any of this thread, so if anyone already made that joke, please feel free to delete their post
No dude, you delete yours as you are so late to the party. I already said:
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If it doesn't, what is the point?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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You are interpreting the etymology incorrectly, as is clearly shown by the relevant dictionary defintions of "submit." To submit is to put (mitto) oneself under (sub) the authority or will of another, and does not mean lowered or reduced in value.
We all submit to another's authority in one way or another every day, and this does not mean that we have been inherently lowered in value or dignity. There is no basis for your alternative definition of "submit." If you extend this incorrect definition, those who dominate are more valuable, and domination protects one's value from being reduced by others.
Edited by Veritas (05/09/08 04:25 PM)
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capliberty
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8382899 - 05/09/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think porn can be positive and negative like drugs. The only porn I like is the degrading stuff the rest is fodder.
Also I disagree that its only degrading when that acting parties choose to feel degraded. Thats acting.
The degradation occurs say when the a female gets a big surprise and gets more than what she's bargining for. Thats what peeks male arousal. YOU KNOW I SPEAK THE TRUTH.
Anyone got some passwords?
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TheCow
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bitch, what did I say
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