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Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: AnarchoTrip]
#8372189 - 05/07/08 08:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, pornography more often than not, degrades women in my eyes. That's how I like it though. I seem to lack respect for women as a majority. Most I don't find useful other than for sex, which is probably why I haven't fucked in over 3 years.
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Chronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Boots]
#8372204 - 05/07/08 08:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sounds like you got issues with your mother
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I try to analyze an aspect of pornography, using a position taken by some feminists no less, and suddenly I'm a misogynists that thinks women are worthless. Yikes!
To be clear, I was never discussing "women in general." I'm only concerned with the women in pornography. Nor did I ever mention anything about "inherent worth" or a woman's "value forever being lowered." That is all straw that you threw into my argument. Projection, indeed.
The so-called "straw" I included in my post is from the actual definition of "degrade," which you said was what happened to women as an inherent function of pornography. You never stated that you meant ONLY women who perform in X-rated movies, and you specified that porn was "inherently degrading." The title of your thread AND your subsequent comments indicate that you were discussing women in general, and this is the first post in which you have stated that all women who are NOT adult movie stars are exempted from this "inherent degradation."
If you clearly state the parameters of your argument at the start, you will have responses to THAT argument. If you muddy the waters by using general terms, insisting upon the definition of a particular word, and assuming that YOUR perception of the inherent quality of an action is the CORRECT and ONLY factual quality therein, you will receive the responses you've already gotten.
It is absurd to state that your idea of what goes on in pornography is both accurate and inherently degrading. How can you confidently state that every woman who performs in a pornographic scene is degraded because
1. She is submissive 2. She is "only" there to have a dick stuck in her 3. Her only purpose is to provide pleasure for the man?
Can't you see that these are all your assumptions, and not necessarily a factual description of what goes on? And then, you go on to state that all of these conditions are inherently degrading by definition. I've already posted the possible definitions of "degrade," and I would like you to tell me which one is "inherent" in the action of performing in a porno.
Edited by Veritas (05/07/08 09:17 AM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic7]
#8372329 - 05/07/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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if i ever find porno jim again... i wil be in one of his movies, sometimes people tell me that i would look good in a porno, i dont think i would feel degraded but ill make sure that women i do does lol
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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jkeps
Mushaman



Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 59
Loc: Near Portland, Oregon
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: AnarchoTrip]
#8372987 - 05/07/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Last time I checked, and I do check often, women weren't the stars of pornography... a gay, male porn star gets paid so much more for what they do than a female porn star.
Then there are the male porn stars FOR women... they make a pretty penny too.
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We are always acting on what has just finished happening. It happened at least 1/30th of a second ago. We think we’re in the present, but we aren’t. The present we know is only a movie of the past
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: jkeps]
#8372997 - 05/07/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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wow, personally i wouldnt sell out being a porno would just be getting paid to do what i would do anyway ^.^ i think all porn people should be doing it that way. it gives a way better feel to the stuff.
which i now raise that porn where they are doing it just for money of course is degrading as where its just people doing it to do it and the money is a plus is awesome and not!!!!
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
Edited by thedudenj (05/07/08 12:48 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated


Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: thedudenj]
#8373431 - 05/07/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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>>>>Something about a 'squirting orgasm' is perfectly nasty.
Seems perfectly nice to me.
Right on. Spray it don't say it.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: johnm214]
#8373815 - 05/07/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
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learningtofly said: First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
In order for the OPs post to make any sense. He's assuming that porn is specifically for men and that women are totally against it. And honestly, porn is not degrading at all. As was stated before, an act itself is not degrading, the only way it is degrading is if YOU project it.
The discussion is on the question presented, and I fail to see how valid a presumption that porn is exclusivly a male-consumed product affects the discussion?
That was my point, in order for the OP's ORIGINAL idea to make sense, we would have to assume that women dont like porn... which is not true.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8373980 - 05/07/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't think it's necessary to assume that no women like porn in order to put forward a reasonable feminist critique of it. People like all kinds of things that ultimately place the in a position of subservience and subjugation, which isn't to say that I believe porn does this universally, but rather that when it comes to critiquing it, it doesn't matter one damn bit whether some or even many women like it. Some people get off on being shat on, and it seems that the whole point of that is that it's degrading.
Many women like some porn, or theoretically like porn but have not seen much that's up to par. I personally fall into the latter category. I think it's fair to say that most mainstream porn depicts women as fuckbags and that much of it is ultimately more or less degrading. I also think it's possible to make porn that is not degrading, that celebrates female sexuality and depicts women in roles of power and agency, I just haven't seen it. Granted, I haven't tried too hard.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8374034 - 05/07/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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How is a photo or video of two (or more) actors engaged in WHATEVER, somehow degrading to women in general? What does this paid performance have to do with the dignity/worth of anyone else? 
I've heard so many feminists exclaiming over pornography and "slutty" actresses/models/singers, and how they are degrading women in general. This is absurd, IMO, as the "poor" choices made by individual women have little to do with the qualities of 51% of the world's population. If we truly own our sexuality, then we own the decision to be submissive, to be slutty, to be subjugated, to engage in "degrading" activities, and NO ONE else is responsible for these choices.
Who are you to decide that the only "celebration" of female sexuality is one in which women are in positions of power and agency? Female sexuality is whatever women DO and enjoy, and that includes submission. It also includes exhibition, which is probably why many women act in adult movies. Bringing pleasure to your partner is something both sexes get off on, so it is not accurate to state that a "one-sided" porno scene cannot be a celebration.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8374060 - 05/07/08 05:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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You have a fair point. However, the representations we see of those we associate ourselves with affects how we regard ourselves. If little girls grow up with few or no female role models aside from Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and then are exposed to the kind of pornography that depicts women as fuckbags, they are going to model themselves around those representations. Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, but it is also pretty unreasonable to expect someone who's only been exposed to a limited range of influences to turn out radically different than what they were exposed to. If the dominant model of femininity is what it is, a majority of girls are going to continue to model themselves in that image. If we wish to raise strong, independent and intelligent girls who are in charge of thier own sexual expression we're going to have to provide more role models that present themselves that way both in real life and in the media.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8374087 - 05/07/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sound like the issue is not that a few women are choosing to express their sexuality in a commercialized manner, but that "ordinary" women are not presenting alternative models for the next generation. The totally in-your-face gratuituous sexuality we see in the media and porn is the inevitable result of sexual repression. Freud had some wacky ideas, but IMO he was right about the Libido. Our life force will be expressed, and if the natural expression is criticized and shut down, it will be expressed in exaggerated ways.
If individual women want their daughters to question the role models being presented in the media, they would do better to encourage analysis rather than bitching about how "slutty" Britney Spears looks. They could raise critical thinkers rather than competitive, sniping, self-hating backstabbers. It's always amazed me to sit down with a group of women who promote themselves as feminists, and then listen to them hate on women who supposedly "undermine" their agenda. It's exactly this kind of thinking which prevents women from cooperating to gain power.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8374152 - 05/07/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: How is a photo or video of two (or more) actors engaged in WHATEVER, somehow degrading to women in general? What does this paid performance have to do with the dignity/worth of anyone else? 
I've heard so many feminists exclaiming over pornography and "slutty" actresses/models/singers, and how they are degrading women in general. This is absurd, IMO, as the "poor" choices made by individual women have little to do with the qualities of 51% of the world's population. If we truly own our sexuality, then we own the decision to be submissive, to be slutty, to be subjugated, to engage in "degrading" activities, and NO ONE else is responsible for these choices.
Who are you to decide that the only "celebration" of female sexuality is one in which women are in positions of power and agency? Female sexuality is whatever women DO and enjoy, and that includes submission. It also includes exhibition, which is probably why many women act in adult movies. Bringing pleasure to your partner is something both sexes get off on, so it is not accurate to state that a "one-sided" porno scene cannot be a celebration.
Having known you personally as well as at this forum I will say without reservation that you have the healthiest attitude about sexuality that I have ever come across. Bar none and by far. You are awesome Veritas, not to mention very emotionally healthy. or should I say,
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8374171 - 05/07/08 06:04 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree with you completely! Well said.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Boots]
#8374220 - 05/07/08 06:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does Pornography Degrade Women?
If it doesn't, what is the point?
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future
Stranger
Registered: 12/05/07
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: fireworks_god]
#8374546 - 05/07/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
Please, this is nonsense. Did you know that having a dick inside a woman gives the woman sexual pleasure?
Isn't the man in pornography simply the means to the woman's sexual pleasure, thereby making the man equally as "inherently degraded"? You qualify that the women are clearly submissive, so essentially who is on top determines which one is being degraded and used?
Human beings form relationships with each other. The nature of that relationship is dependent upon the ways in which the individuals choose to relate. You are proposing the idea that if two (or more ) individuals choose to interact with each other in a manner that only exists on one level, simply for mutual sexual pleasure, one of the individuals is being degraded. Once more, this is nonsense!
What about when he sticks it in her ass, fucks the hell out of it, then takes his dick out and demands her to suck on it.
NO THATS NOT DEGRADING/sarcasm.
Btw, one way to look at this is this - Sex is becoming more and more porno style because that's what young people are seeing. They see it in a porno and they decide that's what they wanna do next time they have the chance.
-------------------- I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: future]
#8374825 - 05/07/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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So what if he does? What if a girl fucks a guy with a strap-on? I know a guy who did it because he was curious, he wasn't degraded. It's only degrading when you the observer make up this crazy idea that its degrading.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: future]
#8376253 - 05/08/08 02:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
future said: What about when he sticks it in her ass, fucks the hell out of it, then takes his dick out and demands her to suck on it.
NO THATS NOT DEGRADING/sarcasm.
No act is "inherently degrading".
Your sense of sarcasm is so subtle and full of wit, by the way. 
Quote:
Btw, one way to look at this is this - Sex is becoming more and more porno style because that's what young people are seeing. They see it in a porno and they decide that's what they wanna do next time they have the chance.
Riiight. Could you please elaborate as to how you have objectively determined how sex is becoming? What is your sample size in determining as much?
If as much is true, then its probably a good thing for those having sex.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8376402 - 05/08/08 03:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago) |
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I admit I was too vague in this thread and have received a number of irrelevant responses because of this. I originally started arguing this point on another website and forgot to carry the premises of that argument over to this one. My bad. Lets try this again.
The question is: Does pornography degrade women?
I believe that most pornography, with the exception of some softcore videos, degrades the women, the men, and the sexual act itself. What I am discussing here is the video itself and what happens from the time the video begins to the time it ends. (Whatever happens outside of the video is irrelevant to me at this point, but the effects of pornography would make another interesting debate.)
By "degrade" I mean that something is portrayed as having lesser worth or value than than it ordinarily would have in other contexts or situations.
Quote:
To Abase, Debase, Degrade. These words agree in the idea of bringing down from a higher to a lower state. Abase has reference to a bringing down in condition or feelings; as, to abase the proud, to abase one's self before God. Debase has reference to the bringing down of a thing in purity, or making it base. It is, therefore, always used in a bad sense, as, to debase the coin of the kingdom, to debase the mind by vicious indulgence, to debase one's style by coarse or vulgar expressions. Degrade has reference to a bringing down from some higher grade or from some standard. Thus, a priest is degraded from the clerical office. When used in a moral sense, it denotes a bringing down in character and just estimation; as, degraded by intemperance, a degrading employment, etc. "Art is degraded when it is regarded only as a trade."
Just as art is degraded when it is regarded only as a trade, human beings are degraded when they are regarded only as a object of sexual gratification. Furthermore, according to Kant, an action that treats a human being merely as a means and not an end is immoral. For example, Ford treated humanity merely as a means to profit and not an end in itself when it failed to recall the Pinto. (They were aware that the gas tank would explode in almost any rear-end collision, but figured that the cost of settling lawsuits would be cheaper than recalling the Pinto.)
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The basic idea is that some actions unacceptably treat a person as a means because they separate out some physical aspect of the person for use or gratification. They are wrong, not because they eclipse reasoned willing, but because they ignore the individual's physical-spiritual integrity and diminish the person's dignity by locating his or her value in a body part or activity.
In most pornographic videos, the value of the women (as well as the men) are reduced to their sexual organs and the activity of sex. Remember, I'm dealing exclusively with the images in the video itself. The actors might not be degraded, but I believe their characters certainly are. The value of these characters are measured by their sexual organs and the only thing they appear to value themselves is the activity of sex. The fact that they're human beings is almost irrelevant. In most films, even Hollywood films, the characters are appreciated for the various human qualities that they have. There may be sexual scenes in these movies, but most people appreciate the film, as well as the characters, for reasons other than sex. In pornography, the characters are only appreciated because of their dicks, boobs, rectum, and vag. (And sometimes a pretty face... but usually not.)
To add to the degradation, the female characters are usually portrayed as submissive to the male characters, which automatically places them in a lower rank and power. The degree of submissiveness varies from film to film. In softcore, the women are submissive, but not to the point were it is remarkably noticeable. In some hardcore flicks, the female characters are willingly abused, appear as little more than slaves, and are treated as if they were less-than-human. (There are also genres of pornography, such as FemDom, were the roles are reversed.)
I hope this made my stance more clear!
I'll concede that there is some pornography that is artistically oriented and, while it is still mainly concerned with sex, the aesthetic value of the film can also be appreciated. Unfortunately, the vast majority of pornography is not like this at all.
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wisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
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yes, sadly it does.
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