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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #842798 - 08/25/02 08:14 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

P.S.: Anarchy isn't what most people think it is anyways.

Anarchy is anarchy. Pretty simple -- anarchy is the absence of government. No military, no cops, no courts, no regulatory or licensing agencies, no department of roads and public works, no taxes, no restrictions or subsidies for imports or exports, no single minted currency, no compulsory education, no prisons, no hard and fast laws -- just the unenforceable cultural customs of the community. Everyone does whatever they feel like, and if some individual or group gets out of line (starts robbing, raping, murdering, etc.) they are dealt with by posses of average folks which form just long enough to take care of the problem, then disband. If not enough people feel like forming a posse, the miscreant is free to continue doing his thing.

The above of course describes ANARCHY, and NOT the "anarcho-syndicalism" in vogue today in so many places. Anarcho-syndicalism is nothing more than slightly modified Marxism, but its adherents for some reason don't care to admit this, hence their attempt to present it as anarchy.

I am certainly not implying that Murex is either an anarchist OR an anarcho-syndicalist; I am merely providing the definition of anarchy. However, from the tenor of some of his ten points, I would think it safe to assume he has at least listened to some revolutionary types at some point in his life. Perhaps some of them referred to themselves as anarchists.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #842809 - 08/25/02 08:17 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Those 10 reasons may be ones that you agree with, however they aren't yours

Top 10 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Vote






--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/25/02 08:18 PM)


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #842887 - 08/25/02 08:43 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

Anarchy is ultimate freedom
(kinda like the animals and bugs and stuff)

Anarchy will not see the light of day for a while because it is peaceful coexistance with everyone and everything, NOT a orgy of rioting (but that's what people would do if tommorow there was no government). We (hopefully) can evolve ourselves as humans to that point. Too bad there are too many greedy and/or stupid people out there right now.

This is my form of Anarchy-
http://www.radio4all.org/anarchy/zen.html





--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (08/25/02 08:44 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #843490 - 08/26/02 06:53 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

****Anarchy is ultimate freedom ****

or ultimate chaos...depends what side you're on i guess...a utopia that is just that

***kinda like the animals and bugs and stuff***

since we are neither, i don't see the comparison

***Anarchy will not see the light of day for a while because it is peaceful coexistance with everyone and everything****

Anarchy is only effective if every person in the country decides to be peacefull and thoughtful towards others...you'd either have to be naive or a dimwit (noone in particular) to think this is possible.

****NOT a orgy of rioting (but that's what people would do if tommorow there was no government).****

you just answered your own question..it's human nature to oppose, and oppose humans would. Anarchy cannot work and thank GOD it never will

****We (hopefully) can evolve ourselves as humans to that point. *****

in a perfect world maybe, however i find that there is no perfect anything. (name me one country that has had anarchy that is effective)

****Too bad there are too many greedy and/or stupid people out there right now. ****

Greed or stupidity has nothing to do with it, it's human nature. To be honest with you i think that it's the smart and greedless ones out there that are against anarchy. The word is control, anarchy is lack there of, or to a lesser extent MOB rule..


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Patriotism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #843998 - 08/26/02 11:38 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

In reply to:

however i find that there is no perfect anything.



I can be perfectly irritating.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: Patriotism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #844041 - 08/26/02 11:57 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

What kind of government was there before we came here? What did the natives have?




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #844058 - 08/26/02 12:04 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I don't know why you asked me, but from what I've read either the Cheif or a council of elders made the rules.

If you meant to ask someone else try clicking on the reply button in their posts so we can all follow along.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinevatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 7,653
Last seen: 17 years, 2 days
Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Murex]
    #844076 - 08/26/02 12:17 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)



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InvisibleThorA
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
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Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 9,982
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Re: Patriotism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #844078 - 08/26/02 12:18 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Excellent thread

Read my signature, it sadly describes too many 'freedom loving' people.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Thor]
    #844109 - 08/26/02 12:33 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Don't everybody's parents and elders make the rules for them?

I'm talking as a whole, not as little tribes.




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (08/26/02 12:34 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Patriotism [Re: vatoloco]
    #844635 - 08/26/02 04:14 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

as a side note the Frence were the first to scalp people....not that this has anything to do with the topic mind you...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #844645 - 08/26/02 04:17 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

***Don't everybody's parents and elders make the rules for them? ***

yeah, it's called a dictatorship

****I'm talking as a whole, not as little tribes.****

the indians traveled and lived in tribes. They can be viewed as different countries to make it easier. They have their own elders that made law ie: quasi-democracy.

sorry to say it but the "WE WANT ANARCHY" ploy went out with the sex pistols


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #844716 - 08/26/02 04:44 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

It might sound really nice to think that we could have a society with no laws and everyone would live happily ever after, but it won't work.

You can take away any sort of police, and that just means the first group to get enough weapons and get organized takes over. The "law and order institution" would be replaced in a matter of hours.

It's simply impossible to have a massive functioning society without some form of organization and control. I don't care what the Sex Pistols say, anarchy won't work.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleshroomophile
ShroomitusFidelis
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Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
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Re: Patriotism [Re: vatoloco]
    #845605 - 08/27/02 02:44 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

in response to:
A true patriot is an informed and capable thinker. They realize what
they have, what they need to contribute, and what they need to sacrifice in
order to maintain their country.

eligible american voters who don't participate in the election
process deserve to be stripped of their rights and shipped off
to china to do forced labor.

You are not either,because a true patriot knows that the freedoms espoused in the constitution apply to all people;even the chinese.Before you attack me ,realize I vote and i dislike those who dont.Tolerance is one of the cornerstones of democracy.

This little site has alot of links concerning alot of the posts in this thread.
Mind Your Own Biz.



--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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OfflineShroomSkin
Liberty or Death

Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 1,213
Loc: Don't Tread on Me
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Patriotism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #850663 - 08/29/02 09:10 AM (19 years, 25 days ago)

Thought this might be appropiate, considering the original topic.

None Dare Call It Reason
by John Murdoch

Like the National Anthem, America&#8217;s supposed upsurge of patriotic pride now leaves us at the end of the first stanza. Who knows the second?

Recently, the local newspaper for my town ran a recap of 2001, which was predictably dominated by the events of September 11th. It was very interesting to read the articles relating to the local perspectives of living in the area. Interesting, and insightful. As usual, I found it hard to believe that I was living in the same nation as I had this time last year, but something deeper was troubling my conscience.

Prior to September 11th, my generation of late teens and twentysomethings was known as one that had little to do with patriotism and American identity. A statistic used to kick around in my head, something to the tune of less than one in ten American houses sported the flag on a regular basis. Then, one morning the World Trade Center ceased to be a highlight of the New York City skyline and instead became the fallen symbol of Islamic resentment against the West. In the shock to follow, we became immersed in a flood of fervent nationalism. Patriotism turned into pop culture overnight; and Hawking became one with Hollywood.

I fear, however, that this flood is receding already, and what sentiment is left behind will be considered nothing but right-wing debris by way of the Gulf War, as if the surreal nationalism of the American people was nothing but a conscious-free Vegas wedding. Who among the watchful cannot say that this WalMart grade patriotism is fading fast, and the corrupt from both right and left are getting back on track?

The most visual example, in my town, at least, is a non-visual. The flags that once seemed to be flying from every other house in the neighborhood are slowly being taken down, packed away or moved to the basement bar or romper room... under the excuse of winter, no doubt. But I have a strange feeling these flags will be seen as often as a distant relative; once a year, on a certain paid vacation in July.

You'd have to be blind not to see the merging force of pop culture and firefighters going on right now. It makes sense that this would dwindle on; since everyone loves firemen anyway, and rightly so. But where's the rallying call of the media with our national blood supply sinking to dangerously low levels? Where is the interest in volunteers signing up for training as not only volunteer firemen, but reserve police, medical and community assistance in case of emergencies of all kinds?

Our soldiers are certainly getting the front page, with every office flunky and barroom zero rattling on how they wish they could be on the front lines to squeeze off a few rounds at the shrouded enemy. Yet our underpaid and overworked Armed Forces members and National Guardsmen stand on duty at our local bases and airports, protecting not an abstraction or an ideal, but their friends, family and neighbors. Who will stand up to insist they receive our support via increased spending for compensation packages, not only now, but when they take time out of their own lives to fight natural disasters and civil disturbance, or simply to retrain for the next challenge? Who fights for those disabled veterans who have been neglected? Who stands to challenge the nations who have not apologized for the torture of our POWs in past wars? And who outside the members of the VFW will attend any form of ceremony on Veterans or Memorial Day, to honor those that fought for this country before the primetime news of today?

We are barraged with stories of Taliban repression in Afghanistan, of how restrictive the ethos of our newfound enemy is. Yet, we are told by social do-gooders that the essential freedoms that our nation cannot exist without are privileges, not rights. We are told by lawmakers and lobbyists that the Constitution, born out of the most proportionately costly war this nation has ever seen, created by men who became venerated by free-thinkers all over the world, and defended through the lives of millions, is in essence an ever-changing document to be re-written by the status quo, contested only by formality. Most frightening of all, we are told that our greatest freedom is the freedom from discomfort and fear.

There's a supposed newfound respect for our policemen across the country. But the one-sided criticism concerning "unethical" police conduct has already returned to the forefront. Former NYC Mayor Rudolph Guiliani, the icon of September 11th resilience, whose aggressive law enforcement policy made street crime a non-issue in the recent mayoral election, has already found the complaints of police brutality resurfaced as the largest critique of his completed career. And who expressed outrage, who said anything, when the supporters of convicted cop-killer Mumia rejoiced when the death penalty was repealed on his case less than a month ago? Who outside Philadelphia or the Fraternal Order of Police even knows who Officer Dan Faulkner was, or cares that the likes of David Denkins and Alec Baldwin deify someone who took the life of a civil servant?

I could go on with more examples, but I won't, lest I be seen as overly-negative. And even a realist/pessimist like me has to admit there was magic in the air that long week in September, something that made all of us wonder if our kind still had some fight left in us.

So with that in mind, I must not condemn us without hope of a wiser, stronger nation for the future. And I must respect the right of all my fellow citizens to disagree with my opinions, even those that are radically opposed to the ideals that are being contested through exterior violence and interior apathy. But I do not, and will not, respect those that ride the wave of store-bought red, white and blue, only to pack it away in favor of the banner of their football team next fall.

The test is here for patriotism and community. How will you or I rank? How did you or I rank on September 10th? How will you and I rank a year from now? I know one man who will pass with flying colors.

My neighbor, a veteran from the Second World War, has been quietly living in my neighborhood for decades. His war has come and gone, and I enjoy the freedom he protected without much of a bill, so to speak. The American flag has been flying for a long time on my block thanks to him, long after it quit being popular to do so, and certainly long before it became popular to do so again. My guess is that it will be there long after most people in town have taken theirs down. You can't see his flag too well from the main road, but it's there, day in and day out.

How about yours?



--------------------
---
Stay gold.


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