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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Patriotism
    #836476 - 08/22/02 05:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Ever since the terrorist attacks of September 11th, there have
been many displays of patriotism. Some genuine and meaningful, and
some not.

I have noticed many people who talk of September 11th, but do not
elicit genuine outrage. As a society, we are too jaded and self-
centered.

But, half-hearted patriotism is worse than no patriotism. Buying a flag
to put on your car or wearing a red, white, and blue shirt accomplishes
nothing. I am always disgusted when people associate being something or
believing in something by advertising that they are that certain something.
It's almost as if a person's beliefs are measured by how you present
yourself, and not what is in your head. It is appearance over substance.
These pathetic dilettantes of patriotic fervor sicken me.

The worst thing one can do is take an idea of supreme importance, and
use it to hawk a product. There have been tons of commercials
advertising things for people to buy, that have images of the flag
and people saying stuff like, "America is still strong" and "It's
the American thing to do". The gall that it takes to use patriotism,
that was brought about by a tragic event where thousands of people
were killed, as a way to sell something, is beyond my grasp. It is
distasteful and crass.

Here is my opinion on my country(America). I guess you could call it my idea of
patriotism. This world is not perfect. People are not perfect.
Therefore, it is impossible to make a perfect society. But, I believe
that a liberal democracy that has a controlled capitalism for it's
economy is the most tolerable of all of the possible scenarios. I live
in a country where I can go where I want, say what I want, and
participate in the political process to change what I believe
needs to be changed. I am proud that I have these freedoms at my
disposal. I thank all of the people who dedicated their minds
to the creation of this country, and I thank all those who have sacrificed
their lives in order to ensure the continued existence of this country.

Flag-waving is for idiots. Saying cliche patriotic slogans is for idiots.
A true patriot is an informed and capable thinker. They realize what
they have, what they need to contribute, and what they need to sacrifice in
order to maintain their country.

Although, I will readily admit that I take these rights for granted.
I have never voted. I don't follow government happenings. I have
come to the conclusion that when something is handed to a person
without that person having to expend any effort to get it or to
protect it, the something in question will never be fully appreciated
and respected.

I have never been faced with anything that threatened my existence.
I have never been truly frightened. I have never accomplished or contributed
to anything of great value. I would give anything to be faced with a
monumental challenge. How exhilarating it would be to be faced with a
life and death struggle and maybe to give my life for a just cause.

I think it is unnatural for human beings to live without adversity.
It is healthy for us to be challenged. Everything has already been laid
out for us. Today's society has no great challenge. We have no great cause.
There is nothing of great importance that is left to accomplish. All we have
to do in modern day society is dream up new ways to entertain ourselves and
increase our comfort.

When people are given the freedom to be selfish, they will act
selfishly. When a people have nothing that binds them together,
they begin to focus on themselves. When this happens, society
becomes shallow, stagnates and then decays. Even if a great cause
were to come along, we as a society are so self-absorbed that we
would provide a tepid response.

Any structure that man makes, whether it is a building, a society, or a
system of beliefs, always disintegrates. When something is new, people
devote themselves to it with ardor. When people become used to
something, they devote less attention to it. When something is
not getting the proper attention that is required to maintain it,
it falls apart. It is inevitable.

If only the human race was capable of living up to it's noble ideals.


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Invisibletoxick
The GoodReverend, Dr.

Registered: 12/11/00
Posts: 128
Loc: O NE
Re: Patriotism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #837033 - 08/22/02 10:30 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yes! Thanks for posting that.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Patriotism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #837059 - 08/22/02 10:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with most of what you wrote. The ignorance and irony of Americans will never stop to think. Americans as a whole are stupid undeserving of freedom. Even the Americans that bother to vote are almost all ignorant.

I remember when I learned that voters and most people were stupid and believed all they were told without thought. It was in tenth grade. A new state regulation was made by the state for students nutrition that forbade giving two sides of potatoes for the same lunch. Kids could no longer get mashed potatoes AND french fries. If they wanted both they'de have to buy them seperatly. Student elections were coming up. One guy named Gary Beckley ran on the campaign that he would get that rule changed to allow kids to get two servings of potatoes for lunch. He ran his campaign for a month and won and after the election. After the results were announced over the PA a few people mentioned it will be great to get mashed potatoes and french fries again. I spoke up and said that can't happen, it's a state law. They looked shocked when I said that. They were just so stupid. And so gullible.

That's how American's are. Theyre fat and lazy. They only care about beer and baseball games. They want to feel good and be popular. They are lemmings on race to jump off the cliff. They deserve the fall when they get there too.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Patriotism [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #837347 - 08/23/02 05:28 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

the masses are incurably ignorant....unfortunatly a lot mass on this web site...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinevatoloco
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Registered: 01/30/02
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Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #837448 - 08/23/02 06:48 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Patriotism [Re: vatoloco]
    #837534 - 08/23/02 07:44 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I have never voted. I don't follow government happenings. I have
come to the conclusion that when something is handed to a person
without that person having to expend any effort to get it or to
protect it, the something in question will never be fully appreciated
and respected.


so you're one of the stupid lemmings then, eh?

there is so much defeatism and lack of passion in your post
I am physically sickened. while you may be one of the more
*enlightened* americans, the fact that you recognize your
shortcomings, yet still succumb to the path of laziness and
apathy is deplorable.


While your post is harsh, I agree with it somewhat. I have already told you why I am possessed with apathy and laziness: I have never had to fight. I have never had my existence threatened. I have never had to fight for my freedoms. They have been handed to me. And as I said, when something is handed to you, it will never be appreciated.

I am not completely defeated by apathy. I said in my post that I yearn for a true challenge. Where I have to fight and struggle for what I have. I don't want to spend my life working and buying things. I have yet to find a great challenge.



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InvisibleSoFarNorth
Hindu BuddistInitiate
Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Far away from here
Re: Patriotism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #837777 - 08/23/02 09:36 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

vatoloco -
I think you were unnecessarily harsh in your response to RF, especially this part:

eligible american voters who don't participate in the election
process deserve to be stripped of their rights and shipped off
to china to do forced labor.


I, too, used to buy into the 'my vote counts' school of thought, but given that I do logical analysis for a living, I can no longer delude myself into thinking this. It is so obvious that money controls who gets into powerful positions and who does not, that it doesn't really require a lot more debate. I wish it weren't so, especially given that I spent 10 years of my life in the Navy defending a great ideal, the one outlined in the Constitution, and still believe in that ideal. Unhappily, those who seek power rarely, if ever, share that ideal; they are whores in the very worst sense of the word - they don't just sell there bodies, but there very souls to the Corporate interests and to those of the PACs - I've seen too many correlation reports tracking special interest money vs. voting records to believe anything else.

As for solutions, I don't see any that would advance, given the current paradigm in US gov't, but if given God-like powers for a day, I would banish the idea that Corporations be allowed any influence in govermental policy. Current case law gives them damn near the entire gamut of rights of a citizen, excepting the right to vote, with few of the restrictions (why aren't there corporate death penalty laws for corp's that knowingly allow practices to continue that cause injury or death to others?). Not to mention that corp's can spend vastly larger amounts of money to influence/buy the politicians than can real citizens.

But I still vote - more out of habit than conviction..and certainly no longer criticize those that have decided to opt out of this meaningless exercise. As I once read somewhere - 'Elections never really change the gov't, if they did, they wouldn't be allowed"


--------------------
"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


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Offlinevatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
Posts: 7,653
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #838051 - 08/23/02 11:53 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Patriotism [Re: vatoloco]
    #838440 - 08/23/02 03:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

"Patriotism makes me sick! It's a round world last time I checked." - Bill Hicks

I think that sums up my opinion on this subject. As for voting, I don't vote iether.

You want to know why I choose not to vote? I choose not to because no matter who the president is, they won't do anything sugniffigant that helps this contry. They really have less control over this contry than most people think. They will be corrupt, and they will be liars. They never have nothing to offer- that is why I can never choose who to vote for if I had to choose. Anything they say to promote themselves before elections are not nessicarly what they are gonna do. Rich companies give them buttloads of money to do something for them when they are elected- this is used to fuel the campaign THIS IS A BRIBE for the companies to get what they want in exchange for money. Any president-to-be who gets campaign money this way is a greedy scumbag.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Patriotism [Re: vatoloco]
    #838770 - 08/23/02 06:37 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

vatoloco writes:

harsh or not, I have little respect for those
who do not vote, yet insist on criticizing the
government. it's hypocritical and idiotic.


Depends on what method of not voting you follow. It is immoral to vote for a candidate whose platform you don't support.

If I were an American, for example, I could never have voted for Buchanan or Gore or Bush or Nader. If there was a Libertarian candidate on the ballot, I would have voted for him. If there wasn't, I would have written "None of the above" on the ballot and turned it in. Yes, I know it would not have counted, it would have been classed as a "spoiled ballot", but I would have done my civic duty by voting. If everyone who disagrees with the Demopublicans were to have done the same thing last election, the results would have been interesting.

"Final tally: Bush 34%, Gore 34%, Nader 3%, Buchanan 1%, Spoiled Ballots 28%. Hmmm.... a record number of spoiled ballots, Bruce. It would seem the voters don't think much of the presidential candidates this year. What are your thoughts on this bizarre phenomenon?"

"Well, Skip, my take on it is not that the public is showing dissatisfaction with the candidates of these fine parties, but that the ballots are simply too complex for the average voter to understand. I believe this is a clear call for redesigned ballots."

"Uhhh... okay, if you say so, Bruce. We pause now for station identification."

I've been following American presidential elections since the early Sixties, and I can't remember one where the two candidates were so lame. Bush and Gore? Holy crap. How could anyone with an ounce of self-respect have voted for either of those two sacks of meat?

It would have been better to go down to Times Square blindfolded with a dart in each hand, spin around a few times and let them fly, then grab whichever two pissbums the darts hit, dress them up in thousand dollar suits, give them each a shave and a blowdry haircut and run them for president.

I agree electoral reform is necessary, but they're wasting energy on all the wrong details. All that is really needed is a "none of the above" option. Politicians have been bemoaning for decades now the decreasing voter turnout, and blaming it on "apathy". BZZZTT! Wrong answer! It's not apathy at all, it's conscience. I'm willing to bet every dollar I have and all my future earnings as well that if they include the option "none of the above" on the next presidential ballot, there will be an increase in voter turnout of at least fifteen per cent, and I'll even give odds on that.

pinky



--------------------


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,045
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Phred]
    #838811 - 08/23/02 06:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I have many times left blank the choice for various offices rather than to vote for a candidate I disagree with. It has also entered my mind before to not vote and thereby conciously withdraw my consent from the government and the democratic process but decided against it because I thought it would be viewed as apathy rather than discontent.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (08/23/02 07:01 PM)


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Offlinevatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Phred]
    #840636 - 08/24/02 03:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: Patriotism [Re: vatoloco]
    #841087 - 08/24/02 07:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

That would be greedy of me. I'd rather vote for something that most people need and I don't. Oh yeah, and senators suck satan's cock too.


TOP TEN REASONS WHY I DO NOT VOTE

1. Reform is the biggest enemy of revolution and the electoral system is the essence of reformism. Voting gives the impression of participation and change, yet it is the backbone of a society based upon alienation and boredom. Voting lures us away from the real task of demolishing the existing institutions. In the short term we get token, pacifying reform, and in the long run we get the same ding-dong electoral repetition.

2. To vote is to accept the limits of your own power. It makes you as powerful (or powerless) as the cross on the ballot-paper. American democracy is the amassed power of several million opinions reduced to a whimpering and stifled cheer for the same masters we've had all of our lives.

3. There is nobody who can run your life better than yourself. You don't need other people to vote for you to prove it. So why then should you give others the power to decide how you should run your life?

4. There are those who would vote, yet still be active in the struggle for real change. They are like vegetarians working in slaughterhouses.

5. Voting is the excuse we need to avoid organizing ourselves, to avoid creating our own alternative. Voting is accepting that the power of the state is preferable to the power of the individual and the power of the community.

6. The weight and force of the blow of a policeman's truncheon does not change when the truncheon is painted a different color. All democratic institutions are 'law and order' institutions.

7. Voting is a clever way of getting you to sign your name to a whole series of measures, when in fact you were only aware of three or four of them. Thus, your vote is your personal approval of every single policy carried out by the party you vote for, without exception. By the time the elected party has spent a year in the office, you won't even recognize the measures you voted for- but you will be subject to the laws and restrictions imposed through each and every decision made by that government.

8. Voting for the lesser of two (or more) evils perpetuates the biggest evil of all: the evil of stasis, a world where all change is superficial. Invariably this means that we eagerly vote in order to grasp the available entertainment of politicians walking tightropes between popularity and personal wealth and comfort.

9. Voting Democrat legitimizes not only the system of government we have now, it also legitimizes the pendulum-style inevitability of the electoral process... and thus gives the Republicans credibility as simply the other side of the bad penny. (No matter how many times you flip the coin, it will never land on it's edge. The Democrat / Republican Alliance exists in the no-hope land between left and right, and voting for it only strengthens the swinging regularity of the elections). Voting for the Conservative Republicans in the hope that 'If they get in, the people will rise' is a mistake. Electorally-gained power is also a mandate to allow them to increase the effectiveness of their resistance-crushing machinery. Voting Libertarian gives them the mistaken idea that their ideas can travel through Congress and come out at the other end actually meaning something. Surely it's far better to encourage real change - which can only happen outside of government.

10. Voting is slapping a preservation order on corruption, inequality, and mass-manufactured boredom. In short, voting is the blinding of the people, by the people.
Refusing to vote is a personal decision to have nothing to do with the dated, oppressive, and crippling system. Not voting is positive, not negative. Voting is an end; refusing to vote is a beginning...




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (08/24/02 07:31 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #841119 - 08/24/02 07:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Good post Murex.


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #841724 - 08/25/02 07:02 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Are you an anarchist?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Patriotism [Re: Phluck]
    #841773 - 08/25/02 08:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why does he have to be labelled? He's a human being with his own opinion. Does that make him an anarchist?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Patriotism [Re: Xlea321]
    #841966 - 08/25/02 10:40 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It seems you want to fit me into a catergory so that you can insult me. BAH!

P.S.: Anarchy isn't what most people think it is anyways.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflinejUrkel
No title?!?
Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 10
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada,...
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Patriotism [Re: Phred]
    #842575 - 08/25/02 06:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

On canoe.ca, the people that did the poll on decriminilizing marijuana voted something like 70 percent in favour...
Anyways, what's this I hear about political hearings in september on the issue?


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Patriotism [Re: jUrkel]
    #842771 - 08/25/02 08:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I still wouldn't vote. I don't really care for weed. Besides, I can get it pretty easy anyway. Call me lazy.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #842792 - 08/25/02 08:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

****P.S.: Anarchy isn't what most people think it is anyways****

It's usually the anarchist who don't really know what anarchy is...care to explain?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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