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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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A little neuroscience
    #836261 - 08/22/02 04:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think there must be a neural pathway that weighs out the significance of a particular experience... and I think this pathway can be REALLY altered by 5-HT agonists. Oftentimes I've found myself feeling like I'm experiencing some "greater truth" and in actuality, nothing is happening. Even if there are no strong visuals or body load, this feeling can still be there... nagging me.

I'll be sitting in Denny's and all of a sudden, it will hit me... "This spoon! This spoon is what it's all about, man!!" The more I've tripped, the more I realize that the spoon is just a spoon and that "face" I've been seeing in the spoon is just waterspots. Since I've been in many different settings on varying dosages of varying 5-HT agonists; and I didn't have this feeling everytime (as I don't always get powerful visuals everytime), I have concluded that my neural architecture is responsible for such delusions of grandeur.

Each particular time, the threshold of these neural pathways just happened to be reached and an action potential was created. Since no trip is easily duplicated (for me at least), it MUST be due to the random manner in which the 5-HT agonist disperses itself in my brain. Since it takes so many molecules to trigger so many receptors, it is only a natural consequence that as concentrations of 5-HT agonists increase, more and more receptors are triggered which leads to a greater likelihood of having a certain pathway triggered. So, high doses tend to mean more visuals, more divine feelings, and so forth.

If 'wet nanotechnology' progresses quickly in the next few years, I'd like to devise a project to tag 5-HT agonists so that they could be manipulated (via magnetic fields?) and monitored. Maybe I could use something like magnetic resonance to monitor these tagged molecules as the worked. What is my goal? Well, to map an individual's brain (note I said 'individual'). If such a thing could be done... there would be some amazing possibilities to follow (I'll withold those for now).


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836289 - 08/22/02 04:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Stop trying to take the 'magic' out of Magic Mushrooms! It is NOt a spoon, but an alien tuning device...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836313 - 08/22/02 04:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting...


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 28 days
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836397 - 08/22/02 05:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think there must be a neural pathway that weighs out the significance of a particular experience... all of a sudden, it will hit me... "This spoon! This spoon is what it's all about, man!!" The more I've tripped, the more I realize that the spoon is just a spoon

But if you are right, do you believe it will help to tell you the true significance of the spoon? Actually, the spoon is a bad example...

If existence can become imbued with meaning and significance under the influence of a psychedelic drug, will knowing more about the chemical basis for the perception tell you with certainty if the experience is real or unreal?


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Offlineshroom666
Dude

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 140
Last seen: 19 years, 26 days
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: mirror_saw]
    #836411 - 08/22/02 05:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It aint no spoon, its a fork. It aint no fork, its a bananna, Bananna?
I meant appricot.


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"They all float down here....they all float!!"
"Life is not an act, midgets are real fun"
"What you feel, it might not be"


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: mirror_saw]
    #836431 - 08/22/02 05:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If existence can become imbued with meaning and significance under the influence of a psychedelic drug, will knowing more about the chemical basis for the perception tell you with certainty if the experience is real or unreal?

No... in this case, reality is entirely subjective. But knowing the neurophysiology behind those experiences would help us to map the brain.
I think real and unreal are perceptions of coherence, so they can only be indirectly (read: less randomly) affected by psychedelics. What I'd like to do is figure out a precise way of triggering specific neural pathways via chemicals.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836629 - 08/22/02 06:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)


I always found it interesting that plants and fungi that lack nervous systems can create chemicals that so closely match neurotransmitters. It might be a randomly evolved defense mechanism but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it is a form of communication.
The last time I smoked Salvia, a thought stuck in my mind - "if plants could talk, this is what they would say". It was like a primal form of communication between two living things - no language necessary.

From mushrooms to trees to cacti, so many completely unrelated plants and fungi producing chemicals similar to neurotransmitters can't be a coincidence.



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Anonymous

Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836652 - 08/22/02 06:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Good stuff, Sclorch. Keep it up.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: mirror_saw]
    #836669 - 08/22/02 07:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"This spoon! This spoon is what it's all about, man!!"

Cheech, is that you? No, wait - it's Uri Geller! He must have had a spoon-epiphany as he made his fortune using his mental powers (read fingers) bending them.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #836779 - 08/22/02 07:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



Uri Geller, what a fakir!

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: A little neuroscience [Re: ]
    #836838 - 08/22/02 08:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Infidelgod- we've already had this discussion on Shroomunication (mine).

Uri Geller, yeah, what a fakir! (a=uc; i=e)


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836851 - 08/22/02 08:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Although this technology could be used for evil purposes, I think there would be some extremely healthy applications.
1. Breaking cycles (addiction, depression, etc.).
2. Restoring memory by patching circuits (amnesia, head trauma, etc.).
3. It might be applied to some mental disorders (this is most questionable though).
Getting dangerous now...
4. Virtual reality devices (ever seen Existenz or 13th Floor or The Matrix?).
5. Metaprogramming.
6. Mind exploration.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836880 - 08/22/02 08:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Your most meaningful experience is looking at a spoon? That's worse than swami's!

Maybe you should forget all about "5HT agonists" and work on developing your character. As K Trout said "It is always the student who must do the work". Make yourself worthy of the sacrament and you might have a more rewarding experience. .


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: infidelGOD]
    #836890 - 08/22/02 08:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well said. And remember no-one has the faintest idea why these compounds have the effect they do. As Schultes and Huston smith pointed out, saying things like they affect "5HT" agonists is completly worthless and no explanation for anything.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Xlea321]
    #836908 - 08/22/02 08:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

God Alex123, you sure are a ?o?ksucker!

I never said anything of the sort. That actually never happened to ME. It was a quasi-anecdote... a little story used to express an idea. Apparently you're still hung up with your own ego.

I've had plenty of rewarding experiences. This isn't one of them.


--------------------
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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #836914 - 08/22/02 08:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

God Alex123, you sure are a ?o?ksucker!


Please desist from petty childish insults.

Thanks.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Xlea321]
    #836920 - 08/22/02 08:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As Schultes and Huston smith pointed out, saying things like they affect "5HT" agonists is completly worthless and no explanation for anything.

Are they world-renowned neuroscientists? Didn't think so.

I especially like your post here, because it proves you don't know squat about neurophysiology...
"they affect "5HT" agonists"
This means what exactly? It's gibberish. Psychedelics ARE 5-HT agonists... they don't AFFECT anything other than 5-HT receptors (serotonin receptors) when they bind to them.

Visit Heffter.org and read up on neurophysiology before you start swinging to defend your precious ego. Wake up, man, this post had nothing to do with you.


--------------------
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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #837110 - 08/22/02 11:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

they don't AFFECT anything other than 5-HT receptors (serotonin receptors) when they bind to them.

not necessarily, scientists are a long way from understanding how psychedelics work. We can't be certain that receptor agonism causes all of the subjective effects. There may be other mechanisms of action that we don't know about.

Psychedelics ARE 5-HT agonists

I guess this means serotonin is a psychedelic.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #837151 - 08/23/02 12:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree that physiologically this is how the drug compound is interacting with your brain and it's chemistry, however that doesn't mean you can't derive truth for yourself, or spiritulaity or....whatever out of it.

Basically I think drugs tap what every human brain is capable of doing on it's own. The drug helps us step outside ourselves to see things differently. Not that the drug is some magical gift from the goddess of the earth but rather, our brains haven't learned these capabilities.


Just my opinion!!


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Xlea321]
    #837198 - 08/23/02 01:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

saying things like they affect "5HT" agonists is completly worthless

How can attempting to understand the neurochemistry behind the psychedelic experience be completely worthless? Knowledge has no value?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: infidelGOD]
    #837201 - 08/23/02 01:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Psychedelics ARE 5-HT agonists

I guess this means serotonin is a psychedelic


Someone failed basic logic.

Collies are dogs.

Poodles are dogs (sort of ).

Therefore poodles are collies? Doesn't work that way.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #837205 - 08/23/02 01:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Whether it's bad logic or not depends on what Sclorch meant by "Psychedelics ARE 5-HT agonists".

I thought he was equating the two terms as opposed to defining one as a catagory of the other (such as Collies are dogs).
Basic logic is never basic when symantics get in the way.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #837441 - 08/23/02 06:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

How can attempting to understand the neurochemistry behind the psychedelic experience be completely worthless? Knowledge has no value?

Please try and respond to what I am saying rather than your own imagination.

Understanding the physical process is another thing entirely from addressing why it exists. Your logic (as usual) is ass backwards. It is akin to saying "The red blood cells appear to be damaged" when studying an infected woud and leaving your explanation at that. There is clearly a far bigger story behind infection than the immediate effect on the bodys cells, as there is with psychedelic effects. This is what we need to address.

And as someone mentioned earlier, our "understanding" of the physical effects of psychedelics is third-grade at best.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Xlea321]
    #837486 - 08/23/02 07:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Please try and respond to what I am saying rather than your own imagination.
Sorry that I actually responded to your words instead of your as-yet-to-be-written account of blood platelets. My prescient skills are not that finely honed yet. I should 'know' that a psychedelic experience is like a blood infection is like a Hendrix solo...

Your logic (as usual) is ass backwards.
The love that you exhibit is these boards is in direct opposition to the values that you espouse.





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Anonymous

Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #837511 - 08/23/02 07:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My prescient skills are not that finely honed yet.

Bro, you're really letting me down.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: ]
    #837521 - 08/23/02 07:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

*Hangs head* Guess I will have to delete the "Seer" part of my self-description...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #837678 - 08/23/02 08:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I should 'know' that a psychedelic experience is like a blood infection is like a Hendrix solo...

Well, I'm glad to see you dropped your ludicrous 5HT "explanation" at least


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OfflineJust a Punk
Shithawk

Registered: 12/26/00
Posts: 1,145
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #837689 - 08/23/02 09:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Once when I was on mushrooms I went in Denny's.

For some reason I had an overwhelming feeling of sickness.

When I left Denny's I felt better.


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-------------------------------------------------
:B


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #837698 - 08/23/02 09:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

will have to delete the "Seer" part of my self-description...

That would make sense.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Xlea321]
    #837840 - 08/23/02 10:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Seriously Alex, I know a good surgeon... I'm pretty sure he could help you. He has said that he's never had any complications in any of his surgeries involving removal of foreign objects from the lower GI tract. Let me know if you're interested, I'll PM you his number. BTW, his secretary is hot.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #838106 - 08/23/02 12:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Save it for your therapist.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #838149 - 08/23/02 12:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'll PM you his number

hey, it would make a change from you sending me your childish insults by PM. Knock yourself out.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #838512 - 08/23/02 04:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

OK. back to neuroscience - the reason we don't understand the pharmacology of classical hallucinagens is that we don't know what serotonin does. If these 5HT agonists mimick serotonin, its function must be related to them.

We may never know how they work because it's not just about pharmacology, the question is how does a molecule create experience? How does matter (our brains) create thought?
We may eventually find out EXACTLY how neurotransmitters and their chemical analogues physically behave in the brain but that won't tell us how the matter/thought barrier is breached. Thought and consciousness is a mystery to science and will remain that way in the current scientific paradigm.

About classical hallucinagens resembling serotonin;
Remember that "5HT agonism" actually only describes the shape of a molecule. Though that may be important to its function, a molecule has other properties that may contribute to its effects.


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Anonymous

Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Swami]
    #838726 - 08/23/02 06:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Guess I will have to delete the "Seer" part of my self-description...

Nah, just change it to "sear".

ahem, like the man said, "Back to numerology" or was that "neuroscience"?

Sorry for the comic interlude.

Please continue.

Cheers,


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InvisibleGRTUD
INFP
Male

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 270
Loc: United States
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #838899 - 08/23/02 07:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Damn, all those years worshiping spoons, wasted.....well I'm glad the government replaced the steel plate in my head with a plastic one so I can take part in your magnet project! (Although the part in my hair will never be the same.)


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"New shit has come to light..."


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #839044 - 08/23/02 08:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think there must be a neural pathway that weighs out the significance of a particular experience... and I think this pathway can be REALLY altered by 5-HT agonists. Oftentimes I've found myself feeling like I'm experiencing some "greater truth" and in actuality, nothing is happening. Even if there are no strong visuals or body load, this feeling can still be there... nagging me.

Sounds like what NLP describes as anchors in the memory map. Such events elicit a strong (negative or positive) experience/reaction will stay anchored in memory. Such anchor points in the map willl fire off again when there are triggers.

Or you're just possessed. ..And higher doses also means the greater possibility of traumatizing your brain.. Hence, those naggings get will get more intense.


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Anonymous

Re: A little neuroscience [Re: Calen]
    #839725 - 08/24/02 05:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting that you brought up NLP. That is rarely mentioned in this forum.

Are you evolving?

Cheers,


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OfflineCalen
journeyman
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 87
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: A little neuroscience [Re: ]
    #840533 - 08/24/02 02:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, I am. Rather, I'm shedding dead skins I don't need any more.

My NLP knowledge is limited at the moment. I did personally meet a certified trainer who's previous professional background was in psychology. I can sum his words up by saing: "Life is a software program with subprograms." My understanding from him is: a person can utilize debugging known as reframing and scripting to correct glitchy beliefs; uses a specific programing language like liinguitics to modify behavioral patterns; develops well-formed outcomes [glitch-free compiled programs] to anchor reframings.






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