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Invisibledaytripper23
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Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat.
    #8335222 - 04/27/08 07:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I find it interesting that almost everybody is completely outraged with the idea of dosing their pets with LSD.

From my understanding, the central problem is the cat does not have knowledge of this dose.

Principally, how much different is this than getting a friend to try acid? Do they at all understand what they are getting into, by your words and descriptions? Its like saying, hey so you like life in 3-D hows about trying 4-d?

Eventually, even the safety of realizing "I will come back to the real world" is lost, because a high dose of acid will question reality itself. So how about 0-D, or non-duality? Are you ready to die?

Does anybody really know if they want to try acid, before they ever try it?:lol:

To me, our sense of safety associated with this responsibility is an illusion, therefore I really see no ethical difference in dosing my friend, than dosing my cat friend.

I do not dose my pets, nor do I introduce my friends to acid. But I feel I must be open to these ideas, because if acid was never recommended, then it would never be experienced by anyone other than Albert Hoffman. I mean, I'm glad I experienced acid...:shrug:

All this aside, it might reassure you all that I don't really see the point of dosing my cats or dogs anyway. To me, they are already tripping.

Edited by daytripper23 (04/27/08 07:20 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335245 - 04/27/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I find it interesting that almost everybody is completely outraged with the idea of dosing their pets with LSD.





I find it interesting that that you just make up a non-fact as the basis for your discussion.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8335269 - 04/27/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Theres a thread in Psychedelic experience right now with a few who fall under this catagory. I also remember some older threads too.

If you consider my generalization offbase, well, sorry, this isn't exactly the point of my thread though anyway.

It is to compare these to ethical situations. Lets just hope a few enraged cat lovers wander in, and then it wont matter eh?

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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8335280 - 04/27/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

but this is the difference:

you: "Hey dude, you wanna try some acid?"
Friend: "Yeah sure"

versus

You: "Hey kitty, wanna try some acid?"
Kitty: "Meow"


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8335294 - 04/27/08 07:31 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

yea this is what Im talking about.

The point I am trying to impress, is that concerning psychedelics its actually more like:

You: "Hey kitty, wanna try some acid?"
Kitty: "Meow"

Vs

you: "Hey dude, you wanna try some acid?"
Friend: "woof!"

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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335308 - 04/27/08 07:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

But a person can at least EXPECT something to rock their world whereas an animal has no idea what hit them.

I see what you're saying though.

It's all just grunts...


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #8335329 - 04/27/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

...All discourse is nonsense;)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335338 - 04/27/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If you consider my generalization offbase, well, sorry, this isn't exactly the point of my thread though anyway.





Ift is not merely a consideration. You start with a bullshit premise and then want us to continue from there? Makes no sense.


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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335341 - 04/27/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:

Does anybody really know if they want to try acid, before they ever try it?:lol:






Yes? I have yet to try acid, and I'm pretty damn certain that I want to try it. Even if the experience is fucked up, I still want to try it. I *know* this because I *know* that I am interested in exploring every corner of my consciousness I can find a way to access. I don't know if my cat is interested in such an endeavor.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8335358 - 04/27/08 07:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Ok You got me Orgone!

Now, perhaps you will indulge in my bullshit or kindly step out.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335366 - 04/27/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Rephrase so I know what point you are trying to get across.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8335369 - 04/27/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well moving from shrooms to acid is practically nothing, but I'm sure this isn't your point.

What about when you first tried hallucinogens? Did you actually know what you were getting into? I dont think that is possible...

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8335410 - 04/27/08 07:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I, as in me, find it interesting that some people might conceivably be characterized, or exhibit signs of, what I might quite arbitrarily call "anger"; when faced with the ethical dilemmas brought to light by somehow consuming one or more blotter with a compound known as lysergic acid diethylamide on it, on a material plane of existence, somewhere here on earth, which is located in the milky way galaxy.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335543 - 04/27/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So you wish to discuss lack of emotional control? :confused:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8335615 - 04/27/08 08:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Nah I was just joking with ya skipper. You can pretty much ignore my generalization.

To sum up my argument:

Ethically, it is not any better to introduce your friends to acid, than it is to dose your pets, because neither your pet friend nor your human friend has an inkling of what he is getting into. (This is from my understanding central to the argument of those who think it is plain wrong to dose ones pets)

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335661 - 04/27/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Would you want to subject your cat to this?



I don't know the dose, but I think that is irrelevant, as you would have little control or knowledge of the 'appropriate' :rolleyes: dose yourself.

I really don't understand how anyone could even entertain the idea of dosing their unsuspecting cat with a substance that hasn't even been fully tested on humans, let alone felines. The cat doesn't know what it's ingesting, the cat won't know what is happening when the drug takes effect, and you won't be able to talk a cat down in the middle of a 'bad trip' (which would probably be the duration).

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that there is any similarity in introducing a human friend to acid and a feline friend to acid. A cat cannot conduct research and prepare itself for the trip, whereas a (responsible) person can enter into the trip with a pretty firm understanding of what they're going to experience. You may argue that every person experiences their first trip in a significantly individual and unique sense, but I think that a general idea of what is to come can be gained by reading a wide variety of trip reports and speaking to knowledgeable and seasoned trippers. Most importantly, you do NOT have the cat's consent when you dose it, you have no way of knowing whether or not the cat enjoys the experience, and you have no feedback to assess whether or not you will dose it again.

Plus... it's a waste of perfectly good acid.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8335690 - 04/27/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I don't know the dose, but I think that is irrelevant, as you would have little control or knowledge of the 'appropriate' :rolleyes: dose yourself.





Yea, the government is the first place we should look for a balanced experiment...

I think it is clear to everyone, whether you support cat dosing or not, that that particular cat has been heavily over-dosed, which is not what Im proposing


Edited by daytripper23 (04/27/08 09:11 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335711 - 04/27/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

person can enter into the trip with a pretty firm understanding of what they're going to experience.




You really think so? I completely disagree.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335721 - 04/27/08 09:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

How do you know this? Have you dosed a cat? Have you researched the effects of dosing your cat on LSD?

I think the important point is not whether or not the cat knows any better than your friend, but what effects the LSD will actually have on the cat itself. This article goes into some detail about the effects:

"Beginning from a baseline of essentially zero in saline-treated animals, limb flicks and abortive grooming increase in frequency in direct relation to the dose of LSD administered (2.5, 10, 25 and 50 microgram/kg i.p.) and then decrease at higher doses (100 and 200 microgram/kg)."

'Limb flicks' decrease at higher doses, meaning that the above example is probably a lower dose, if anything.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335733 - 04/27/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

for one, seemingly, acid effects cats a lot more intensely. we don't even know if the cat is suffering or not under the influence. and two, a human can at least say "give it to me".

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335737 - 04/27/08 09:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The ethics of dosing animals says that its wrong because when you really think about it, would anyone argue that the animal would be better off after the trip? They don't have the perspective to understand what happened.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335750 - 04/27/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Quote:

person can enter into the trip with a pretty firm understanding of what they're going to experience.




You really think so? I completely disagree.




Yes, I do. I read upwards of one hundred trip reports before I dosed myself, and my first trip was very similar to what I was expecting. Not only can a responsible human learn about the 'average' effects that LSD will have, but he can also learn about the specific actions the drug will take in the body itself. Do you think that a completely unsuspecting first-time tripper would differ in experience from someone like myself? (Does expectation effect future experience?)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8335796 - 04/27/08 09:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

As for the "limb flicks" and abortive grooming, I have no idea what these are...

But from your own line of reasoning, How do YOU know they aren't enjoying this, eh? If we can empathize enough with them to determine that a definitively negative reaction, we should be able to determine a proper dose then, right?

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8335845 - 04/27/08 09:33 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I am not talking about a particular trip, but the trip of coming down, and coming back for more, again and again over the years. The pursuit, of whatever it is so many psychonauts pursue. I dont think anybody can at all conceive of this journey before they have tripped.


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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335862 - 04/27/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

As for the "limb flicks" and abortive grooming, I have no idea what these are...




Limb flicks, as in the flicking of the limbs you saw in that video (involuntary jerking).

Quote:

How do YOU know they aren't enjoying this, eh?




That's just the point: we don't know what they feel, and we have no way of obtaining that knowledge. A human can tell you how he feels, a cat cannot. I personally would not subject an unsuspecting animal to something that I do not even understand, the effects of which I cannot even judge responsibly. I think dosing a cat is akin to dissolving a few tabs in your friend's soda and watching as he flails in confusion. In my opinion, one would have to be severely deluded in order to justify something like this.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Compass]
    #8335872 - 04/27/08 09:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Compass said:
The ethics of dosing animals says that its wrong because when you really think about it, would anyone argue that the animal would be better off after the trip? They don't have the perspective to understand what happened.




I agree with this, like I said I really don't see the point of doing it in the first place.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8335876 - 04/27/08 09:40 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well I am saying we CAN empathize with animals.

You seem to be going back in forth, whichever way suits your argument. If you say that we can't empathize, then why dont you delete the video of the cat, along with the study that goes with it, because according to you this information is meaningless.

Edited by daytripper23 (04/27/08 09:44 PM)

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OfflineCompass
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335895 - 04/27/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that depending on their cultural/intellectual/spiritual background, combined with their research, most people can't fully understand what taking the red pill entails.

I made a post about that: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7466252#7466252


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nystagmus dopamine guru inverted pop culture love scars of sorrow fleshy synesthesia hippie farts perpetual tinnitus
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335898 - 04/27/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

when a person consents to dropping a tab, they are not consenting to the experience itself, but the possibility of the experience.
With basic communication barriers we can not acquire even this basic consent from another animal.

Although in saying that, I do find this statement interesting and fair:

"But from your own line of reasoning, How do YOU know they aren't enjoying this, eh? "

I think it is quite easy to assume the worst.
But you just can not know for sure.


How would one go about correctly dosing a cat???:crazy:


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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335900 - 04/27/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm saying that we can't understand how the drug effects the cat psychologically; the physical reactions are fairly evident based on that video and article.

What do you mean by empathizing with cats? How can you feel empathy for a creature which you don't understand? Can you imagine yourself in the cat's 'shoes', and connect with it on an emotional level? :confused:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8335926 - 04/27/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I agree that depending on their cultural/intellectual/spiritual background, combined with their research, most people can't fully understand what taking the red pill entails.





Yea man, thats exactly what I mean. I Should have said that in the first place.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335949 - 04/27/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think it is possible to understand a general idea of what is to come, or at least something beyond COMPLETE UNAWARENESS (as with a cat)?

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335951 - 04/27/08 09:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I'm saying that we can't understand how the drug effects the cat psychologically; the physical reactions are fairly evident based on that video and article.




But of course you are assuming these freak-outs aren't an awesome time....

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335958 - 04/27/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not assuming anything. I already stated that I know nothing of the cat's emotional and psychological reaction to the drug. Those involuntary convulsions don't appear enjoyable to me, but who knows.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335968 - 04/27/08 10:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Either we can empathize with cats, and your studies will represent some kind of argument, or we can't and this fact alone will be your argument. There is no in between. I will debate no further unless you accept one or the other.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335979 - 04/27/08 10:02 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

No, that video and article only stated what we can SEE (once again, PHYSICAL reaction). I'm not the one running circles here.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8335999 - 04/27/08 10:04 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Just for the sake of clarity:

em·pa·thy

1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

This has nothing to do with the observation of physical reaction. You cannot empathize with a cat.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8336001 - 04/27/08 10:05 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, so what other point was there to posting the video, other than evoking an emotional response (empathizing) with/concerning the cat?

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8336006 - 04/27/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The point of posting the video was to show what would happen if you dosed your cat (to the extent that we can understand - physically).

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8336020 - 04/27/08 10:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

And the context of this thread is the well-beings of dosed cats, so if it was not intended to say anything concerning this, you should delete it. (Rather than having it imply this, as we both know it does).

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8336029 - 04/27/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I thought the context of this thread was the comparison of introducing humans and cats to LSD.

I think the video is an appropriate wake-up call to the kinds of people who would actually dose their cat under the assumption that their experience will be at all similar to the cat's experience. Once again, that video is considered a low dosage, and the differences between human and cat are very clear.

I'm not implying anything that I have not already stated. If you feel I am, it is your personal opinion.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8336030 - 04/27/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

double

Edited by Cameron (04/27/08 10:15 PM)

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8336041 - 04/27/08 10:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The context of this thread is ethics, which ultimately concerns the well being of others. If the video has nothing to do with the well-being of cats or humans, then you should stop derailing the thread and delete it.

Edited by daytripper23 (04/27/08 10:35 PM)

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8336068 - 04/27/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It seems we need to consult the dictionary yet again:

eth·ics

4. that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.

I have been arguing exactly this throughout the thread, while you have been deviating from your original contention and questions, all the while ignoring most of my questions and de-railing the thread yourself (demanding that I delete a video displaying the physical reactions of a cat on LSD in a thread about the ethics of dosing a cat? Give me a break).

I don't have time for this. I've said my piece; I have no desire to play ego games or 'find-a-new-argumentative-approach'.

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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: Cameron]
    #8336175 - 04/27/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

A couple things:

ethics defined as : "that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions."

This is from my understanding a simple elaboration of what I said. Ethics ultimately concerns the well being of others, because this is what we base "good or bad" on. What else?

Although I am convinced of this, it isnt necessary to label my thread as "ethical". The label has nothing to do with it. The context of this thread is obviously to both you and I, the well being of others, particularly cats and humans. Now if this is not "ethical", I do not know what is. But regardless of its label, I think we both know what this thread is about. :smirk:

And I agree boo ego!

Like I said I cant further elaborate upon your argument, because I believe it to be delusional. I hate how through the internet, this seems like such a derogatory remark, but this has nothing to do with ego. If we are both pursuing "truth", there should be no problem, because it has nothing to do with win or lose. I do realize you must think I am wrong also. Otherwise I would say your being a complete dick. :lol:

We are in the same boat here. Its disagreement, and I hope it is genuine disagreement. This way I can respect you, and you can respect me.

I can agree to disagree, until/if it is resolved. I dont think it will be though

:mushroom2:

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Invisibleklimt
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8336884 - 04/28/08 08:16 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I don't agree with your premise that an acid trip is indescribable. Talking with experienced people, reading trip reports and well written literature can give a pretty good idea of what tripping will be like.

Furthermore, a human has a choice and is responsible for their actions.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: klimt]
    #8336955 - 04/28/08 09:30 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well actually Id like to restate my premise a little more clearly. I am not just talking about a particular trip, more the general path that acid puts you on, or the general confrontation with reality that is there even when you come down.

As compass said, the red pill or the blue pill. This is exactly what I am talking about.

I am not so much trying to say that dosing your cat is ethical, more that both of these circumstances are shady. Like I said, i do not dose my cat, but I would also not give my friend the red pill.

But, I further know that the red pill would never be experienced if it wasn't somehow passed along, so I am open to the notion. I think the evolution of perspective towards higher states is the natural path, so you might be able to see why I compare this to dosing my pets. There really is no safety net whatsoever with either humanity or lower forms of consciousness. It comes down to the red pill or the blue pill, and really more fundamentally, existence or non-existence. I mean what Cameron has said might have some credence, (although I really dont think so,) but really its totally besides the point I am trying to make.

Offering the red pill seems very much like assuming the role of a guru, no matter what sort of consciousness the student is.

Edited by daytripper23 (04/28/08 09:36 AM)

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OfflineLimes
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Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 94
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. [Re: deranger]
    #8336969 - 04/28/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

maybe they gave the cat too much, according to bodyweight and such, and thats sooo not the way to treat a tripping living creature, grabbing it by its skin and dropping it on its face :mad2:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Ethics of dosing your friend vs dosing your cat. *DELETED* [Re: Limes]
    #8337009 - 04/28/08 10:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by daytripper23

Reason for deletion: getting sidetracked


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