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OfflineLilDon697
street chemist
Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 267
Loc: Jerzy
Last seen: 3 years, 30 days
Using Creatine
    #832323 - 08/21/02 09:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Would this be good to put into the mix??

I figured if I had a little, maybe it would make bigger mushrooms


--------------------
A Pimps only as good as his hoes!!!


Edited by DinoMyc (08/22/02 10:25 AM)


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: LilDon697]
    #832405 - 08/21/02 09:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)



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OfflineLilDon697
street chemist
Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 267
Loc: Jerzy
Last seen: 3 years, 30 days
Re: Using Creatine [Re: ]
    #832521 - 08/21/02 10:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

lol . . .healthy shrooms . . .ill eat a couple n then work out .. . .haha


--------------------
A Pimps only as good as his hoes!!!


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Anonymous

Re: Using Creatine [Re: LilDon697]
    #834248 - 08/21/02 08:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: ]
    #834478 - 08/21/02 09:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I tried a bunch of experimental jars using creatine and they didn't fare too well. Certainly not special anyway.


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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #834482 - 08/21/02 09:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As for what his source is, bodybuilding supplement creatine powder of course. Basically pure. You can buy it at any health food store, its one bodybuilding supplement that actually does work. Probably not very useful for mushroom growing though.


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #835525 - 08/22/02 10:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Creatine may well work, but it is horrible for you body (Talk to any sports doctor not paid by a professional team, or otherwise 'in bed' with soemthing simmilar). You can achieve anything on creatine without creatine, so why risk it?


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: DinoMyc]
    #837258 - 08/23/02 03:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Creatine is not a steroid. Nor are many doctors at the forefront of research. Just because they have that piece of paper does not mean they are then experts of sports nutrition for the rest of their lives, the trouble with society is that everything has to go through its condemnation phase and that we have to listen to doctors give advice from the time when they went to medical school.

Not that I want to get into a flame war but you're wrong. State papers where it says creatine is wrong. As far as I have read creatine is considered to be a safe supplement. Lots of people like to talk shit about it because essentially from the myriad of natural supplements its the only one that really does the trick very effectively.

I know plenty of guys who take creatine, I know a guy who has been taking it for 20 years. He's still standing, healthy and a national record holder in benchpress nonetheless.

This isn't going to end up in a flame war but if you can post a study which shows conclusive evidence then maybe I'll pull out my sources and give you a nice few to say otherwise. If you've never taken creatine then you will not know the effects, I don't consider it absolutely imperative that I use it all the time but it does offer a degree of enhancement to phsyical activity. Even if you have tried it, chances are you obviously have not experienced the positive effects of it. Too many people think it is a steroid, creatine does not really make you grow any faster (except water retention), it merely helps you go harder in the gym.. which might consequently spur on growth but most people overtrain anyway so it doesn't help to load creatine into their system.

On the subject of creatine as an addition to substrate I take back what I said earlier. Of all my experimental jars I started the creatine ones are looking quite okay.

I'll leave you with some food for thought from the premier bodybuilding site that delivers decent research material to us all.

Aside from possibly protecting against neurodegenerative diseases, oral creatine supplementation might actually make you smarter by strengthening memory functions and intellectual capability. It may also lengthen life expectancy in certain conditions and improve fat metabolism. Finally, creatine biosynthesis has been postulated as having a major influence on reducing homocysteine concentration in the plasma, which has been identified as a risk factor for atherosclerotic disease. By decreasing homocysteine production, oral creatine supplementation may also lower the risk for developing coronary heart disease or cerebrovascular disease. (1)(Taken From)
Creatine Fact and Fancy
Report from the ACSM Health and Fitness Summit


Edited by utopianglory (08/23/02 03:41 AM)


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #838182 - 08/23/02 01:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I understand that creatine is not a steroid.
I'm sorry if my statement seemed too harsh, this is a longer version:
Creatine is naturally produced in your body, given proper diet you have no need for additional amounts.
Creatine causes water retention, which is a major reason for its effectiveness, but which also can (not in everyone..) cause kidney problems. This information comes from studies and from direct discussion with (several) doctors.
Creatine works, but causes 'withdrawl' after supplementation is cut off, as your body ceases production due to the large influx available (especially as these amounts are beyond that which is necessary or desired). This is a similar reason to why taking any supplements which are naturally produced in you body consistently is a bad idea.

I'm not trying to say that it is like pouring drano down your throat or anything, just that it has it's dangers. If, after evaluating the info, you decide it's worth it, go for it. Personally, I do not see the point. Achieving a number while weightlifting used to be important to me, but its not anymore.
Enjoy your day.


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: DinoMyc]
    #838588 - 08/23/02 05:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Once again you are spreading misinformation.

"Creatine is naturally produced in your body, given proper diet you have no need for additional amounts."

Incorrect, whilst creatine is naturally produced in your body supplementation clearly has its effect, so additional amounts do benefit endurance related exercise. One of the largest stores of creatine is in lean meat, to give you an idea of what you're suggesting take this in to account. Approximately 1kg of steak must be consumed to gain a 5g dose of creatine, which of course will be rejected by your stomach because no stomach is going to process a kilo of steak. 5g of creatine is hardly anything. So with proper diet you can basically have little to no effect on your creatine levels. Not to mention the fact that putting heat to creatine destroys it.

"Creatine causes water retention, which is a major reason for its effectiveness, but which also can (not in everyone..) cause kidney problems. This information comes from studies and from direct discussion with (several) doctors."

I already posted a report saying the same thing, albeit pointing out that if there are no specific kidney problems in the subject, they SHOULD be okay. I don't see many people reducing their alcohol use because it is detrimental to their liver. That is of course beside the point.

"Creatine works, but causes 'withdrawl' after supplementation is cut off, as your body ceases production due to the large influx available (especially as these amounts are beyond that which is necessary or desired). This is a similar reason to why taking any supplements which are naturally produced in you body consistently is a bad idea.

The truth is that after a period of time of supplementing creatine your body essentially shuts down its creatine production and must rely on supplementation. This is the reason for creatine cycling, so that the body does not shut down creatine production. When one stops using creatine they might feel a little flat for a week or so in the gym but it is not withdrawal symptoms atall, thats bullshit. I have never felt 'withdrawal symptoms" ever from coming off creatine.

Its not that you're necessarily speaking false information. You're just speaking typical scare mongering talk and some of it is consequently exaggerated.



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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #839454 - 08/24/02 12:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I am really not trying to get into a flame war or an arguement..
as you say at the end it is not 'exactly' misinformation, yet you state so at the beginning of you post.
Most/all of the info you quote is from sources which promote creatine or have other alterior motives. I know many lifters/bodybuilders who chose to use creatine, and it does well for them; the effectiveness is not in question. All of the lifters/bodybuilders who I know who have stopped creatine (even when they were cycleing it properly, etc) generally lost more than they gained from creatine, and the extra water weight had caused stretch marks in some cases. Those people I know who avoided creatine and instead simply kept a good diet and structured exercise, essentially without much regard to which method they chose (HIT, "volume training", etc.) achieved the same goals, albeit with more time. Creatine is naturally produced from it's constituent amino acids, so direct consumption is not necessary (one reason why the huge amount of raw steak argument is not as valid as it appears on the surface). Your body is composed of a multitude of balanced systems, and slight perturbation of any of these can have rippling effects. There is a reason for your body to cease production after extensive supplementation, it has enough or, more than likely, far too much. While you may well not feel withdrawal symptoms, you do indeed go through 'withdrawal' in terms of natural production.
If you chose to take it, go for it, just do not ignore what is happening.
As to the kidney problems, I have been told through several personal discussions with a variety of (well respected) doctors in a variety of occupations (Orthopods, most sports oriented, surgeons, PC docs, and ER docs).. not a single one said that creatine was a good idea, and many (the surgeons and Orthopods mostly) had several cases of severe problems they treated in patients of theirs due solely to creatine supplementation. I am not trying to spread misinformation or be a "scare monger". I take the overwhelming consensus of professionals in the relevant field over the marketing firms for the manufacturers or their spokesmen.
have a good day.


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Anonymous

Re: Using Creatine [Re: DinoMyc]
    #839596 - 08/24/02 02:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,478
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Using Creatine [Re: ]
    #839695 - 08/24/02 05:24 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If you eat meat then you get enough creatine for your body. If you dont you need creatine to maintain healthy muscles.

Your body can only absorb and metabolize a certain amount of any substance and in a regular moderatly healthy diet with meat and milk you get all that you need so their is no need to "supliment" anything.

A weak diet may not give you enough. A dose of 20g to 25g per day for one week will fill your muscles with creatine and a sustaining dose of 2g to 5g per day is needed.

Creatine helps quick intense activity by helping replenish adrenosine triphosphate and isnt verry beneficial for endurance sports training.

Nobody knows if creatine is safe to dake ofer a long period and atheletes are recomended to cycle their creatine use. They do know that it causes water retention and can lead to kidney failure

Recomendation: Use this stuff in cycles at low doses, large doses are just excreted anyway, avoid dehydration and do not take before working out and DO NOT take if you have kidney problems..

IDIOTS GUIDE TO VITAMINS AND MINERALS SECOND EDITION
Garry Null Ph.D. Pg. 245-246


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Using Creatine [Re: ]
    #840237 - 08/24/02 11:18 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

again, the alcoholics humor
I remember a drinking game I played once with a girl called 'I win', unfortunately the goal was get me drunk, as it was 'I win' for her, and 'I lose' for me (for her devious purposes, not entirely to my objection).


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Using Creatine [Re: GabbaDj]
    #840249 - 08/24/02 11:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So where would vegetarians come into this, and what of your bodies natural synthesis of creatine from its constituents?
and is this the same Dr. Null: http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: DinoMyc]
    #840750 - 08/24/02 04:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This is neither a flame war nor an argument, its not heated, its just a coming together of two schools of thought.

I am fairly sure as to where you think I am coming from. Mr I-WANNA-GET-HY-OOGE, thats not me, I'm not that person.

"Most/all of the info you quote is from sources which promote creatine or have other alterior motives."

I must admit, that comment angered me. Typical scare mongering talk, can't take the information one has been given so you choose to attack the source. That site doesn't sell/promote creatine, it brings research from sporting nutrition and is probably the most trustworthy source of bodybuilding nutrition research around.

Alterior motives? what sort of complete and utter stupid remark is that? , what exactly are you suggesting? nothing!. For one the information on that site does not come from the maintainers themselves but research done in the sporting nutrition world. The fact that they might sound even mildly pro-creatine whilst writing it might be because the research shows that creatine is relatively safe for those without pre-existing kidney conditions - those that show moderation and don't eat 100g a day. Like I said, find the research from a recent source, like I did (ie 2002) and show me where they make the remark that creatine is not safe for consumption.

Nobody gains muscle from creatine, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Its an endurance thing. Creatine does allow water retention so more than likely thats just water. Anybody can lose water easily, just cut down on carbs and the first thing you'll see vanish is a lot of your water weight.

"Your body is composed of a multitude of balanced systems, and slight perturbation of any of these can have rippling effects. There is a reason for your body to cease production after extensive supplementation, it has enough or, more than likely, far too much. While you may well not feel withdrawal symptoms, you do indeed go through 'withdrawal' in terms of natural production.
If you chose to take it, go for it, just do not ignore what is happening."

You've reworded what I said in response to your comment and given it back to me? - (with your scare mongering twist on it of course) - reality is the production will start up pretty quickly anyway, like I said - you might just feel a bit flat in the gym. (I have reworded what I said to you last post and given it back to you)

Anyway, I'm not saying that everybody is going to be safe with creatine, thats like saying everybody is going to be safe with alcohol.



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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: DinoMyc]
    #840756 - 08/24/02 04:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Btw, I would not supplement creatine unless I was doing resistance exercise, I have no trouble training without creatine so I do not think vegetarians need supplement it into their diet


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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #840764 - 08/24/02 04:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

GabbaDJ,

"A weak diet may not give you enough. A dose of 20g to 25g per day for one week will fill your muscles with creatine and a sustaining dose of 2g to 5g per day is needed."

That is essentially what I would take with creatine though research has been proven that creatine loading isn't necessary and a reasonable (5-10g) dose per day is okay.

However, I find that source to be strange because I seriously doubt anybody gets a lot of creatine from their diet. As I stated earlier, for a 5g dose it is some ridiculous amount of steak you need to eat - steak being the highest source of 'natural' creatine (I think).



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Invisibleutopianglory
Spunkmuffin
Registered: 07/20/02
Posts: 965
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #840772 - 08/24/02 04:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Dinomyc,

I respect your opinion and I think you're probably right for erring on the side of caution with creatine. I don't take it heavily very often just because it tastes like crap and makes me shit so often we use way to much paper in the restroom. Don't want this to turn into some irate shouting match so maybe we should agree that its a little too early to be sure either way as to whether its safe.



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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Using Creatine [Re: utopianglory]
    #841386 - 08/24/02 11:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed.
The major reason I made a comment was the direct reports of some of the dangers from people I know and respect in the medical profession, and I did not want to be negligent in reminding people of the potential dangers or lack of need, as I see it, involved.
The comment about people who have ulterior motives was in regard to the many people I have seen promoting creatine who were indeed swayed by or directly involved with what I will call 'tainted' research, much like the Atkins diet research ("lower cholesterol", while the study demonstrated only lower over all cholesterol, and that being lower due to a loss of LDL rather than HDL, and in some, many, cases, higher HDL... Primary loss of weight due to loss of muscle, etc..)..
Everyone is free to make their own choices, but everyone should make those choices based on knowledge not ignorance; all sides must be represented, irregardless of the possible confusion or disagreement.




--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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