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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Middleman]
#8325561 - 04/25/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said: Fair enough.
The internet and 9/11 seemed impossible to me a long time ago, they weren't miraculous enough for you?
The internet has been around for my entire life... and I'm 32... although the only people who could access it until the mid 90's were military folk... scholars and programmers.
I had a front row seat for 9/11... I assure you it was no miracle.
Quote:
What if aliens landed tomorrow but didn't know anything about God or the origin of DNA?
Then, they'd be a lot like us.
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Nothing 'paranormal' here folks? Just another humanoid? Still no such thing as 'Spirit'?
SPIRITS EXIST.
They DO...
They just don't exist in the PHYSICAL REALM.
Thoughts are SPIRITUAL. But thoughts exist... right?
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And what if they caught Bigfoot? "Just another earth creature? No big deal?
*An elusive Earth creature... with big feet.
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What if a suitcase nuke went off in a US major city, marshal law was declared and the internet shut down?
I dunno... what if?
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The miraculous isn't something that's seen, but how one sees...
Perhaps...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: allisthesame]
#8326267 - 04/25/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
allisthesame said: Whatever... Breathe in love and breathe out forgiveness. I like that... see that is why come on these boards... but I don't see anyone trying to make a point on anything here... only countering someone elses. Like as if anyone were to post a new topic, one would have to scan it to spot any inconsistencies and warn the topic starter and others that said thread is not agreeable only disagreeable. Maybe I little bit of an overstatement but still, I literally see every idea, I like anyway, shot down. Because people are so opinionated here... cause of this knowledge and shit...
And bla bla bla, whine, whine, whine,
Great post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: future]
#8326270 - 04/25/08 08:44 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
future said: for the first time, maybe ever, we've been close to a miraculous breakthrough in something. Technology is absurd. The next big step HAS to be close.
Yipee
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Noviseer
Percussion isFree
Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 3,994
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Rose]
#8326354 - 04/25/08 09:37 AM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said: You should know by now that the, "I make my own definitions for words" argument doesn't work around here.
Hey, it works in the California Supreme Court
A little more on the "using words properly" argument, cause I find it interesting.
In contract law there's a doctrine called "parol evidence." Basically, to prevent people from making things up about negotiations and lying about the terms of the contract, the judge will look at the signed piece of paper, and if it looks like a complete agreement, he won't let either party bring in extrinsic evidence to explain what the parties really meant.
One exception to the rule arises when the contract contains ambiguous words. There is a famous case between a US chicken seller and a german buyer--apparently in Germany, "chicken" means young chicken, where in America it just means, you know, a type of bird, without an age condition. So in that case, due to the special ambiguity exception, the parties were allowed to bring in evidence to explain what "chicken" really meant.
Now with that background, here's Chief Justice Traynor of the California Supreme Court on the meaning of words, in a famous case from the 60's.
[A contractor and subcontractor are arguing about what a clause in their contract meant.]
"Having determined that the contract had a plain meaning, the court refused to admit any extrinsic evidence that would contradict its interpretation.
When a court interprets a contract on this basis, it determines the meaning of the instrument in accordance with the 'extrinsic evidence of the judge's own linguistic education and experience.' The exclusion of a testimony that might contradict the linguistic background of the judge reflects a judicial belief in the possibility of perfect verbal expression. This belief is a remnant of a primitive faith in the inherent potency and inherent meaning of words.
If words had absolute and constant referents, it might be possible to discover contractual intention in the words themselves and in the manner in which they were arranged. Words, however, do not have absolute and constant referents. 'A word is a symbol of thought but has no arbitrary and fixed meaning like a symbol of algebra or chemistry.' The meaning of a particular word or groups of words varies with the 'verbal context and surrounding circumstances and purposes in view of the linguistic education and experience of their users and their hearers or readers.'
'A word has no meaning apart from these factors; much less does it have an objective meaning, one true meaning.' (Corbin, The Interpretation of Words and the Parol Evidence Rule, 1965)
-------------------- _______________________________________________________________ namaste said: no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped _________________________________________________________________
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allisthesame
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 365
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Icelander]
#8327785 - 04/25/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mod Edit: No Flaming Please.
-------------------- Guess what?; You... A spot of Sunshine: We are energy,... matter is energy that simply has been reduced to a crawl and condensed together to form something.
Edited by Middleman (04/25/08 05:34 PM)
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: allisthesame]
#8327832 - 04/25/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Don't let people get to you dude, don't give in to frustration or anger. This is Jedi training.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 14 hours
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Middleman]
#8327904 - 04/25/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is Jedi training.
There's some truth to that
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 14 hours
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Lion]
#8327907 - 04/25/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Cept no one's teaching me to levitate things or fight flawlessly
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Lion]
#8327951 - 04/25/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hatred leads to power. Power leads to victory. Let your anger flow through you. Your hate will make you strong.
--Sith Code.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Noviseer]
#8328041 - 04/25/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noviseer said:
Quote:
Cervantes said: You should know by now that the, "I make my own definitions for words" argument doesn't work around here.
A little more on the "using words properly" argument, cause I find it interesting.
So do I... if you have not noticed.
I'll gladly concede your point, that words are alive and their meaning is in constant flux...
IF you concede mine:
Hippies take this creative wordplay to an extreme which makes actual discussion quite difficult... unless you like talking in circles. This forum could use a little less creativity and a little more adherance to definition.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Rose]
#8328047 - 04/25/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
This forum could use a little less creativity and a little more adherance to definition.
As far as the 'Spirituality' part is concerned, this forum could use a little less adherence to definition and a little more creativity.
I guess we just have different reasons for being here, I'll try to keep my beak out.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Middleman]
#8328089 - 04/25/08 06:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Most people around here don't even know what spirituality means.
Come on Middle, you know I love to argue... and we are on the same team... I just get tired of talking in riddles... and it is a topic I haven't yet seen addressed.
People like Terrance McKenna found a way to talk SPECIFICALLY about abstract things like tripping. If you listen to his description of his first DMT trip... you KNOW what he his talking about... you can understand him precisely because he DOESN'T talk in riddle-ese.
Talking in circles is a cool thing to do around here, because it is one of the few places where you can do so in ENGLISH, and people will know what you are talking about... so I appreciate why you enjoy doing it. However, outside this website, such communication skills offer little help.
When the day is done, we could accomplish much more as this forum, if we found a common language to speak.
I suggest we start with English.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 14 hours
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Rose]
#8328178 - 04/25/08 07:11 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nice signature Cervantes.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Rose]
#8328179 - 04/25/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
People like Terrance McKenna found a way to talk SPECIFICALLY about abstract things like tripping. If you listen to his description of his first DMT trip... you KNOW what he his talking about... you can understand him precisely because he DOESN'T talk in riddle-ese.
Strange you should mention Terence, I've been listening to a lot of his lectures lately.
He said the only way for entheogen users to be accepted by society is if we form a consensus language and unite as a social group despite our wide range of views and status.
Quote:
Cervantes said:
When the day is done, we could accomplish much more as this forum, if we found a common language to speak.
And what are we accomplishing? I'm here to collect signposts, develop lyrical ideas, and drop leads on vectors of inquiry.
I'm more interested in the ways that people express themselves in words than the validity of the point that they are trying to make.
Fun is integral.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Middleman]
#8328196 - 04/25/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes, fun is integral. I have fun by arguing... you have fun by talking in Zen circles. Nothing wrong with either choice.
Terrance knew his linguistics... and that helped further the study of psychedelics.
We COULD accomplish something here... nobody yet knows WHY psychedelics awaken the spiritual side in so many people. It IS something we can be on the forefront of discovering. The Shroomery could do its part.
When I was working on the Tripper's FAQ, I needed THIS forum more than the other ones. For so many, tripping IS spirituality. This forum COULD be on to something, if we'd all agree to communicate.
I have believed this for a LONG time.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 14 hours
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Rose]
#8328227 - 04/25/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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In my experience most people here care more about what psychedelic experiences mean to them than they care about being in the vanguard of psychedelic inquiry. I don't care how psychedelics work, I care that they work. And I don't really care whether psychedelics become widely used and accepted, because I don't think they're necessary to fixing the world's problems or being a spiritual person. But members of this forum have helped me integrate my experiences, and often that help has come in the form of abstract insight, koan-like writing, and such. I think a balance is ideal.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Lion]
#8328244 - 04/25/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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I care HOW they work, 'cause we tell people HOW to grow 'em... so, shouldn't we understand HOW to TRIP too?
Anything else is potentially unsafe.
I got in trouble here a while back, trying to keep one of the few SCIENTIFIC voices in this forum from being perma-banned. He was banned 'cause he hurt people's feelings... by NOT talking in circles. It was a shame.
BECAUSE, outside the Shroomery, like it or not, the ONLY way we can make A LEGITIMATE POINT is to speak with the voice of SCIENCE.
Spirituality is cool and spirituality is real...
But until we figure out WHAT psychedelics really DO, we'll never be able to make them legal... or even prove them USEFUL.
This forum COULD do its part.
It really could.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Rose]
#8328247 - 04/25/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
This forum COULD be on to something, if we'd all agree to communicate.
We are onto something and we are communicating.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now [Re: Middleman]
#8328256 - 04/25/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Finally.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Middleman
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Always coming soon, but never here and now *DELETED* [Re: Rose]
#8328268 - 04/25/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 10 months ago) |
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Societies change.
Approaching the psychedelic experience from a mechanistic view is preposterous.
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