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InvisibleMinstrel
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Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War
    #8310891 - 04/21/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Greetings Americans of the Shroomery. I'll take this opportunity to thank you for your diverse opinions (though often at odds with my own, they are a welcome opportunity to shock me out of my usual dogma).

I feel I've come to a conclusion regarding the legitimacy of the United States occupation of Iraq, as described with respect to the operations of a Republic. Here, it is recited in Socratic form.
I hope you all understand that the form of government of the United States is a republic, not a democracy. In a democracy, 51% could by right enslave the other 49%; simple rule of the majority. A republic recognizes inalienable rights, which no law shall be made to abridge, regardless of the majority will.
The Iraq war is opposed by the majority of Americans (I last recall some 60% opposition). Now, (what ever the number may actually be), it is irresponsible for that majority to jeopardize the security of the rest. Those other citizens have a right to be protected from terror. Even if absolutely EVERYONE opposed the war, it must still continue, to protect your freedom!

Is this not an accurate assessment of the situation?


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: Minstrel]
    #8311298 - 04/21/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

> Even if absolutely EVERYONE opposed the war, it must still continue, to protect your freedom!

What freedom is there if the government protects the freedom against the will of EVERYONE? Freedom is lost, not gained, when the government stops obeying the will of the people and instead forces the people to endure the will of the government for their own good.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleThe Tourist
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: Minstrel]
    #8312171 - 04/21/08 08:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Your assertion that the war must go on in order to protect our freedom can't be substantiated. It's an opinion and impossible to prove right or wrong.

I happen to believe that we have a very base-minded and medieval belief system which casues us to believe that killing as many terrorists as we can in the manner that we currently are will actually make us safer.
This is a very, VERY simple concept... imagine yourself sitting down for dinner in your house, when your neighbor's house is blown to bits by an enemy force that is bent on killing all of the people who are part of the organization or ideology that your neighbor was part of (you are fully aware that the attackers are acting out of claimed self-defense). Your neighbor and his family are all dead or dying, shrapnel disfigures your face, your wife is killed and her body mangled, and your daughter's arms and legs are shredded and she is no longer recognizable.
How do you now feel about this situation? What do you think of the people who perpetrated the attacks?

How in hell can what we are doing not lead to MORE hatred, killing, suffering, separation, racism, xenophobia, and misunderstanding???????

It's time to give our mentality and world view a fucking rehaul, and time to move on to a better one. This sequence of reactionary events has been going on for thousands of years. It's time to STOP IT.


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: The Tourist]
    #8312218 - 04/21/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Tourist said:
Your assertion that the war must go on in order to protect our freedom can't be substantiated. It's an opinion and impossible to prove right or wrong.

I happen to believe that we have a very base-minded and medieval belief system which casues us to believe that killing as many terrorists as we can in the manner that we currently are will actually make us safer.
This is a very, VERY simple concept... imagine yourself sitting down for dinner in your house, when your neighbor's house is blown to bits by an enemy force that is bent on killing all of the people who are part of the organization or ideology that your neighbor was part of (you are fully aware that the attackers are acting out of claimed self-defense). Your neighbor and his family are all dead or dying, shrapnel disfigures your face, your wife is killed and her body mangled, and your daughter's arms and legs are shredded and she is no longer recognizable.
How do you now feel about this situation? What do you think of the people who perpetrated the attacks?

How in hell can what we are doing not lead to MORE hatred, killing, suffering, separation, racism, xenophobia, and misunderstanding???????

It's time to give our mentality and world view a fucking rehaul, and time to move on to a better one. This sequence of reactionary events has been going on for thousands of years. It's time to STOP IT.




Why do you hate freedom? Support our troops and be patriotic!

And don't give me that dying children bullshit. Emotional manipulation is so low.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: The Tourist]
    #8312703 - 04/21/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Tourist said:
How in hell can what we are doing not lead to MORE hatred, killing, suffering, separation, racism, xenophobia, and misunderstanding???????






are you saying human nature is wrong?

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InvisibleThe Tourist
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8312832 - 04/22/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Weak.
Define human nature.



Who says human nature isn't to develop ideas and act on them to create better lives for ourselves? Who says human nature isn't to be sentient, self-conscious beings who have the ability to make decisions and choices based on our thoughts and philosophies as individuals and as groups?


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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InvisibleThe Tourist
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: Minstrel]
    #8312859 - 04/22/08 12:25 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Holy fuck, am I speaking with Bill O'Reilly?!?!

You know what's lower than pointing out the suffering of our human brothers and sisters? Accusing people of "hating freedom" and not supporting their countries service men and women, based on absolutely NOTHING.


You have conveniently chosen a mentality where you allow yourself to dismiss the suffering and injustice imposed on others under the guise of patriotism and avoiding "emotional manipulation". Grow some fucking balls.


My point wasn't even to spread some simple and decent sympathy for the victims of our country's illegal violence. My point was that if your civilian family and/or friends were killed by another country's military, it's pretty damn likely you would hate that country more than you did before you lost your friends, and, of course, more than you did before they began destroying your entire country.
And don't you dare accuse me of denying the fact that we got rid of Saddam's control of Iraq and the Taliban's control of Afghanistan. I'm simply recommending that we be realistic and put ourselves in Afghanis' and Iraqis' shoes. To many (probably most) what we did was destroy their country, not "liberate" them.


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: The Tourist]
    #8313352 - 04/22/08 05:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Who says human nature isn't to be sentient, self-conscious beings who have the ability to make decisions and choices based on our thoughts and philosophies as individuals and as groups?




History and observation.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: The Tourist]
    #8313420 - 04/22/08 06:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Tourist said:
Your assertion that the war must go on in order to protect our freedom can't be substantiated. It's an opinion and impossible to prove right or wrong.

I happen to believe that we have a very base-minded and medieval belief system which causes us to believe that killing as many terrorists as we can in the manner that we currently are will actually make us safer.
This is a very, VERY simple concept... imagine yourself sitting down for dinner in your house, when your neighbor's house is blown to bits by an enemy force that is bent on killing all of the people who are part of the organization or ideology that your neighbor was part of (you are fully aware that the attackers are acting out of claimed self-defense). Your neighbor and his family are all dead or dying, shrapnel disfigures your face, your wife is killed and her body mangled, and your daughter's arms and legs are shredded and she is no longer recognizable.
How do you now feel about this situation? What do you think of the people who perpetrated the attacks?

How in hell can what we are doing not lead to MORE hatred, killing, suffering, separation, racism, xenophobia, and misunderstanding???????

It's time to give our mentality and world view a fucking rehaul, and time to move on to a better one. This sequence of reactionary events has been going on for thousands of years. It's time to STOP IT.




well said. :thumbup: i totally agree. your theory that our war tactics and "collateral damage" will lead to creating more terrorists has been documented by not only CIA atudies, you and I, but also several of my friends who are fighting over there at the moment. in their opinions, which i'm sure are a lot more well formed than ours, we are producing more terrorists for in the long run then we are killing presently. still these men fight on, because of a sense of duty, a sense of hope, or because of fucking lame ass stop loss trapping them in the army...it's a sad sad situation, and you are right, we need to stop this shit. in name of our future children's national security this ridiculous strategy must end!!

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Offlinerexmundi
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Registered: 08/10/07
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #8313532 - 04/22/08 07:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I think people need to go to war every once and a while to remind them how terrible it is. They quickly realize it's not what they thought it would be an become firm believers in peace. After a while the memory fades and they get restless. The cycle continues, it's painfully predictable.


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: rexmundi]
    #8313719 - 04/22/08 09:31 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

rexmundi said:
I think people need to go to war every once and a while to remind them how terrible it is. They quickly realize it's not what they thought it would be an become firm believers in peace. After a while the memory fades and they get restless. The cycle continues, it's painfully predictable.




I think people need war like they need assholes on their elbows. I think governments need war, and they are calculating enough to string people along. In some cases, the people are rightly defending their government from being eaten by another one. In many cases, the government was not truly threatened. Only the most sheep-like Nixonite would still believe that the US was threatened by a communist government in South Vietnam.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: The Tourist]
    #8313739 - 04/22/08 09:37 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Tourist said:
Weak.
Define human nature.





history has defined human nature

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8313774 - 04/22/08 09:57 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
history has defined human nature




Evolution defies definition.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinerexmundi
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8313914 - 04/22/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

rexmundi said:
I think people need to go to war every once and a while to remind them how terrible it is. They quickly realize it's not what they thought it would be an become firm believers in peace. After a while the memory fades and they get restless. The cycle continues, it's painfully predictable.




I think people need war like they need assholes on their elbows. I think governments need war, and they are calculating enough to string people along. In some cases, the people are rightly defending their government from being eaten by another one. In many cases, the government was not truly threatened. Only the most sheep-like Nixonite would still believe that the US was threatened by a communist government in South Vietnam.




I'll give you the assholes on elbows thing, and even that governments do an awful lot of stringing people along. I think the onus still lies with the people. Even if the government lies and says the war is fought in the name of freedom and justice etc. People are willing to go to war and fight for those things, whether they are lies or not. If people really didn't want to go to war they wouldn't. The justification changes, but the habit is consistent.


--------------------
"I Love Democracy"
-Emporer Palpatine


Fuck the system.

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InvisibleThe Tourist
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8315246 - 04/22/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
history has defined human nature




Evolution defies definition.





Ding ding ding
Theeeeeere it is!!


Another aspect:
What about the peaceful, progressive people who didn't necessarily make it into the history books in the name of large-scale events, battles, politics, etc? Thousands and even, for all we know, millions of years ago?
What about the Buddhist movement of modern history? Is that not historically representative of human nature? The willingness to formulate and live out such ideologies that you may say run counter to "human nature".


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8315316 - 04/22/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

nobody credible ever claimed that southvietnam was a physical threat to america, and that sure wasn't why the war was fought

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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: johnm214]
    #8320599 - 04/23/08 07:52 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I would agree with you if the war in Iraq had anything to do with the war on terror.

But actually, it is a hindrance. Iraq was never linked to Al Qaeda before we invaded. Iraq was Sunni, Al Qaeda was Shia. Iraq did not have WMDs.

Our current intentions in Iraq are not pure. Depleted Uranium missiles which are "safe for handling" (but not safe for inhalation after they blow up) are destroying our soldiers health and the health of innocent civilians in Iraq. We have done nothing besides bribe some of the major militia leaders to keep Iraqis from engaging in civil war, and it seems like we may have missed a payment.

It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with oil and global military strategy.

BTW your knowledge of American politics and government seems very slim. Maybe you should attend a high school or something.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: kriminalelement]
    #8320742 - 04/23/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

wtf are you going on about?

what does me rightly claiming that north vietnam wasn't a a military threat to the US have to do w/ iraq? Why are you going on about depleted uranium, impure intentions (whatever that is) and al qaeda in response to my statement?


And thanks for the ad hominem/strawman. What does my knowledge have to do with anything? Discuss the issue, not what you think of me. BTW, if you care to demonstrate my lacking in the area of politics and government go ahead, I'm curious how you impute this from what I said. If this is a rant cuz I said "south" instead of "north" vietnam, sory, but take a deep breath and deal with it.

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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: johnm214]
    #8321006 - 04/23/08 09:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

what does me rightly claiming that north vietnam wasn't a a military threat to the US have to do w/ iraq? Why are you going on about depleted uranium, impure intentions (whatever that is) and al qaeda in response to my statement?





I was responding to the OP, I don't think I even read your post.

EDIT: but nice job of jumping down my throat. You have a career in radio.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs

Edited by kriminalelement (04/23/08 09:27 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: kriminalelement]
    #8321016 - 04/23/08 09:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

:foreheadslap:

Ok, peace and love then

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: kriminalelement]
    #8321073 - 04/23/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

kriminalelement writes:

Quote:

I was responding to the OP, I don't think I even read your post.




To avoid confusion in future, it would be best to learn how to reply to the posters you wish to reply to. Everyone here who is familiar with the bulletin board software in use at The Shroomery believed you were replying to johnm214.




Phred


--------------------

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: kriminalelement]
    #8321353 - 04/23/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

kriminalelement said:
I would agree with you if the war in Iraq had anything to do with the war on terror.

But actually, it is a hindrance. Iraq was never linked to Al Qaeda before we invaded. Iraq was Sunni, Al Qaeda was Shia. Iraq did not have WMDs.

Our current intentions in Iraq are not pure. Depleted Uranium missiles which are "safe for handling" (but not safe for inhalation after they blow up) are destroying our soldiers health and the health of innocent civilians in Iraq. We have done nothing besides bribe some of the major militia leaders to keep Iraqis from engaging in civil war, and it seems like we may have missed a payment.

It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with oil and global military strategy.

BTW your knowledge of American politics and government seems very slim. Maybe you should attend a high school or something.




You're pretty wrong about a lot of things. The populace of Iraq is predominantly Shia. Saddam was a Sunni, though, which is why most Iraqis were all butthurt over him. As for Iraq being Sunni, remember that Iraq is more than lines in the sand drawn by British. By right, Iraqis really shouldn't give a shit about preserving Iraq, a country which is younger than my grandfather.

Remember that to folks that remain pro-war despite all the doublethink, to them it doesn't matter what got us in there; we can't leave or else there will be a bloodbath.

As for Al-Qadea being Shia, that wrong in exactly the same ways you were about Iraq. Al-Qaueda isn't real. What we see are groups like the Mujahadeen and other fractioned Islamic radicals which the media lumps together.
The reason for this lumping is to shorten the activation of the fear response. It takes less brain power to have all this fear channeled though one single conduit from recognition to emotion.
That being said, these groups largely come out of Arabia, which is pretty much all Sunni.

And DU is pretty awesome. Much in the same way 9/11 was awesome. Because awe is what you experience when you learn how frightening this shit is (and don't forget the shock!).
If you want to destroy the genetic material of an entire nation and contaminate the soil for generations to come DU is for you! It is doing EXACTLY what it was designed to do.

This war has more to do with killing Muslims than controlling oil.
Bush, Blair and all the puppets priase Islam as a religion of peace, to appease the docile, and yet codemn Syria, Iran, Fair Lebannon, and besiege Iraq and Afghanistan. So, should we be killing and sterilizing Muslims?
Seriously, what's not to hate about Islam? I think the religion is rather despicable. I think the world is better off without it. But people being killed and irradiated? That's some good Christian values, there.

Oil is a nice muse, though; Cheney and his cronies smile when they see people screaming THE WAR IS ABOUT OIL; it's infinitely better than them screaming ETHNIC CLEANSING.


--------------------

Edited by Minstrel (04/23/08 10:35 PM)

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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Concerning Your Republic, Democracy, and your Iraq War [Re: Minstrel]
    #8321656 - 04/24/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


You're pretty wrong about a lot of things. The populace of Iraq is predominantly Shia. Saddam was a Sunni, though, which is why most Iraqis were all butthurt over him. As for Iraq being Sunni, remember that Iraq is more than lines in the sand drawn by British. By right, Iraqis really shouldn't give a shit about preserving Iraq, a country which is younger than my grandfather.




I never said anything about Iraq BEING sunni, I said Iraq WAS sunni. Because of Saddam, like you said.

I don't think Al qaeda is "fake", and I don't think the whole problem is Sadr either.

As for the rest of what you said in your last post I'm not in disagreement and I don't see the conflict.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs

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