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Helpme1
freak
Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1,424
Loc: shlums-of-meltbanana
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: Anarleaf]
#8297247 - 04/17/08 05:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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spirituality isn't confined necessarily to religion, you can be religious and not be spiritual, conversely you can be spiritual and not be religious.
-------------------- "woah, that cat was really buggin out man, you should have put on some grateful dead so he could relax and enjoi his trip" -random shroomerite
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: Endlessness]
#8299929 - 04/18/08 07:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Endlessness said: So... please explain where is the seat of consciousness, to you. Using your model, explain where is the ´projection of consciousness´ being shown, where is there the unity being provided in the mental processes, considering brain-mind identification theories seem to omit this important fact?
The cortex.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Run DMT
information is Power
Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 1,096
Loc: ignorance is bliss
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: zouden]
#8299984 - 04/18/08 08:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I havent read all this yet, but I used to be an Athiest till my first high dose acid trip. I saw the light and knew there is a god somewhere. It took me awhile to sort out how I now KNOW there is a god yet always BELIEVED there wasnt. I do not believe in organised religion.
-------------------- I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think; I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder - "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecued ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I WANT high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and BUCKETS of cheese, okay? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: zouden]
#8300755 - 04/18/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Endlessness said: So... please explain where is the seat of consciousness, to you. Using your model, explain where is the ´projection of consciousness´ being shown, where is there the unity being provided in the mental processes, considering brain-mind identification theories seem to omit this important fact?
The cortex.
i agree with this it can feel like it is anywhere, even a bowl of water, but that is all in the cerebral cortex. all through the cortex - where ever the signals reverberate there.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
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Nunbuh_Chrubble
I'm just a kittycat
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: redgreenvines]
#8301020 - 04/18/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ironic though, the idea of a cortex can only exist "WITHIN" consciousness, whether it's ones' own or anothers.
The cortex doesn't "contain" consciousness. And the idea that awareness somehow arises from physical processes is as much a claim to miracle as the virgin birth. The best you can say is that neural activity strongly correlates to conscious processes. But as we all know (say it with me everyone!) correlation does not imply causation.
The idea of an objective reality seperate from conscious awareness is absolutely absurd. And if it actually existed there'd be absolutely know way for us to know. "Reality" will forever be ambiguous.
-------------------- "This day is a lover..." ~Rumi
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allisthesame
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/08
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: NariusFractal]
#8301308 - 04/18/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Energy is God. God is a lifeforce... it doesn't think for you, you think for it. Atheism sucks because you aren't acknowledging your own godlyness. God is you... Or no, God just is... you are you and God is everything and nothing or nothing and everything or it just is... no right or wrong just is... and you aren't just you, you are you with this label or that label... you can be in godlyness without labels but God cannot have any labels. God pretty much just renounces and avoid any sin that comes it's way and can't harm it. You can't harm it... you can only harm yourself.
Ramble ramble God durka ramble
-------------------- Guess what?; You... A spot of Sunshine: We are energy,... matter is energy that simply has been reduced to a crawl and condensed together to form something.
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godfather89
GnosticChristian
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 49
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: g00ru]
#8301332 - 04/18/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: See, why would you need to call that god? I know this is just arguing semantics, but couldn't what you just described be...the universe itself?
edit: basically, i think you're referring to god in more of a poetic sense. I'm talking strictly logic and practicality here.
The Definition of God is All-Powerful; All-Knowing; All-Present... If we called God the Ultimate Reality, wouldn't the Ultimate reality than have been:
The Most Powerful Moment: The past is gone, the future is yet to come... anything that happens with the most force happens now.
The Most Knowledge Filled Moment: We knew things, we are learning things and we will continue to learn new things but in this moment is it filled with all the knowledge that was, is and become?
The Final is The Most Present Moment: Now is the only thing present, like I said the past happened and the future is yet to be, but when the future comes into existence it will become present.
I have argued that the minute you start arguing over God's existence, logically speaking, you are already committing a fallacy, Red Herring and Appeal to Tradition. I also argued that The Belief in God is just that its a belief, I will believe in a God and there are those who choose to believe in the disbelief in God. Its a belief this is were spirituality should stop and materialism should stop, they both need to agree that it is their belief and that is it.
As you (dis)believe in something you act accordingly, no one needs to fight but we need to agree that what we are fighting over is not absolutes but beliefs.
-------------------- "What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"
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allisthesame
Stranger
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: godfather89]
#8301382 - 04/18/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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and the reason for God's exsistance is!!1 A DING DING DING DING DING WHIRLLLLL! Yay yay woo hoo I LOVE YOU LORD DING DING DING!!1
-------------------- Guess what?; You... A spot of Sunshine: We are energy,... matter is energy that simply has been reduced to a crawl and condensed together to form something.
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Azrah
Stranger
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: Anarleaf]
#8301796 - 04/18/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hmmmm taking psychedelics and being an atheist isnt so bad, but maybe thats because im spiritual. <not in the religious sense> I've seemed to gain a lot out of it and gained an even more humanistic view than previously doing psychedelics.
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Anarleaf
Teotihualto
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: Anarleaf]
#8302104 - 04/18/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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To the people who said spiritual, that seems kind of broad. What exactly do you mean by spiritual?
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Azrah
Stranger
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: Anarleaf]
#8302164 - 04/18/08 06:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I define spiritual as how aware I am of myself. Of course this is only applies to me because im sure other atheist that are spiritual have a different definition of it too.
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flangenips
Batshitinsanse
Registered: 01/20/08
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Loc: aotearoa
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Quote:
ReoSpeedwagon153 said: Fuck this whole 'god' thing. I think we can all agree on the infinite beauty and mystery of the universe, perhaps we should start from there...
i like this.
Before taking psychedelics i considered myself agnostic, but now am leaning towards atheism combined with ideas of mechanics and even quantumn theory which largely needs more research but i believe could reveal much more about everything if we could get some sort of proven theory. I know what some of you will say though, and i agree, scientific theory can be alot like religion. But it just suits me, these theories are beautiful to me, even quantumn entanglement, biology, and relativity amongst others seem to describe mechanisms that make the universe and life beautiful. I support these over stories of legendary and maybe even mythical prohphets that have been altered over time or by authority.
-------------------- All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: flangenips]
#8302272 - 04/18/08 07:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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when you die that is it.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: flangenips]
#8302334 - 04/18/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
flangenips said: these theories are beautiful to me, even quantumn entanglement, biology, and relativity amongst others seem to describe mechanisms that make the universe and life beautiful. I support these over stories of legendary and maybe even mythical prohphets that have been altered over time or by authority.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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flangenips
Batshitinsanse
Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 1,520
Loc: aotearoa
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: SlashOZ]
#8302346 - 04/18/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said: when you die that is it.
I spose this is where my semi-spiritual side comes in. I hold out hope for some certain quantumn theories about information sub-systems in matter, not for immortalisation reasons, mostly because its a decription of oneness and connectivity. If this holds some truth, our decomposing corpses, or scattered ashes, may get used by other life or be part of geological things. We may not be immortal, but our energy/matter might well be. There is a great book called "Atom", its kinda like a story that follows a single oxygen atom from its creation from energies, it existence in planet forming clouds, its various molecular existences in space and on earth and its consumption in life. OK this does sound lacking in spirituality, but its the best i can do haha.
What i'm getting at is that our death is not completely devoid of meaning.
-------------------- All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: flangenips]
#8302527 - 04/18/08 09:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Agreed, but many religious people think that when we die we go to some sort of afterlife. To me that seems incredibly arrogant.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: flangenips]
#8302574 - 04/18/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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well naturally the atoms and molecues that make up our bodies will be recylced through the universe. our bodies replace cells, molecules, and atoms all the time. i am willing to bet that by the time you live to be 80 years old that every atom in your body has been replaced at least once.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: zouden]
#8302615 - 04/18/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Arrogant, or merely wishful thinking?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Leviathan
Poignancy...
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 131
Loc: NW Pennsylvania
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Re: On Atheism and Hallucinogens. [Re: zouden]
#8307292 - 04/20/08 07:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said: Agreed, but many religious people think that when we die we go to some sort of afterlife. To me that seems incredibly arrogant.
When we die, I don't think "we" would be anything like who we are right now in this life. I think that's quite arrogant to assume.
-------------------- Look me in my brand new EYE....
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 532
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Nunbuh_Chrubble said: Ironic though, the idea of a cortex can only exist "WITHIN" consciousness, whether it's ones' own or anothers.
The cortex doesn't "contain" consciousness. And the idea that awareness somehow arises from physical processes is as much a claim to miracle as the virgin birth. The best you can say is that neural activity strongly correlates to conscious processes. But as we all know (say it with me everyone!) correlation does not imply causation.
The idea of an objective reality seperate from conscious awareness is absolutely absurd. And if it actually existed there'd be absolutely know way for us to know. "Reality" will forever be ambiguous.
A lot of "evidence" that consciousness is a result of brain activity is based on brain injuries affecting perception, consciousness.
Let us for a moment use a tv as an example. All of a sudden the image is gone, and there is static, or a deformed image. a technician comes, opens the tv, and fixes it. the image is back. In the same logic, the image would have been created inside the tv, since a malfunction of the tv influnces the image output.
The only reason this would be absurd, is because we made the tv, and we know that the image is a signal coming from outside the machine.
But we didnt built our brains. we only assume they make us conscious.
-------------------- I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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