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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: anyone420]
#8285850 - 04/15/08 08:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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anyone420 said: The reason for this, is those who seek the power to run the government, are not the ones who wish to abide by the limitations it implies.
No, the reason for this is the lack of oversight by the American people, which is their responsibility and role within the government. It is not due to some innate flaw within the concept or the actualization of government itself.
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Thus, you have a self perpetuating system of ever growing government, and ever growing oppression.
No, there is no "self-perpetuating system". At any point in time, the American people could assume a greater role in ensuring that their government represents them as they intend to be represented. Failure in government is their failure.
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Government, by its very nature, is force.
The nature of everything is force.
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No matter how perfect you design the system, it will always be exploited by those who wish to use it as a catalyst to enforce their beliefs on others lives.
A foundation of the system of the United States' government is that of checks and balances. The check on the exploitation that you refer to is oversight by the people. If they do not assume their responsibility as that check, then of course there will be exploitation. Blaming this on the nature of the system itself is ignorant.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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anyone420
mad buddah abuser
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
#8285893 - 04/15/08 08:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I disagree. When i came into existence on this planet, was i obligated to devote my life to ensuring that a system of supposed order is not exploited? I don't feel that i am obligated to do so, one should be able to live their life without constantly working within an ambiguous system to prevent their independence from being taken away. I'd rather live how i want to without having to play games with someone else's device to stay alive.
Government is self perpetuating by its nature. Cite a government in the history of mankind which didn't expand beyond its original intent. The supposed role of the government is to maintain order, and the means of doing can be micromanaging to no end.
What aspect of our lives does the government not have its nose into? It's estimated that a little under 1/3 people in the US is employed by the government, and this isn't counting private firms that are contracted by the government. And it continues to grow. You claim that government isn't self perpetuating, theres really no evidence to back this claim up. Only evidence of the opposite. When does the lawmaking end?
The checks and balances are fine and dandy, but what we have today is branches of the government, rather than being engaged in a 'battle to keep the government as small as possible' patting each other on the back and saying 'yeah, you can have this extra power, go ahead!"
Take a look at congress giving a single individual the power to decide where a border fence will go, and the ability do void any laws that interfere with the process in the name of expediency. This includes environmentally protected zones, endangered wildlife habitats, native american religous sites (burial sites), ect. Wouldn't it be far more expedient to just say fuck the system of government, lets elect a king george bush. Wouldn't it be more expedient to say, ok king george bush, you can have a 30 year term. Would the process of government not be more expedient in the hands of one person, than in the hands of say.. 600?
The people that run the government are there because they want to be, and no amount of citizen oversight will stop them.
You will begin to see more and more 'patting eachother on the back' by the branches of government. When will you draw the line and say, yeah, government has totally overstepped its bounds?
-------------------- for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright
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fireworks_god
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: anyone420]
#8285968 - 04/15/08 09:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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anyone420 said: I don't feel that i am obligated to do so, one should be able to live their life without constantly working within an ambiguous system to prevent their independence from being taken away.
Where does your sense of how reality "should" be result from, but your own wishful thinking? Tens of thousands of years ago, human life itself, not to mention independence, was constantly challenged by predators who shared no regard for how their prey felt reality "should" be. The nature of reality is that there will always be forces that will seek to take advantage of others for their own gain. The simple fact is that the perspective that you have expressed here is the problem. Of course, you've greatly exaggerated the amount of time and effort that it would require people to practice effective oversight of their government.
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I'd rather live how i want to without having to play games with someone else's device to stay alive.
You've came into being as the result of a species of life that is social by nature, and your survival lies dependent on the subsequent social order. Even if you were living on your own in the woods back in the day, you would still have been playing the survival game of another force's design, no matter how much you would rather not.
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Government is self perpetuating by its nature.
Self-perpetuating, yes. Of course, that is not what you originally spoke of. You specifically referred to a self-perpetuating system by which the size and scope of government increases. Changing what you are discussing instead of addressing the response to what you originally were discussing is not how one has a debate.
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What aspect of our lives does the government not have its nose into?
95% of our day-to-day life.
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It's estimated that a little under 1/3 people in the US is employed by the government
Source?
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You claim that government isn't self perpetuating
No I didn't. I contested the assertion that those who seek to be government officials who do not wish to abide by the limitations on their power create a self-perpetuating system by which government continues to "grow". You deny the fact that a lack of oversight by the people is what is responsible for malignant growth of government when it is clearly the case.
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The checks and balances are fine and dandy, but what we have today is branches of the government, rather than being engaged in a 'battle to keep the government as small as possible' patting each other on the back and saying 'yeah, you can have this extra power, go ahead!"
Could you rephrase this statement? It doesn't make any sense. I clearly referred to the check on the government itself by the people.
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Take a look at congress giving a single individual the power to decide where a border fence will go, and the ability do void any laws that interfere with the process in the name of expediency. This includes environmentally protected zones, endangered wildlife habitats, native american religous sites (burial sites), ect.
A great example of lack of oversight by the people, who elect representatives to Congress and are to oversee their actions in Congress and take steps to ensure that their representatives respect and act upon their will. Of course, this is assuming that the people do not want such an act to occur, perhaps they do.
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Wouldn't it be far more expedient to just say fuck the system of government, lets elect a king george bush. Wouldn't it be more expedient to say, ok king george bush, you can have a 30 year term. Would the process of government not be more expedient in the hands of one person, than in the hands of say.. 600?
It would be more expedient, but I certainly don't see how this form of government would be more beneficial for the people, which is probably why this form of government is not much more than an antiquity in this day and age.
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The people that run the government are there because they want to be, and no amount of citizen oversight will stop them.
Oh, that's right... people don't elect their representatives. Silly me.
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You will begin to see more and more 'patting eachother on the back' by the branches of government. When will you draw the line and say, yeah, government has totally overstepped its bounds?
I've already clearly stated in this thread that I personally feel the American government exists in a form beyond the one that it is granted by the Constitution. However, I also fully recognize that those who are responsible for this is the American people.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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anyone420
mad buddah abuser
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
#8286084 - 04/15/08 09:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I didn't change what i was talking about. I think you misunderstood. I speak of the system as the government itself. The governmental system is self perpetuating. And i don't know why your being so aggressive, lol. I guess your in debate mode but i'm just speaking my mind. I don't claim to be a professional debater, i'm simply a person that does not wish to be governed.
Anyway, so your saying that the people haven't tried hard enough to keep the government small? The past 40 years of libertarian activism has resulted in.. nothing at all. Were they simply not trying hard enough?
I think where we are misunderstanding eachother, is i do not believe that the self-perpetuating nature of the governmental system can be remedied by the rules inherent to the system. I could devote my life to this cause, and for every small victory i had, 50 more laws and regulations would be passed. As far as representatives being elected, I didn't vote for them, and this will tie into my later point, that a democratic system of government simply doesn't work.
And we are getting rather side tracked from the original intent of the topic, which was is government a necessary.
I don't think it is necessary, and i don't think its right to force others to participate in it against their will. What's so outrageous about me living my life as i choose to do so, without someone telling me what is right and wrong? Do you think that the people in the white house know whats best for you? They want to enslave and rob you.
What government functions and services could not be offered by the market place?
Anything not offered on a voluntary basis, as in, anything that is coercive and invasive is wrong.
-------------------- for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright
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gluke bastid
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: anyone420]
#8286099 - 04/15/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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anyone420 said: Arguably.. the united states government is the most efficient form of government ever tried and tested in the real world.
I would argue that Facism was the most efficient form of government ever tried and tested in the real world. It was the least beneficial for the people, but damn effective in terms of efficiency. None of Hitler's policies got lost in any bureacratic red tape...no philibustering...no congress refusing to pass a bill...no supreme court interference. If you are talking in terms of efficiency, US Democracy is a nightmare compared to a Facist system. If you are talking in terms of civil liberty and a system of checks and balances backed by a constitution, its vice versa.
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The reason for this, is those who seek the power to run the government, are not the ones who wish to abide by the limitations it implies.
Thus, you have a self perpetuating system of ever growing government, and ever growing oppression.
Government, by its very nature, is force.
No matter how perfect you design the system, it will always be exploited by those who wish to use it as a catalyst to enforce their beliefs on others lives.
Reminds me of Plato's dialogues on Morality. He said that the people most fit to rule are not those who are desirous of power, but those who are willing to assume positions of power because they see an opportunity to run things better than those who are corrupt. A refreshing idea isn't it? Kind of makes you wish the DNC and RNC would all be swept away in a vast tempest.
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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anyone420
mad buddah abuser
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: gluke bastid]
#8286118 - 04/15/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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ah, thanks for pointing it out.
efficient was probably a poor word choice, but i think you got the idea.. i meant the most.. uh.. balanced shall we say? in terms of a balance between liberty and government which infringes on liberty.
and yes i agree, with that little plato paraphrase. and it makes a ton of sense, and says a great deal about the system.
Edited by anyone420 (04/15/08 10:00 AM)
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