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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Seuss]
    #8280991 - 04/14/08 07:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think the debate on Wednesday night will be most interesting. :hehehe:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Seuss]
    #8281055 - 04/14/08 08:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

> the more Obama opens his mouth, the more I am coming to realize Hillary is not the worst of the three candidates left standing

I would never admit it, but you might be correct. Ick, I feel dirty just thinking about hir...





agreed

I used to at least respect obama for being somewhat more upfront about his beliefs, even those I disagreed with. I used to think he was at least somewhat honest, or more so than hillary, about the major positions he touts.

Amongst the issues Hillary supports privately, apparently, like Bill's nafta, deregulation, and free trade, but denounces publically whilst promising the canadians its all for show, I agree with. Dishonest and slimy, but at least I'm with her on what her real position may kinda sorta be.

Obama, on the otherhand, has been a protectionist all along. Guess what obama, you can't fly by pulling on your backside, and you can't generate more money by buying things at an artificially high price. The second law of thermodynamics works for money too.

Obama has been railing against the war, but then voting to fund it, which is either stupidity, spinelessness, or an insult to anyone following the issue (i.e. you're too stupid to understand I'm against the way but have no power to end the war so I'm simply going to not fund it and let the president decide to either starve the troops or withdraw/reduce to levels in line with the budget)....

Been claiming marijuana should be decriminalized, then quickly becoming afraid to stand up for what's right \ what he stood for when he had to step forward in the debates and interviews, cowardly going along w/ the other candidates who voted for continuing jail for marijuana users and possesors. (again, you're too stupid to understand a vote for decriminalization is not a vote for use)

And I hate to admit it, but the whole revrend wright thing really smacks of bullshit too. I doubt Obama supported Wright's statements, I agree w/ zappa here in that I believe his association was a political one that got snagged in the transition from semi-local to national campaigning, but the way he handled it was a little distatsteful and cowardly....


I don't give a shit about the comments re: Pa, and think they're meaningless, but the other things he's been switching around on, evading, and becoming more slimy about really irks me


The cuop de gras was when he decided that in the midst of what may be a continuing rough spot for this country that he would DOUBLE capital gains if he had his way and limit the availibility of mortgages for those whom HE decides can't afford it.


Great, so we're going to slow the investment in this country at a time of rapid growth in the developing nations' markets, along w/ more mainstream funds getting in the game, and tell me I can't get a mortgage cuz the government decided that I don't make enough money for it? I don't have kids, I have no wife, if I want to risk a shitty interest rate, and possible foreclosure, that's my fucking buisness. It's not like I can't grab an apartment. Course hillary's moratorium would be insane, but this insanity isn't enough to overcome Obama's recent b.s.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: johnm214]
    #8281272 - 04/14/08 11:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

what a thread this has been.:grin:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8281343 - 04/14/08 11:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:


So funny to me that when politicos lie and spout pure crap everybody smiles and claps like idiots but if someone tells the truth for a minute everybody freaks out.:monkeydance:




It is, in fact, not truthful.  It is bigoted ignorance.




I been to the south and around this fair country and have seen and experienced it for myself. It's all true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8281348 - 04/14/08 11:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
what a mockery this has been.:grin:




--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Icelander]
    #8281380 - 04/14/08 11:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think its a little sad how southerners and people with a southern accent get picked on by the rest of the country. Its last form of socially acceptable prejudice and discrimination I guess. Racial slurs like hillbilly, redneck and trailer trash wont even raise an eyebrow in the workplace.

Blacks commit more crimes per capita, but its not fair to judge all black people for it (its probably just the racist southern cops fault anyway). Hispanics fight against their host countries borders, language and way of life, but you certainly cant judge all hispanics from this. But southerns, who are prone to bigotry and religious backwardness, do get judged as a whole based on the actions of some. Simply hearing their accent is all most people use to judge them.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: DieCommie]
    #8281414 - 04/14/08 11:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I think its a little sad how southerners and people with a southern accent get picked on by the rest of the country. Its last form of socially acceptable prejudice and discrimination I guess. Racial slurs like hillbilly, redneck and trailer trash wont even raise an eyebrow in the workplace.

Blacks commit more crimes per capita, but its not fair to judge all black people for it (its probably just the racist southern cops fault anyway). Hispanics fight against their host countries borders, language and way of life, but you certainly cant judge all hispanics from this. But southerns, who are prone to bigotry and religious backwardness, do get judged as a whole based on the actions of some. Simply hearing their accent is all most people use to judge them.





The only time I've spent outside of a small town in Pennsylvania, I spent in the South.

I ran across less racism in the South than you'd find up here in urban areas.

But when you're dead-set on seeing something, well by golly you'll see it.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Icelander]
    #8281561 - 04/14/08 12:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:


So funny to me that when politicos lie and spout pure crap everybody smiles and claps like idiots but if someone tells the truth for a minute everybody freaks out.:monkeydance:




It is, in fact, not truthful.  It is bigoted ignorance. 




I been to the south and around this fair country and have seen and experienced it for myself. It's all true.




I have lived in, not been around, small towns(upstate NY), the south(Lexington KY), big(NYC) and medium (Syr and Buffalo and Lex KY) cities and suburbs.  There is no significant difference in overall intelligence.  If you are intelligent, you have a better chance of finding peers in a large city than in a small town because there is a greater pool to choose from.  Stupid definitely floods all of them equally.

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant to the fact that this particular socialist cunt is also a condescending asshole.  There is no taint involved he is asshole and cunt in one.  I had a post some months back where I said he seemed to be a likable guy.  I think he was even ahead then.  Now, I fucking can't stand him.  You know that bitterness thing leading to religion?  It's called projection.  I am not the least bit interested in a bitter man being my President.  Nor a socialist.  He also married a bitter bitch and attended the church of a bitter asshole and if there is going to be a bitter President he damn well isn't going to be a bitter black man who hates well to do white people.  Because THAT, my friends, is diametrically opposed to MY interests.  That goes without mentioning the general disaster a commie is.  His latest San Fran whine is straight out of Marxist "religion is the opiate" screed.  Why do you take opium?  To relieve pain.  That is exactly what he said.

Marxist racist envious turd.  Also, an arch panderer.  Hasn't he himself been railing against free trade?  Why yes, yes he has.  Hasn't he himself embraced religion?  Why yes, yes he has.  What does he say about guns?  Very little but it seems to vary depending on the audience.  Likewise the Iraq situation.  Some days it's everybody out tomorrow, some days it's nothing precipitous.  NAFTA?  Who knows. 

There is nothing Changey about Barry except his skin color.  He is not going to help small towns nor should he.  But neither should he be so condescending to people who choose a different life.

Redstorm, if you cannot put all that stuff together and see that he is racist I'm sorry for you.
1.  Afro centric church with whacko anti-white preacher
2.  "Typical white person"
3.  Wife who just now became proud of her country because    a lot of them will vote black.
4.  This current bullshit about poverty (untrue bullshit anyway) inexorably causing xenophobia.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: DieCommie]
    #8281708 - 04/14/08 12:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I think its a little sad how southerners and people with a southern accent get picked on by the rest of the country. Its last form of socially acceptable prejudice and discrimination I guess. Racial slurs like hillbilly, redneck and trailer trash wont even raise an eyebrow in the workplace.

Blacks commit more crimes per capita, but its not fair to judge all black people for it (its probably just the racist southern cops fault anyway). Hispanics fight against their host countries borders, language and way of life, but you certainly cant judge all hispanics from this. But southerns, who are prone to bigotry and religious backwardness, do get judged as a whole based on the actions of some. Simply hearing their accent is all most people use to judge them.




I didn't just mention the south. It's just extreme down there. Let's get it straight that we all are bigots to some degree and not worry too much about it. My point still stands that most folk fall back on violence and religion when reason fails. This doesn't just happen in America.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8281729 - 04/14/08 12:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:rofl2: Your rant makes me laugh.

I had a post some months back where I said he seemed to be a likable guy. I think he was even ahead then. Now, I fucking can't stand him.

That just shows how you think like the typical american voter. Every new sound bite throws you into a different direction. How silly.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8281746 - 04/14/08 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian, your love for Obama has completely demolished your ability to understand what you are reading. If it were any other candidate saying these things, you'd easily recognize the condescension, the crypto-Marxist sentiment, the naked opportunism that drips from every pore of this empty suit.




No, your obsessive hatred of Obama has prevented you from actually reading his statements; when he opens his mouth, you see only a way to twist his words to make him look bad. You clearly don't try reading his statements and then in good faith interpret and analyze them. What he said was condescending only in the sense that he's discussing political opinions as being a reaction to various things, including demagoguery, cynicism and economic despair. I don't see anything wrong with such an analysis because I understand that our opinions and attitudes are shaped by the atmosphere we live and grow up in. And what exactly is so heinously "crypto-Marxist" about this statement? Is it the idea that one's economic situation influences one's behavior and attitude? Or the idea that the government should do what it can to protect its citizens' financial interests? If that's what communism means nowadays, I think you'll find that America's as red as a Bolshevik- remember how well McCain's "It's your own damn fault your house is being forclosed" idea went over? Of course, nothing tops the pure ridiculousness of the allegation that this is "opportunism". The mind boggles at how a frank, insightful and easily spinned statement is "opportunism"; it's the exact opposite. Opportunism would be uttering platitudes, saying bullshit like "Pennsylvanians aren't bitter; they're hopeful.". Platitudes are opportunism; hard and controversial truths are the exact opposite.

But since you're hellbent on demonizing him and jumping on anything he says that could possibly be damaging, no matter how facetious the interpretation, let's go over what he said.

Quote:

OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...I think they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.




Translation: There's been a lot of speculation as to whether racism is going to play a role in the Pennsylvania primaries. Governor Ed Rendell claimed that Pennsylvania's not ready to vote for a black president. The New York Times ran an article questioning how much my race is going to be a liability. I don't think that explains the challenge I'm facing in Pennsylvania; convincing cynical voters who've been let down time and time again and have had promises to them ignored to vote for a campaign whose message is change is hope is the real challenge.

Quote:



Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).




Same thing, except he makes an aside that being young, having a foreign name, and being black compounds the challenge. Even if you take this as an accusation that Pennsylvanians are racist, he's still downplaying it. And quite frankly, if you don't think that being black is an electoral hurdle in many parts of the US, you're pretty damn naive. But again: he's not whining about how being black is hurting him; he's saying that's just a small part of the challenge.

Quote:


But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What's the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American. So we'll go down a series of talking points.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.




He's saying: I can present talking points about what I'm going to do, but the truth is they've heard it all before. If I want to get their trust, I'm going to have to earn it; I'm going to have to produce results and not just promise half-hearted and vague optimism. Their concerns and their pleas for help have gone unnoticed, and so they cling to areas where they can still excercise influence- social issues like gun control, anti-immigrant sentiment, etc. which the Republican party, who doesn't give a shit about these voters when it comes to demanding real change, are all too happy to encourage this kind of politics for more leverage.

Quote:



Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.




I don't see how this could be any clearer: racial or demographic stereotypes about who's supporting who and why are overly simplistic and not something we should be obsessed with.

If you don't believe me that's what Obama meant, then check out his clarification.

In fact, it sounds a lot like these statements:

"The reason (George H. W. Bush's tactic) works so well now is that you have all these economically insecure white people who are scared to death,"- Hillary Clinton, 1991

"You know, he [Bush] wants to divide us over race. I'm from the South. I understand this. This quota deal they're gonna pull in the next election is the same old scam they've been pulling on us for decade after decade after decade. When their economic policies fail, when the country's coming apart rather than coming together, what do they do? They find the most economically insecure white men and scare the living daylights out of them. They know if they can keep us looking at each other across a racial divide, if I can look at Bobby Rush and think, Bobby wants my job, my promotion, then neither of us can look at George Bush and say, 'What happened to everybody's job? What happened to everybody's income? What ... have ... you ... done ... to ... our ... country?'"(Also Clinton)

Moreover, this is a relatively well-known phenomenon in political science and sociology circles. The most famous book on the subject is What's the Matter With Kansas. Instead of writing them off as stupid hicks like the Democratic establishment and the DLC wing of the party especially, Obama's clearly trying to understand where they're coming from and create common ground: We may disagree on gun control, or gay rights, but we have much more important issues in common.

Quote:



Must be nice. Slice it how you like, but he had a lot easier childhood than most of us. While he was going to private school on his grandparents dime, I was picking up aluminum cans along the side of the road to turn in for lunch money at public school. (literally)

Sorry, but you are not going to win any tears from me for somebody having a hard childhood. I lived a hard childhood and I have known people that had it a lot worse than I did. How many birthday's did Obama miss because his family couldn't afford a birthday cake, never mind birthday presents? My guess would be zero.




So what? You had a tougher childhood than Obama. Congratulations. Clearly, anyone whose family could afford a birthday present is out of touch with America. As is anyone who's lived overseas, in Hawaii, or in black communities, or in San Fransisco.

Quote:


They aren't being used as a scapegoat, rather, tolerance for "freeloaders" is dropping. When the pantry is full, nobody minds sharing. When the pantry is almost empty, people tend to look out for their own first. It isn't that people are blaming the illegal aliens for the economic problems (though they certainly don't help), but that people are a lot less willing to share what little they have left with illegal aliens.




If you think that undocumented immigrants are "freeloaders" then not only are you xenophobic, you're also not doing too well in the thinking department there. Did you know that Mexicans cross the border to live off our generous welfare programs and make gobs of cash from our easy jobs?

Quote:


Which is completely and utterly irrelevant to the fact that this particular socialist cunt is also a condescending asshole. There is no taint involved he is asshole and cunt in one. I had a post some months back where I said he seemed to be a likable guy. I think he was even ahead then. Now, I fucking can't stand him. You know that bitterness thing leading to religion? It's called projection. I am not the least bit interested in a bitter man being my President. Nor a socialist. He also married a bitter bitch and attended the church of a bitter asshole and if there is going to be a bitter President he damn well isn't going to be a bitter black man who hates well to do white people. Because THAT, my friends, is diametrically opposed to MY interests. That goes without mentioning the general disaster a commie is. His latest San Fran whine is straight out of Marxist "religion is the opiate" screed. Why do you take opium? To relieve pain. That is exactly what he said.

Marxist racist envious turd. Also, an arch panderer. Hasn't he himself been railing against free trade? Why yes, yes he has. Hasn't he himself embraced religion? Why yes, yes he has. What does he say about guns? Very little but it seems to vary depending on the audience. Likewise the Iraq situation. Some days it's everybody out tomorrow, some days it's nothing precipitous. NAFTA? Who knows.

There is nothing Changey about Barry except his skin color. He is not going to help small towns nor should he. But neither should he be so condescending to people who choose a different life.




I think you got some spittle on your monitor there.

The fact that he so enrages you, you who thinks that Hoover's response to the Great Depression is apparently a model to follow, who can't be convinced of scientific fact, and who thinks anything to the left of Ron Paul is a diehar communist, really reassures me. If he pisses you off so much, he must be doing something right.


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8281860 - 04/14/08 01:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You know, Robert Reich summed it up better than I could:

Quote:

Obama, Bitterness, Meet the Press, and the Old Politics

I was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania, 61 years ago. My father sold $1.98 cotton blouses to blue-collar women and women whose husbands worked in factories. Years later, I was secretary of labor of the United States, and I tried the best I could – which wasn’t nearly good enough – to help reverse one of the most troublesome trends America has faced: The stagnation of middle-class wages and the expansion of povety. Male hourly wages began to drop in the early 1970s, adjusted for inflation. The average man in his 30s is earning less than his father did thirty years ago. Yet America is far richer. Where did the money go? To the top.

Are Americans who have been left behind frustrated? Of course. And their frustrations, their anger and, yes, sometimes their bitterness, have been used since then -- by demagogues, by nationalists and xenophobes, by radical conservatives, by political nuts and fanatical fruitcakes – to blame immigrants and foreign traders, to blame blacks and the poor, to blame "liberal elites," to blame anyone and anything.

Rather than counter all this, the American media have wallowed in it. Some, like Fox News and talk radio, have given the haters and blamers their very own megaphones. The rest have merely "reported on" it. Instead of focusing on how to get Americans good jobs again; instead of admitting too many of our schools are failing and our kids are falling behind their contemporaries in Europe, Japan, and even China; instead of showing why we need a more progressive tax system to finance better schools and access to health care, and green technologies that might create new manufacturing jobs, our national discussion has been mired in the old politics.

Listen to this morning’s “Meet the Press” if you want an example. Tim Russert, one of the smartest guys on television, interviewed four political consultants – Carville and Matalin, Bob Schrum, and Michael Murphy. Political consultants are paid huge sums to help politicians spin words and avoid real talk. They’re part of the problem. And what do Russert and these four consultants talk about? The potential damage to Barack Obama from saying that lots of people in Pennsylvania are bitter that the economy has left them behind; about HRC’s spin on Obama’s words (he’s an “elitist,” she said); and John McCain’s similarly puerile attack.

Does Russert really believe he’s doing the nation a service for this parade of spin doctors talking about potential spins and the spin-offs from the words Obama used to state what everyone knows is true? Or is Russert merely in the business of selling TV airtime for a network that doesn’t give a hoot about its supposed commitment to the public interest but wants to up its ratings by pandering to the nation’s ongoing desire for gladiator entertainment instead of real talk about real problems.

We’re heading into the worst economic crisis in a half century or more. Many of the Americans who have been getting nowhere for decades are in even deeper trouble. Large numbers of people in Pennsylvania and across the nation are losing their homes and losing their jobs, and the situation is likely to grow worse. Consumers are at the end of their ropes, fuel and food costs are skyrocketing, they can’t go deeper into debt, they can’t pay their bills. They aren’t buying, which means every business from the auto industry to housing to even giant GE is hurting. Which means they’ll begin laying off more people, and as they do, we will experience an even more dangerous downward spiral.

Bitter? You ain’t seen nothing yet. And as much as people like Russert, Carville, Matalin, Schrum, and Murphy want to divert our attention from what’s really happening; as much as HRC and McCain seek to make political hay out of choices of words that can be spun cynically by the mindless spinners of the old politics; as much as demagogues on the right and left continue to try to channel the cumulative frustrations of Americans into a politics of resentment – all these attempts will, I hope, prove futile. Eighty percent of Americans know the nation is on the wrong track. The old politics, and the old media that feeds it, are irrelevant now.




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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8281937 - 04/14/08 01:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on!

I know what's going on in Pennsylvania, I know what's going on in Indiana, I know what's going on in Illinois," Mr. Obama said, his voice rising. "People are fed up, they're angry, they're frustrated, they're bitter and they want to see a change in Washington. That's why I'm running for president of the United States of America."


I admit I've never been to

Pennsylvania


Indiana


Illinois......



must be a lot of BITTER folks in those states.:smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Seuss]
    #8281962 - 04/14/08 01:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:




> the more Obama opens his mouth, the more I am coming to realize Hillary is not the worst of the three candidates left standing

I would never admit it, but you might be correct. Ick, I feel dirty just thinking about hir...








Yup, i would prefer Stalin to Hitler


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8282042 - 04/14/08 02:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

No, your obsessive hatred of Obama...




LOL! I don't hate the man... far from it! I find him to be a fundamentally unserious, manipulating, calculating, pompous, posturing buffoon who in many ways reminds me of John F Kerry -- not least in the way that he (like Kerry) believes himself far more intelligent than he really is. None of those characteristics make him an object of hate, but rather an object of ridicule.

I don't need to hate this schmuck in order to recognize he'd make a catastrophic president and commander in chief, though.

Quote:

...has prevented you from actually reading his statements;




See, here is where we have the standard Libbie practice of inverting reality. I read what the guy actually says. I listen to what he says. I think about what he says. You just let his sonorous platitudes wash over you without absorbing their meaning.

Quote:

...when he opens his mouth, you see only a way to twist his words to make him look bad.




There is no need to twist his words to make him look bad. As a matter of fact, it's pretty near impossible to make them look any worse.

Quote:

You clearly don't try reading his statements and then in good faith interpret and analyze them.




See above re Libbie inversion of reality. Psychologists call this trait of assigning to your opponents what you yourself do "projection".

Quote:

What he said was condescending only in the sense that he's discussing political opinions as being a reaction to various things...




Believing in God is a political opinion? Enjoying hunting is a political opinion?

It is true that Barry nominally "became" a Christian as a strictly political ploy, however. Maybe that's why he misunderstands the roots of faith of the vast majority of religious folks.

By the way, just so there are no misunderstandings here, I myself am a stone atheist, and have been for well over four decades now.

Quote:

...including demagoguery, cynicism and economic despair.




Economic despair? So if the mill had never closed down, these folks would still be color blind atheists who support gun control and open borders policy? Pull my other leg, junior.

Quote:

I don't see anything wrong with such an analysis because I understand that our opinions and attitudes are shaped by the atmosphere we live and grow up in.




Of course you don't see anything wrong with it. You are a Liberal.

Quote:

And what exactly is so heinously "crypto-Marxist" about this statement?




Apart from that religion-as-opiate-of-the-masses thing? How about the casual assumption that these people expect government to provide everything for them? Or the whole "false consciousness" trope of Marxist thought, that one's attitudes are determined by one's economic "class". And of course, the "what's wrong with Kansas" idiocy he's pushing.

Quote:

remember how well McCain's "It's your own damn fault your house is being forclosed" idea went over?




No one is saying McCain hasn't made some stupid remarks during the campaign. As I have said before, the real fly in the ointment of this wonderful spectacle of two Dems beclowning themselves in public is that McCain is the Republican candidate.

This doesn't change the fact that nothing McCain (or Hillary, for that matter) has said up to now comes anywhere close to this debacle.

I won't bother Fisking your spin on his lame and frantic attempts to backpedal. Enough other commentators have done so that I can save myself a ton of keystrokes.

I do, however, find it revealing that you seem to think "What's the Matter with Kansas" somehow qualifies as a serious work. It's no wonder then that you believe Obama has uttered something profound rather than stepping on his dick repeatedly in public -- he was basically (as was noted way back in maybe the second or third post in this thread) regurgitating the thesis of that shoddy screed. That book was such a worthless piece of trash no rational person can take it seriously.




Phred


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Phred]
    #8282234 - 04/14/08 03:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



See, here is where we have the standard Libbie practice of inverting reality. I read what the guy actually says. I listen to what he says. I think about what he says. You just let his sonorous platitudes wash over you without absorbing their meaning.




"Libbie"? Hahahahaha. You clearly did not read what he says, because your "summary" has nothing in common with his remarks. They've already been posted, as has his clarification. Missing the meaning once is bad enough, but now, even when he explains what he meant(and what was already in his original statements) in a clear and concise manner, you still miss the meaning completely. I already summarized the remarks: if you disagree with my interpretation, argue from the source.

Quote:

See above re Libbie inversion of reality. Psychologists call this trait of assigning to your opponents what you yourself do "projection".




Wow; your mastery of psychology amazes me. Please tell me more.

Quote:


Believing in God is a political opinion? Enjoying hunting is a political opinion?




No; supporting certain gun-related laws and opposing others is a political opinion, as is supporting any number of religiously motivated topics(vouchers, evolution, gay rights, etc.).

Quote:


It is true that Barry nominally "became" a Christian as a strictly political ploy, however. Maybe that's why he misunderstands the roots of faith of the vast majority of religious folks.

By the way, just so there are no misunderstandings here, I myself am a stone atheist, and have been for well over four decades now.




I honestly don't give a shit about your personal religion. As to Obama, that charge is ridiculous. For one thing, he's wrote at great length about his religious conversion and if you paid attention to the Democratic Forum on religion, you'd know that if he is faking it, he managed to do it superbly with a great deal of sincerity and thoughtfulness. But of course disproving this charge is virtually impossible, just like it'd be virtually impossible for you to disprove my allegation that you're a pedophile. You've presented no reason to believe he "faked" it other than your paranoia and obsession with applying every negative label known to the English language to him. How many other politicians do you believe are "faking it"? I find it odd that when any other politician joins a church, has photo-ops at the church and uses pastors and religious figures to build a base, they're just expressing their sincere beliefs but when Obama joins a church that's clearly not going to win him any easy votes, sticks by his unfairly-attacked pastor when renouncing him would be the easy thing to do, and writes at length about his personal religious convictions, he's cynically using his religion as a political ploy. McCain sucks up to disgusting bigots like Hagee with whom he has no personal connection and even approaches them for support when he had previously rejected them and their ilk as "agents of intolerance" and nary a peep but when Obama sticks up for his pastor when it would be politically expedient to throw him to the wolves, he's an opportunist.

Quote:


Economic despair? So if the mill had never closed down, these folks would still be color blind atheists who support gun control and open borders policy? Pull my other leg, junior.




This is a blatant strawman. He's not saying they believe in God because of their despair, he's saying that appeals to religious issues take greater prominence because a) they're one of the few subjects with which these voters can find common ground with mainstream politicians and because b) demagoguery works best amongst insecurity and frustration. That's basic psychology. But you already knew that, I'm sure.

Quote:

Of course you don't see anything wrong with it. You are a Liberal.




That's a great comeback AND an intelligent rebuttal!

Quote:



Apart from that religion-as-opiate-of-the-masses thing? How about the casual assumption that these people expect government to provide everything for them? Or the whole "false consciousness" trope of Marxist thought, that one's attitudes are determined by one's economic "class". And of course, the "what's wrong with Kansas" idiocy he's pushing.




None of which he said. He said that religion provided comfort in uncertain times, sure. I don't think that's very revolutionary or radical, nor is it linked to a call for a proletarian revolution. As to the second point: I don't think he assumed that at all. He does assume that people want the government to look out for their interests. Nobody's talking about nationalizing industry and having the government employ them directly: they want the government to do everything in its power to ensure there are jobs available for people willing to work. Those pinko punks! I'm sure the real red-blooded Americans think it's their fault the mills are closed and nobody's hiring. Obviously, they should have willed a prosperous economy into existence. As for the last part: calling it "false consciousness" is silly: he's not attributing the current climate to a class struggle, but rather to frustration and cynicism caused by economic stagnation. If I felt insecure about my future and saw my savings and quality of life dropping constantly, I'd be pissed off and cynical, too. And pissed off voters are easy fodder for demagogues; this has been true throughout history. It has nothing to do with class warfare and everything to do with expecting to be able to get a good day's wage for a good day's work and not seeing the people you've elected working to make that happen. Now I understand there are no easy answers, but recovery and rejuvenation is possible and people should expect their representatives to do everything in their power to make it a reality. If you wanna call that socialism, go ahead. But by that measure, the majority of Americans are socialists.

Quote:



I do, however, find it revealing that you seem to think "What's the Matter with Kansas" somehow qualifies as a serious work. It's no wonder then that you believe Obama has uttered something profound rather than stepping on his dick repeatedly in public -- he was basically (as was noted way back in maybe the second or third post in this thread) regurgitating the thesis of that shoddy screed. That book was such a worthless piece of trash no rational person can take it seriously.




Actually, a great deal of rational people do take it seriously and it enjoys a great deal of prestige amongst pop poli-sci books. But feel free to post a scathing critique by NewsMax or Anne Coulter.


Edited by Yossarian22 (04/14/08 03:28 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Icelander]
    #8282320 - 04/14/08 03:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:rofl2: Your rant makes me laugh.

I had a post some months back where I said he seemed to be a likable guy. I think he was even ahead then. Now, I fucking can't stand him.

That just shows how you think like the typical american voter. Every new sound bite throws you into a different direction. How silly.




Sound bite?  No, I have changed my mind based on his exposure as a racist communist over several months.  The fact that YOU are an acolyte incapable of developing an informed opinion is rather more typical.  You formed your opinion before anybody knew anything about this guy and, dammit, you're sticking to it.  Good on yer, mate, you fucking genius you.

You do realize that reading this speech does not constitute a sound bite.  Or the Wright speeches, or the passages from Barry's book, or the typical white person remark or the general appeal to communist dicta.  None of that constitutes decision by sound bite.  Do you even know what a sound bite is?


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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8282439 - 04/14/08 04:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well I agree w/ you in some respects zappa, of all the shit obama has done to sully his name, this is by far the least relevant for actual logical voting decisions. Please tell me you really don't care that much about him being "bitter"? Who cares, the other stuff matters, the isolationism, the tax increases, the desire to shut down capital in this country, et cet... this bitterness comment is the most irrelevant of any of the things I've mentioned above, prior post.


And Phred, come one man, can we quit w/ the LIberal name calling? I don't really see what this accomplishes other than being a taunt. It seems as anyone who doesn't see the relevance of this quote as to the candidates suitability for office, rather than popular appeal, must be a liberal to you. Come off it.

Maybe some just don't think stupid remarks like this echoing pretty standard stereotypes are a big deal as far as a metric of a candidate? I guess that makes me a liberal, but this liberal isn't voting for hillary or obama, and I guarentee his opinion on religious and gun toting and whatever other people he's slighted has nothing to do with it. For the record I'd think I'm one of the more accepting people as far as what I believe government should toleratee w/ re: to guns and religion.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8282710 - 04/14/08 05:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yossarian22 said:
Quote:

Yossarian, your love for Obama has completely demolished your ability to understand what you are reading. If it were any other candidate saying these things, you'd easily recognize the condescension, the crypto-Marxist sentiment, the naked opportunism that drips from every pore of this empty suit.




No, your obsessive hatred of Obama has prevented you from actually reading his statements; when he opens his mouth, you see only a way to twist his words to make him look bad. You clearly don't try reading his statements and then in good faith interpret and analyze them. What he said was condescending only in the sense that he's discussing political opinions as being a reaction to various things, including demagoguery, cynicism and economic despair. I don't see anything wrong with such an analysis because I understand that our opinions and attitudes are shaped by the atmosphere we live and grow up in. And what exactly is so heinously "crypto-Marxist" about this statement? Is it the idea that one's economic situation influences one's behavior and attitude? Or the idea that the government should do what it can to protect its citizens' financial interests? If that's what communism means nowadays, I think you'll find that America's as red as a Bolshevik- remember how well McCain's "It's your own damn fault your house is being forclosed" idea went over? Of course, nothing tops the pure ridiculousness of the allegation that this is "opportunism". The mind boggles at how a frank, insightful and easily spinned statement is "opportunism"; it's the exact opposite. Opportunism would be uttering platitudes, saying bullshit like "Pennsylvanians aren't bitter; they're hopeful.". Platitudes are opportunism; hard and controversial truths are the exact opposite.




Why does my name appear in the reply to when the quotes are Phred's? Not that I disagree with anything he has said, nor would I presume to speak for him, but I will nonetheless take the opportunity to fisk your incredibly absurd gyroscope of a post. Thus:

Crypto_marxist: I will direct your attention to his direct channeling of the heinous slug Karl Marx's dicta that religion is the opiate of the masses. When times are tough, Obama opines, the aggrieved cleave unto their god for solace. Positively cling to it. This he said. Let us compare it to this:
“Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/opinion/14kristol.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Hmmmm. Hmmm. Why, that's exactly the same sentiment. No honest resort to religion for itself, just a clingyness in times of trouble. Because they're so bitter.
In spite of his own opportunistic remora act on the Rev. Wright's Church of Hate and his assertions of faith he really doesn't care for religious people at all. Which is fine. Just don't lie about it to get their vote.
Quote:





But since you're hellbent on demonizing him and jumping on anything he says that could possibly be damaging, no matter how facetious the interpretation, let's go over what he said.




Accurately quoting the jerk is not demonizing nor is there any "jumping on". If the asshole says something he must be held accountable and it will be commented on
Quote:



Quote:

OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...I think they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.




Translation: There's been a lot of speculation as to whether racism is going to play a role in the Pennsylvania primaries. Governor Ed Rendell claimed that Pennsylvania's not ready to vote for a black president. The New York Times ran an article questioning how much my race is going to be a liability. I don't think that explains the challenge I'm facing in Pennsylvania; convincing cynical voters who've been let down time and time again and have had promises to them ignored to vote for a campaign whose message is change is hope is the real challenge.




I'm going to slice out the offending part of that since you can't seem to find it for yourself:

where people feel most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...I think they're misunderstanding

Nobody other than you is misunderstanding, Barry. They just don't want your commie crap and they don't want your fucking help and they don't want to hear any more bullshit from lying douchebag politicians like yourself telling them that their life sucks and you're going to make it better. It doesn't and you're not
Quote:



Quote:



Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).




Same thing, except he makes an aside that being young, having a foreign name, and being black compounds the challenge. Even if you take this as an accusation that Pennsylvanians are racist, he's still downplaying it. And quite frankly, if you don't think that being black is an electoral hurdle in many parts of the US, you're pretty damn naive. But again: he's not whining about how being black is hurting him; he's saying that's just a small part of the challenge.




"These dumb fucking crackers would sure as shit be more receptive to my message of lifeboat governance by Washington elites if only I wasn't a nigger." Verily I do paraphrase but it is foresooth t3h troof.
Quote:



Quote:


But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What's the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American. So we'll go down a series of talking points.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.




He's saying: I can present talking points about what I'm going to do, but the truth is they've heard it all before. If I want to get their trust, I'm going to have to earn it; I'm going to have to produce results and not just promise half-hearted and vague optimism. Their concerns and their pleas for help have gone unnoticed, and so they cling to areas where they can still excercise influence- social issues like gun control, anti-immigrant sentiment, etc. which the Republican party, who doesn't give a shit about these voters when it comes to demanding real change, are all too happy to encourage this kind of politics for more leverage.



Except they haven't made pleas for the kind of change he wants to bring, shudder. These people want the federal government to just go away as much as possible. They don't want your fucking help, they would just as soon do it themselves, and you and your commie ilk can fuck off forever. Does that make them stoopit? NO. It makes them honorable. Any of them that want that horrorshow can move to DC. Does this Barrydouche think he can make them all rich? He can only make them poorer.
Quote:


Quote:

[


Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.




I don't see how this could be any clearer: racial or demographic stereotypes about who's supporting who and why are overly simplistic and not something we should be obsessed with.

If you don't believe me that's what Obama meant, then check out his clarification.

In fact, it sounds a lot like these statements:

"The reason (George H. W. Bush's tactic) works so well now is that you have all these economically insecure white people who are scared to death,"- Hillary Clinton, 1991

"You know, he [Bush] wants to divide us over race. I'm from the South. I understand this. This quota deal they're gonna pull in the next election is the same old scam they've been pulling on us for decade after decade after decade. When their economic policies fail, when the country's coming apart rather than coming together, what do they do? They find the most economically insecure white men and scare the living daylights out of them. They know if they can keep us looking at each other across a racial divide, if I can look at Bobby Rush and think, Bobby wants my job, my promotion, then neither of us can look at George Bush and say, 'What happened to everybody's job? What happened to everybody's income? What ... have ... you ... done ... to ... our ... country?'"(Also Clinton)

Moreover, this is a relatively well-known phenomenon in political science and sociology circles. The most famous book on the subject is What's the Matter With Kansas. Instead of writing them off as stupid hicks like the Democratic establishment and the DLC wing of the party especially, Obama's clearly trying to understand where they're coming from and create common ground: We may disagree on gun control, or gay rights, but we have much more important issues in common.

Quote:





So the same shit came out of another commie douche's mouth. What a surprise. And Obama actually is writing them off as hicks. IT'S WHAT HE SAID.
Quote:



Must be nice. Slice it how you like, but he had a lot easier childhood than most of us. While he was going to private school on his grandparents dime, I was picking up aluminum cans along the side of the road to turn in for lunch money at public school. (literally)

Sorry, but you are not going to win any tears from me for somebody having a hard childhood. I lived a hard childhood and I have known people that had it a lot worse than I did. How many birthday's did Obama miss because his family couldn't afford a birthday cake, never mind birthday presents? My guess would be zero.




So what? You had a tougher childhood than Obama. Congratulations. Clearly, anyone whose family could afford a birthday present is out of touch with America. As is anyone who's lived overseas, in Hawaii, or in black communities, or in San Fransisco.

Quote:


They aren't being used as a scapegoat, rather, tolerance for "freeloaders" is dropping. When the pantry is full, nobody minds sharing. When the pantry is almost empty, people tend to look out for their own first. It isn't that people are blaming the illegal aliens for the economic problems (though they certainly don't help), but that people are a lot less willing to share what little they have left with illegal aliens.







People are not willing to share anything with illegal aliens, in good or bad. You and the NY Times seem to have an odd inability to comprehend that word. Must be dyslexia.
Quote:



If you think that undocumented immigrants are "freeloaders" then not only are you xenophobic, you're also not doing too well in the thinking department there. Did you know that Mexicans cross the border to live off our generous welfare programs and make gobs of cash from our easy jobs?




Yep, you are dyslexic. You have no comprehension of the English Language. Undocumented does not substitute for Illegal. Undocumented is someone who lost his passport. Illegal is a criminal.
Quote:



Quote:


Which is completely and utterly irrelevant to the fact that this particular socialist cunt is also a condescending asshole. There is no taint involved he is asshole and cunt in one. I had a post some months back where I said he seemed to be a likable guy. I think he was even ahead then. Now, I fucking can't stand him. You know that bitterness thing leading to religion? It's called projection. I am not the least bit interested in a bitter man being my President. Nor a socialist. He also married a bitter bitch and attended the church of a bitter asshole and if there is going to be a bitter President he damn well isn't going to be a bitter black man who hates well to do white people. Because THAT, my friends, is diametrically opposed to MY interests. That goes without mentioning the general disaster a commie is. His latest San Fran whine is straight out of Marxist "religion is the opiate" screed. Why do you take opium? To relieve pain. That is exactly what he said.

Marxist racist envious turd. Also, an arch panderer. Hasn't he himself been railing against free trade? Why yes, yes he has. Hasn't he himself embraced religion? Why yes, yes he has. What does he say about guns? Very little but it seems to vary depending on the audience. Likewise the Iraq situation. Some days it's everybody out tomorrow, some days it's nothing precipitous. NAFTA? Who knows.

There is nothing Changey about Barry except his skin color. He is not going to help small towns nor should he. But neither should he be so condescending to people who choose a different life.




I think you got some spittle on your monitor there.

The fact that he so enrages you, you who thinks that Hoover's response to the Great Depression is apparently a model to follow, who can't be convinced of scientific fact, and who thinks anything to the left of Ron Paul is a diehar communist, really reassures me. If he pisses you off so much, he must be doing something right.







Finally you get to something I wrote. Your response is empty but at least it's something I wrote.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Obama To Rural Pennsylvanians: Vote For Me, You Corncob-Smokin', Banjo-Strokin' Chicken-Chokin' [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8286541 - 04/15/08 01:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

racist communist :rofl2:

Another brilliant post from you where you ass ume that I like obama. My informed opinion about politicians is that they are all pretty much hucksters and they play to dupes.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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* Keyes Says Christ Would Not Vote For Obama DigitalDuality 754 8 09/24/04 01:15 AM
by afoaf
* Deep south Billy Bobs vote Bush in my ass.
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Stein 2,563 41 11/06/04 10:05 PM
by Swami
* Poll: Obama, Hillary Beat GOP in '08 lonestar2004 1,216 4 07/21/07 10:50 PM
by xFrockx
* Interesting (but long) article on electronic voting. luvdemshrooms 750 0 10/15/03 05:44 PM
by luvdemshrooms

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