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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #825710 - 08/18/02 03:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

After following this thread for as long as I have, I still can't help but shake one thing every time I read one of your posts Zahid...and that, my friend, is that part in The Matrix where Morpheous is talking to Neo about the Oracle and is telling him "Try not to think of it in terms of right and wrong. She is a guide to help lead you down the correct path" and then later on when he's all like "She told you exactly what you needed to her - nothing else" ..... I think of these two quotes* when I read your posts because you seem to me like one of those people that refuse to believe you've been told what you need to hear to guid you down the right path...but instead, are so insistant on catagorising everything into the typic 'right' and 'wrong' 'good' and 'evil' categories. You yourself seem so hopelessly reliant on the physical words of these prophets, that you are blinded to the fact that their words were meant as guidance, not laws. (or at least, so it seems to me) I just can't help but think that it's people like you that are giving religions around the world bad reputations. Have you ever once even stopped to question your own beliefs? And if so, did you come up with any answer at all more concrete then "that's what it says, so it must be true" or "it just feels right to me, I can't explain it" or something else along those lines anyways? Cause it seems to me that for someone preaching so robustly about their beliefs, they should have good reason to have those beliefs in the first place.

Do the people of the deen care what opinions the infidels conjure? No. We do exactly what you mentioned, we hear and obey. With guidance comes law. Are you familiar with Shariah? Allah sent the message down, we hear, and we obey. When you begin to open your heart to God, He will quickly guide you to the straight path. This may happen in a period of months or years, but if you believe, Allah will guide you. When you believe, Allah presents to you a complete understanding of the world around you sanctioned to your faith in Allah. We preach, because we know the truth.

But you know, that is just my opinion...and commin from someone that's destined to burn in Hell for eternity (at least by your standards anyways) I'm kind of doubting my opinions will mean all that much in your eyes.

You're correct, It does not mean all that much in my eyes because I see the faults in your kufr belief. May Allah guide you? That is for Allah to decide.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 03:08 PM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825851 - 08/18/02 03:47 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What is it that made/makes you think that Islam is a more valid religion than say....buddhism. This is not flame but a genuine question. I would like to know why you chose your particular faith..what was it that made you think "Yes, this is the way"?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #825856 - 08/18/02 03:50 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I will explain that too.


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Edited by Zahid (08/18/02 03:50 PM)


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OfflineMahakala
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Registered: 08/17/02
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825906 - 08/18/02 04:05 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So one cannot follow Christ, Allah or anyone else unless they have faith? So which is more important to you the message or the vessel that carries it. What use is the cup after you drink the water? Perhaps if we skip the cup alltogether and drink directly from the river.
Often times preaching is a reaction to help save a situation (much like this reply, empty). Faith without understanding is like thinking you can walk on clouds just because you can see them.


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OfflineFlusH
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #825965 - 08/18/02 04:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I totally agree with Traveller
traveller wrote:
so buddha is burning in hell, since he believed that he had seen the truth: that there is NOTHING permanent, that the only truth is constant change, arising and passing away, that there is no way to prove for sure the existence of one supreme god.....
but you know what? if that guy really did reach the mind state he so beautifully spoke about, he could very well be burning in hell with a quiet little smile on his face (although i guess you don't have a face in hell since you've left your body behind, in which case the fires won't be hot, but then isn't the whole thing about the fires of hell - sorry, Jahannum(names are very important) a story meant to scare us into obedience?), perfectly balanced, quietly observing the rising and falling of the flames....
----------------------
Being mennonite I have seen all of the mind washing techniques used to "scare" people into "believing". As a child in sunday school just 8 years old my teachers told the class that if we did not believe in god that we would burn in hell and she proceeded to describe in detail about the horrific things that would happen. She was reading from the church's daily devotional book that instructed to use this type of teaching method because it is the only way for the kids to understand . It is all stories to scare people to conform to a unity and there are much more effective ways of accomplishing this. There are many different way's of reading the bible and the way that makes the most sense to anybody is to interpret it in the way's of our predecessors because that is the way we were taught. One day I sat down with my bible (king james ver.) and 2 grams of b+ strain and a dictionary. as I was reading I was noticing how people in my area have been using the bible as a rule book forgetting that the stories in the bible are just stories that we can learn from example without actually having to experience them. Further threw the book I also came to realize that religion is what you perceive it to be. It is unfair to use scare tactics to try to influence people to believe what you believe. After all I doubt that you have been to hell so is it fair for you to tell someone that they will burn because they are responding to a hypothetical question? If you were trying to prove a point and I have totally missed it I apologize but please respond to this because I am interested in your point of view. ps. you might find www.peterrussell.com an interesting read -- especially "passing thoughts"--


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826323 - 08/18/02 06:20 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

That's exactly the sort of answer I was expecting to hear...you have done nothing but confirmed my belief that you are little more then a brainwashed zombie. Ever hear the poem The Walrus And The Carpenter? It's about a group of clams who blindly walk right into the grasps of a couple of hungry characters, and are then eaten while crocadile tears are being shed for them. If you can't even do so much as explain why you hold the beliefs you do, then you are no better off then those ignorant little clams. All I asked for was an explination, and all I got in return was: "Do the people of the deen care what opinions the infidels conjure?" This explains absolutely nothing on your part, and leaves me to assume that you don't actually have any concrete basis for your belief structure. All you've been doing this entirre thread is play the neener-neener-neener game of 'I'm right and there's nothing you can do to change my mind'

Well, that's great...I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm trying to do is get you to come to grasps as to why exactly you have the beliefs you do. Cause I honestly don't think you're even aware of the WHYs behind em...I think if you were so sure of your beliefs you would have spouted something off right away when Shroomism and I inquired about them. But instead, you insist on taking a few days to get around to it. Why exactly is that? Do you need time to re-evaluate your ideals or what? Or are you just stalling so you can have enough time to find quotes and 'holy scriptures' that justify your zombism? A person that truely believed in something unconditionally wouldn't need to take a few days off to gather their thoughts.

But it's not like any of this really matters anyway...I'm just wasting my breath, aren't I?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Edited by Mystical_Craven (08/18/02 06:23 PM)


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OfflineFlusH
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #826373 - 08/18/02 06:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Amen brother!


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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #826617 - 08/18/02 08:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

A little acerbic but one of your better posts, imo.

Nailed 'im as far as I can see.

good job

cheers,


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife [Re: mirror_saw]
    #826649 - 08/18/02 08:21 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It is actually a way of stressing the same point.

this is the way i understand it as well, but obviously the intellectual "understanding" of these things means very little.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Revelation]
    #826655 - 08/18/02 08:24 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

how would the existence of an afterlife suggest a purpose in this life?


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826670 - 08/18/02 08:35 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The belief of Buddhism is not a reality.

there is no belief of buddhism. the buddha did not say "believe me", he said "do not believe me, try and see for yourself". he said "observe the reality as it is, do not try to change it", he also said "do not believe something because your teacher told you, because it is written in the holy scriptures, because it makes sense, because it agrees with what you already believe..." etc. this is another of the fundamentals of buddhist PRACTICE, as opposed to the "buddhism" followed by most "buddhists" who bow down to statues of the buddha and pray for good luck. the path set out by the buddha is based on NOTHING except PURE EXPERIENCE.

what you are saying is bullshit man, even if it were true do you really think anyone is going to completely change their lives and start believing in ALLAH (a WORD man, just another word...) because YOU (some dude on an internet forum) say so?

i'm not trying to attack you personally or say that your beliefs are wrong - you might have experiences which prove to you the truth of your beliefs - but your message is not new, nor is it helping anyone.


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826673 - 08/18/02 08:36 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

so what if you live a flawless, sinless life but don't believe in ALLAH? do you still go to hell?


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826681 - 08/18/02 08:40 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

ok then! ALLAH the all merciful forgives all AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE, yes? thus those who BELIEVE in allah and go on to slaughter as many people as they can before committing suicide will be forgiven and go to paradise, while those who try to live good lives and do not believe will burn in the fires of hell?


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #826698 - 08/18/02 08:50 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

just in case, one more time, i'll say: whenever i say "buddha said this" or that or whatever please chuck in the words "apparently" or "i've heard that" or something, in the appropriate place, because i wasn't there and didn't hear him say anything so i don't know for sure if it's true and am not pretending to. sometimes i read what i'm writing and think maybe i'm starting to sound like i think i actually know what's going on. oops!


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OfflineFlusH
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Traveller]
    #826721 - 08/18/02 09:05 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Traveller wrote:
ok then! ALLAH the all merciful forgives all AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE, yes? thus those who BELIEVE in allah and go on to slaughter as many people as they can before committing suicide will be forgiven and go to paradise, while those who try to live good lives and do not believe will burn in the fires of hell?
-----------------------------
That is a good point Traveller, consider this: If you had the chance to assassinate Adolph Hitler before he had started his war with the world knowing that you would prevent the killing and tragedy that would be to come; would you go to hell? Even if you assassinated him after the holocaust? You obviously have taken someone's life but did it have a greater cause? hmmm...


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Edited by FlusH (08/18/02 09:07 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: FlusH]
    #826755 - 08/18/02 09:29 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You obviously have taken someone's life but did it have a greater cause? hmmm...

This is why it is clearly stated in the Bible, " 'Vengeance is mine!' sayeth the Lord." Because someone can always find a justifiable reason for taking a life and one leads to the next, each man certain his judgement is in the highest good.

Think on this and get back to me.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFlusH
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Swami]
    #826782 - 08/18/02 09:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Swami wrote:
This is why it is clearly stated in the Bible, " 'Vengeance is mine!' sayeth the Lord." Because someone can always find a justifiable reason for taking a life and one leads to the next, each man certain his judgement is in the highest good.
----------------------------------
Very interesting, I am heading to bed now but I will definitely be chewing on this! Here is one for you. What if that person was willing to be cast into hell ( accepted his fate ) by assassinating Hitler knowing what was going to happen/after it happened?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: Zahid]
    #826882 - 08/18/02 11:09 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Zahid, you will burn in hell for all eternity because you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. You have heard of him? I'm afraid you can't plead ignorance my friend. Yup, it's straight to the ninth level of hell for you where maggots will feast on your flesh and burning sulfur will rain down on you and all your non-believing Muslim friends... The message is clear, yet you have chosen to follow a degenerate false god. You have rejected His message and His messangers (me! ) and so you will burn for all eternity.

hehe, now you know how it feels.

Please spare us this religious contempt in the future.




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Anonymous

Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #826884 - 08/18/02 11:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

hehe


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: If they found definitive proof of an afterlife.... [Re: ]
    #827485 - 08/19/02 08:21 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, you're right Mr_Mushrooms I was acting too much off of emotions in that last one. What can I say, I'm not without ego...I'll admit it. It just irked me that I would be blown off so nonchalantly, while Revelation's nearly identical question was taken into consideration. I'm thinking now that's probably due to the fact that I wasn't clear enough in my wording. I never really have been all that much of a linguist though (which I think should be fairly obvious by now) so if that is the case, then I'd certainly understand why Zihad might not have even picked up on what I was trying to say. Maybe I should have given myself a bit of time too cool off before responding, but I suppose it's too late for that now. I guess I have no choice but to sit back and wait for a response (assuming of course that I actually get one)

Revelation - I appreciate you're rephrasing my questioning in a more coherant manner (regardless if this was done intentionally or simply because you too were pondering the same thing...the important thing is the question got across one way or another)

and Zihad - I appologize for the 'tonality' (if there is a such a thing in written communication) of my last post. I know it must seem like a personal attack...but try to understand I'm not trying to bash your beliefs, I just want to know why you hold those beliefs as firmly as you do.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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