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Offlinecamplo
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Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing?
    #8265336 - 04/10/08 07:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If you do you can kiss my ass... just kidding

Okie dokie here goes the noob with his theories.

i dont like this whole soak and simmer thing only because the simmering is sooooo subjective with its constant variables of time, heat, water in pan etc etc. I like the idea of adding a specific amount of water to a jar and pcing BUT for me ,atleast, my grain needs that presoak sooooo this is my idea.

I'm aiming for 40% saturation in the final rye jar. I would add a specific amountof water to grain so if it was hypothetically 100grams of grain, aim to add ~ 45-50 ml of water to the grain during the first pcing then let that soak for 24 hours and then repc the jar and walla. I know that you loose about... 1 ml of water content per pc session of 90 minutes so what ya think about that!

post comments below....
camp


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8265354 - 04/10/08 07:34 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

sounds like you're making it harder than it should be.


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8265377 - 04/10/08 07:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well for one you could knock down pc times to just 1 hour each and ummm I'll the extra mile to get a more consistent result not too mention the extra sterility...


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Invisibleim_on_a_boat
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8265388 - 04/10/08 07:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

why dont you soak 24 hours, simmer a little, and then pc ONE TIME like everyone else does?

well at least that's what i do.

i like to rinse them between each step and let them dry on some paper towels on top of dish towels for a couple hours before i load them in the jars.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: im_on_a_boat]
    #8265433 - 04/10/08 07:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Tyndallisation is fractional boiling under no pressure. That is, at 100ºC. It has to be done because 100ºC cannot kill all endospores.

If you are using a PC, temperatures increase to 125ºC which is high enough to kill off endospores with one single boil.

Fractional boiling is a waste of time because it has a high failure rate.

Fractional pressure cooking is not only pointless because it is unnecessary but also a waste of time and energy.


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Nibin]
    #8265459 - 04/10/08 07:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You guys dont get it do ya =(

Some people dont like to simmer there grains you cant always get the exact same amount of moisture at best its "close enough" to whatever had in mind. I know this cause I've read plenty of threads regarding moisture content of grains and how much water (in ml) they preffer to add to said amount of grains in grams.
This would provide completely repeatable results to a T.

No reason to argue. Im sure I'm not the only one who has thought of this or to practice it. Just thought I'd bring it to light to see what people think of it.Mainly to see if anyone would say anything about the soak in the jars regarding endospores germinating. If you dont mind pcing twice then this would be a nice ALTERNATIVE to the plain ol soak and simmer with some specific benefits. Right?


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Edited by camplo (04/10/08 08:00 PM)


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8265520 - 04/10/08 08:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ever read RRs Rye tek? No simmering involved (except to heat the grains so they dry out quicker.

RRs Rye tek

Quote:

My rye tek. I haven't posted this here in awhile.

Measure out your organic rye berries from a health food store, 1 cup for each quart jar you intend to make. Place them in a large pot. Rinse the heck out of them. Fill the pot with hot tap water, shake and swirl it around and pour it out. Do this three or four times until the water you pour out is clear. You'll be able to see when you have nice clean water to pour off instead of water filled with chaff and dirt. You want to now cover the rye berries with three times as much water as you have rye. Use half coffee(or less) and half plain water. In other words, if you have two inches of rye in the bottom of your pan, you should have six inches of water/coffee above that, for a total of 8 inches. Add one tablespoon of gypsum to the water and stir well. Leave this to sit for 12 to 24 hours.

After the soak, add water to nearly fill the kettle up, but leave room at the top for it to boil. Stir well and set the pot on the stove. Bring to a boil. Boil for ten minutes, then, WHILE BOILING, drain the contents through a very large colander. (spaghetti strainer) If you're making a large batch, you may need more than one colander. Tip the colander side to side to get the rye to drain as much of the water as you can. Then, shake the colander in order to 'toss' the grain. This will cause a lot of steam to rise from your rye. Do this a time or two, then let it sit for five minutes, then repeat. When all the moisture that will drip or evaporate from your rye has already done so, load your jars. The rye should look and feel dry to the touch when you load the jars. All the moisture you need is inside the grain. Fill jars no more than 2/3 full if they are to receive grain to grain transfers, or no more than 3/4 full if they are to be inoculated by spore syringe. Use a lid with a synthetic filter disk, polyfill, tyvek or similar. Cover with foil and PC the jars for at least 90 minutes at 15lbs. When the jars are cool, they're ready to inoculate.





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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Nibin]
    #8265908 - 04/10/08 09:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Right but even then there are details left out. Bring water to a boil.... how fast? 2/3rds heat? highest setting? What kind of boil? little small bubble boil? Full big bubble boil???


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8265919 - 04/10/08 09:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It doesn't matter. The boil is just to heat the grains up so they dry quicker in the colander. The water absorption has happened during the soak.

But if you don't boil the grain it won't dry out fully and tend to be over wet.


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Nibin]
    #8266082 - 04/10/08 09:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ok I gotcha! Thank you for being patient with this noob. We noobs need the patients sometimes.

So you still hating on my fractional pc huh?

Ok I tried the RR tek one time and I doubt I did it to perfection BUT I dont think I brought it to an astounding boil as to cause all loose water to evaporate. I tossed and rolled in the colander and to pass time picked out bursted grains (yes i know I didn't have to. I noticed RR saying his grains looked dry and where dry to touch. So since I didnt get them hot enough it took a little bit longer to get "dry". I waited till 50% of the grains looked that grey dry that they look and then pced. But then I had covered my FAE holes with tyvek AND micropore tape and was not happy with how the adhesive melted so I opened the jar made the FAE holes so that only TYVEK was over them with the tape around the sides to hold tyvek. Simmered grains again and then pcd.... This is my first grow ever so dont laugh too hard please =/


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8266134 - 04/10/08 09:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Actually since someone with some know is paying attention. I thought this might be a good thing to try since I will be doing 6 cups in a gallon jar sooner or latter. I was thinking do the grains seperatly at first in quart jars then add the mass together in one 1 gallon jar and then pc again the next day, then inoculate with 60cc of grain lc. 60 cc should be enough? 120? who knows....


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8266217 - 04/10/08 10:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Don't forget to test that LC before of you will hate yourself for loosing a gallon of grain to a contaminated LC.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Nibin]
    #8266283 - 04/10/08 10:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think you should just do it the conventional way man. You will probibly loose 50% of your grains to contams (though some lucky people loose none). I did this once and it wasn't half bad. You could test your LC first but likely you don't have time. So I'd just aim for a smaller setup to begin with. If you are going to do this I will warn you Do not G2G. it is just a bad idea.

Edit: As for people complaining about the moisture this is probibly because they are not shaking the steam out this is the main way to get the water content proper. I find when the water content is proper you can touch them and they will dry quick and not stick to your hand. This method seems to work for WBS too. In fact I've treated WBS identical to RR's advice for grains (with the exception of removing the floaters first) and gotten great results. So just listen to the tech and just look around for a cheep PC while your at it. A pc is probibly the most expensive apparatus of Mush Cultivation and the most useful.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Edited by ScavengerType (04/10/08 10:27 PM)


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8266350 - 04/10/08 10:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

He already has a PC


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InvisibledrftNV
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8266368 - 04/10/08 10:33 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i soak for 24 hours, rinse, bring to a slow simmer in a heavy pot then kill the gas and let it sit covered for ~30 mins, drain and rinse with how water from the kettle, drain and let sit untill the grain loses its 'wet' look, then load into jars and pc for ~1hr.
I use 100% sorghum because basically thats all i can get here. My jars have two nail holes, one covered in silicone and the other with micropore tape. i cover with foil for pc'ing.
the overall idea for me is to slowly hydrate the grains. if i try to rapidly hydrate, i get lots of burst kernels too early in the process, making a mess. doing it this way i've found that when the jars have cooled, there will a large percentage of burst kernels, but only after pc'ing. i like that because the mycellium seem to colonise it faster, especially if inoculated with lc.
never had a jar contam when prepared this way, or a moisture content issue.


Edited by drftNV (04/10/08 11:08 PM)


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: drftNV]
    #8266390 - 04/10/08 10:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

sorry I'd seen him post before about fractal sterilization so I presumed this was what he meant. I don't understand why he'd be wondering with this. Remember camplo everyone who doesn't have a problem with the normal grain spawn sterilization doesn't mention it on the forums.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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InvisibledrftNV
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8266612 - 04/10/08 11:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

sorry scav i meant to reply to camplo but just bashed reply at the end of the thread instead...
i agree with you, conventional method is tried and tested. i dont think my proceedure differs greatly from it, and sometimes just explaining things differently can help.


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: drftNV]
    #8295892 - 04/17/08 01:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Umm incase i didnt make it clear. I AM having problems with green mold.

I think I might be due to not hitting 250F.

or the warm water bath incubator.

or tyvek getting wet.

Or not keeping needle clean during multispore inject.


I will get rid of water bath and aim for higher temps with pc and keep needle red hot while poking pvt. Damn now Im like wont the red hot kill spores going through needle. OMFG OMFG OMFG where did I go wrong...


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OfflineYossarian22
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8296033 - 04/17/08 02:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It's not the PC that's causing your problem- mold spores are killed at normal boiling temperatures; it's bacterial endospores that need a PC to die. Make sure you PC them for long enough(90 minutes AFTER the PC has hit 15 psi, which is to say when the rocker starts a-rockin'). Where does the green mold grow? If it's at the top, it probably happened when you were inoculating. If it's where the liquid from the spore syringe landed(ie, the sides of the jar where you squirted it), it could be an infected syringe(where did you get your spores?).

Here are some tips:
a) Mark the Tyvek so you know where the hole is(if you have to jab a few times before you get it in, you're asking for contamination). Or just get rid of the Tyvek altogether and just use micropore tape(sold as "gentle paper tape" in pharmacies)
b) Make sure to spray the living shit out of the room where you're inoculating with Oust or something with a high alcohol content. Or better yet, construct a glovebox and inoculate inside.
c) swab the area where you're going to inject with 70% alcohol(works better than any other concentration). Wipe some 70% alcohol on the sticky side of a piece of micropore tape and have ready(maybe attach it by the very tip to a counter or something). Use an alcohol lamp(or just pour some rubbing alcohol into an upside-down cup or something, then light it) until the needle's red hot. Inject where you've already swabbed with alcohol, then place tape over where you just injected the spores as quickly as possible.

Best of luck; half the hobby is figuring out what works for you in your environment.

Edit: Also, if you're not sure whether or not your PC is reaching the right temperatures, try putting a drop of water onto the PC. If it evaporates on contact, it's working.


Edited by Yossarian22 (04/17/08 02:41 PM)


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Yossarian22]
    #8296253 - 04/17/08 03:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Alrighty then. I agree with the you on the upmost when you said figuring out what works in your environment.

I'm not sure in what ways a syringe can get contaminated but I am almost certain mine was. I got it from Darkspores and on my first inoculation I twisted the damn needle clean off the syringe. But someone said no that wont do it =/.

my lid set up is this. Four 1/16inch holes in small group. Dime sized piece of tyvek with micropore tape around the sides of the tape to hold the tyvek in place and a pvt silicon port.

side note: Umm I thought micropore tape was not 'good enough" to cover holes?

I thought the whole idea of the PVT Port was to free one from using a flow hood, glove box, or any concerns about the immediate air enviroment.

ps Im almost certain theres 2 or 3 green something rather contam that is listed under bacteria in the TMC. And one I suspect it to be is one that requires the high temp of a PC to eradicate it. Dont have th TMC handy therefore cant give you text at the moment =/


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Edited by camplo (04/17/08 03:46 PM)


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8296935 - 04/17/08 06:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Micropore tape is fine, RR uses it instead of the dry verm barrier in PF cake jars.

Also, make sure you vent your PC or the temperature will never get up to 125ºC


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Invisibleshaggydogman
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Nibin]
    #8297024 - 04/17/08 06:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well I gotta say, I get the arse with soaking, simmering, tossing, draining, drying, loading and cleaning up the kitchen as well. So I was most happy to see a write up by Fahtster of the method used by Paul Stamets in The Mushroom Cultivator. It is so bloody easy in comparison.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7718009#7718009

The grain comes out a little uneven in it's moisture content, but after a shake and a day to rest this soon sorts itself out.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The uneven moisture content of the grains isn't really a problem. After shaking, they'll be distributed with wet and dry grains next to each other, so the moisture will even out over a few days. A pinch of gypsum in each jar is always a good idea.
RR




Childs play!!! Try it, you'll love it!


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Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at short notice subject to but not limited by new information and knowledge being made available.


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Invisiblemb13
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: camplo]
    #8297039 - 04/17/08 06:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I dont simmmer my millet or my wbs. I simply rinse the grain until water is clear. Drain, then add the hot water straight from the tap and gypsum.. let soak for 24 hours. Next day I rinse a few times, load, pc. Perfect.
Zero contams on jars and I've done a few.


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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: mb13]
    #8297134 - 04/17/08 07:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mb13 said:
I dont simmmer my millet or my wbs. I simply rinse the grain until water is clear. Drain, then add the hot water straight from the tap and gypsum.. let soak for 24 hours. Next day I rinse a few times, load, pc. Perfect.
Zero contams on jars and I've done a few.




Only 24 hrs for bird seed ??


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Invisiblemb13
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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: Blutjager]
    #8297139 - 04/17/08 07:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That's correct.

Sometimes It'll go 30 or so but 24 hours and it's usually ready. Do your seed hydration test (sht) and get to work. :thumbup:


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Re: Anyone got a prob with fractional pcing? [Re: mb13]
    #8298508 - 04/17/08 11:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I've done as above on WBS and it worked great for me. some of the guides here recommend only 6-12 hours as after that the WBS starts to ferment and then smells a little raunchy when you PC. Though conveniently enough the guide did not mention the smell.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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