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OfflineEpigallo
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 22 days
Government as a necessary evil.
    #8261799 - 04/09/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This thread is about zest for life,
compassion...
harmony...
unity.

Fuck the government!! :rockman:


Why is it so exhilirating to see someone fight a global power?

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8261851 - 04/09/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I dont know. I dont find it exhilarating. Fighting for freedom or equal rights is exhilarating though.

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Invisibleappleorange
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: DieCommie]
    #8262366 - 04/09/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I hate politics and government.

I only care about flowers.

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: appleorange]
    #8262383 - 04/09/08 10:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I hate politics and government.

I only care about flowers.




:psycrankey:

Check your PM's oliveorange.

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Offlinekrin
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8262469 - 04/09/08 11:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I respect my governor!
Every day I make a duty of throwing some money, just tossing it, as if I were throwing it away...

Look at the upright governors on your money-bills, when I examine those faces Im always vexed, to think what that man is REALLY thinking.
I find thier gazes to stir this up.

da evul psychik powa be flowin tru dat paypas there mon


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8264616 - 04/10/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
This thread is about zest for life,
compassion...
harmony...
unity.

Fuck the government!! :rockman:


Why is it so exhilirating to see someone fight a global power?




You live at the govt's whim. Don't forget. Same with everyone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8265416 - 04/10/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You live at the govt's whim. Don't forget. Same with everyone.




And...so what?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: appleorange]
    #8267642 - 04/11/08 01:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I hate politics and government.

I only care about flowers.





fuck yeah!

have you ever seen a double rainbow?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8268514 - 04/11/08 08:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

You live at the govt's whim. Don't forget. Same with everyone.




And...so what?




So what? I thought my point would have been obvious. You can't free live a free life and reject society/govt. Not unless you were willing to go naked into the wild and then run and hide out there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineEpigallo
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Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268583 - 04/11/08 09:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

hence the term, 'necessary evil'

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Offlineeve69
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: krin]
    #8268627 - 04/11/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krin said:
I respect my governor!
Every day I make a duty of throwing some money, just tossing it, as if I were throwing it away...

Look at the upright governors on your money-bills, when I examine those faces Im always vexed, to think what that man is REALLY thinking.
I find thier gazes to stir this up.

da evul psychik powa be flowin tru dat paypas there mon




That's basically it. One common exchange under God. It sort of mocks humanity to put the paper first. But government also does this. So government has one other than God first, so the paper is a mockery of the Divine.


--------------------
...or something






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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268675 - 04/11/08 09:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You can't free live a free life and reject society/govt. Not unless you were willing to go naked into the wild and then run and hide out there.




Well I guess that depends on how you define freedom. But I do see what you're getting at.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8268714 - 04/11/08 09:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To me freedom would be setting your own rules and being able to apply them without interference. And I know that ain't gonna happen.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268746 - 04/11/08 10:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Everyone loves and underdog.

"One does not form a dictatorship to safeguard a revolution, one instigates a revolution to install the dictatorship." -1984


--------------------

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268761 - 04/11/08 10:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
To me freedom would be setting your own rules and being able to apply them without interference. And I know that ain't gonna happen.




To me that is not yet freedom. That would just be a state of affairs where there is little to hinder the expression of your will.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8268767 - 04/11/08 10:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, what's freedom?


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8268772 - 04/11/08 10:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

oh I agree, i don't really believe freedom exists. We are bound by our human nature, the physical constraints of our environment and many other things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268826 - 04/11/08 10:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps freedom is relative. If we look at the constraints we all have in common, and then compare the constraints we impose upon ourselves, we might see a continuum of more-free to less-free conditions.

IMO, freedom exists (or does not) between our ears, and outer constraints are irrelevant.

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268875 - 04/11/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
oh I agree, i don't really believe freedom exists. We are bound by our human nature, the physical constraints of our environment and many other things.




Yes, that's why the term freedom is only meaningful when we apply it to a specific thing... freedom from this or freedom from that.

Freedom from every influence or force is impossible and I don't think anybody is really looking for that.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8268893 - 04/11/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Freedom from every influence or force is impossible and I don't think anybody is really looking for that.

Maybe it's because you're young. There is a time when some (me) want only that. Being in material existence is too restrictive now. I'm not going to off myself today but when the time comes I think it will be a relief.

"any day now, any way now, I shall be released"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8268907 - 04/11/08 11:15 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just presh zee button. If zee button gives you no result, move onto the patch bay.


--------------------

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8269411 - 04/11/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Freedom from every influence or force is impossible and I don't think anybody is really looking for that.

Maybe it's because you're young. There is a time when some (me) want only that. Being in material existence is too restrictive now. I'm not going to off myself today but when the time comes I think it will be a relief.

"any day now, any way now, I shall be released"




I am not only talking about material influences.  Every person is part of a greater whole from which they are inseparable.  You can't be 'free' of that reality IMHO, though you may be free from any anguish associated with existence.  But that, again, is a specific thing.

In other words, what is, is, and there is no escape from that.  Death might appear to be such an escape, but that's just a guess.  Maybe it won't give you the relief you seek.

I just meant the english word 'freedom' has no meaning if it is not referring to a specific property whose influence you wish to escape. 

Besides, I'm not young, I'm almost 30 :smirk:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8269532 - 04/11/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm almost 30

That's really young.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8269549 - 04/11/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

That was a joke... I didn't think I would have to say so

:monkeydance:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8271361 - 04/11/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

how old am I?

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Invisibleappleorange
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8271391 - 04/11/08 08:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
how old am I?




I'm 27

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: appleorange]
    #8271456 - 04/11/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well, that's not really how you play the guessing game.

But, I'm 24.

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Offlinefigmentfragment
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8276635 - 04/13/08 04:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Fuck the government?

I could agree with this statement...yet the thing is, the really annoying self defeating fact is...that while we may go around, declaring this and that about the government, I have yet to see many people with actual alternative solutions...
I can't talk. Politics is hardly one of my strong points...

Let us say, hypothetically that the government is "fucked". Then what? What do you envisage for the future?


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8276843 - 04/13/08 08:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My original post was meant to emulate a gung-ho rebellious attitude towards government, such as what a "bad ass" rock band might say before a song.

What if gritty people always yelled "fuck yeah for government!"? It wouldn't make sense, because the government always keeps a sterile image and its people don't publicly declare "fuck yeah!". Because its essentially a powerful, yet inhuman force. Not to say that we can do away with it or "kill" the government, but that we probaby shouldn't align ourselves with governmental forces. I think it will manifest on its own.

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Offlinefigmentfragment
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8276906 - 04/13/08 08:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes. I can appreciate your sentiment. And please also note that I didn't actually disagree with what you had stated.

But I also noticed that you had no answer to my question, which in truth was not just aimed at you...

Does anyone have any ideas?

"anarchism as a whole advanced what Isaiah Berlin has called 'negative freedom,' that is to say, a formal 'freedom from,' rather than a substantive 'freedom to.' "


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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OfflineBoots
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8281273 - 04/14/08 09:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Read Hobbes or Locke. I agree for the most part on what they had to say about Government.

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8281604 - 04/14/08 10:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Let us say, hypothetically that the government is "fucked". Then what? What do you envisage for the future?




Then we work to un-fuck it. That's obviously a very complex and involved task, but it's the only viable solution.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8281665 - 04/14/08 10:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think there is a much more viable solution.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8281987 - 04/14/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

figmentfragment said: Let us say, hypothetically that the government is "fucked". Then what? What do you envisage for the future?




If you could be either God's worst enemy or nothing, which would you choose? We're the middle children of history, we have no special purpose or place, and unless we get God's attention, we have no hope of damnation or redemption. Which is worse, hell or nothing? Burn the museums, wipe your ass with the Mona Lisa. This way, at least God will know your name.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282046 - 04/14/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think there is a much more viable solution.




I'm all ears.


...or eyes as the case may be.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8282052 - 04/14/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Icelander said:
'I think there is a much more viable solution.'

Ready yourself for something radical.:tongue:


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8282057 - 04/14/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The govt/culture has been what it is and will continue until the end of mankind IMO. There is plenty of evidence of this if you do some research and check your history.

Work to change things in yourself and you will have a worthwhile project as long as you don't expect miracles.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282073 - 04/14/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

'...as long as you don't expect miracles.'

What a downer. Expect wonders and you will realize them. Lock the door and you'll never get in.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8282079 - 04/14/08 12:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I said miracles not wonders (can you not read?) and you don't know wtf you are talking about, it's just more babble. Your response had nothing to do with my comment.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (04/14/08 12:34 PM)

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282100 - 04/14/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The govt/culture has been what it is and will continue until the end of mankind IMO. There is plenty of evidence of this if you do some research and check your history.

Work to change things in yourself and you will have a worthwhile project as long as you don't expect miracles.




Working to change things in yourself is crucial. But you are inseparable from society and mankind as a whole. If you truly work to transform yourself, then you will inevitably work to transform the world.

These lines between inner and outer are problematic.

To put this another way: our world is burning, moreso now that in nearly any other time in history. We are not islands. We are all responsible for our world, so to isolate yourself and then to say that working to transform only this isolated self is worthwhile is to miss the mark. The world has changed many, many, many times in history, and will continue to do so.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8282107 - 04/14/08 12:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't see any "real" changes in the world. Humans, emotionally have not changed from the dawn of history IMO. I care not if it burns. That is nothing to a citizen of the Tao.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282108 - 04/14/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

won·der  (wndr)
n.
1.
a. One that arouses awe, astonishment, surprise, or admiration; a marvel: "The decision of one age or country is a wonder to another" John Stuart Mill.
b. The emotion aroused by something awe-inspiring, astounding, or marvelous: gazed with wonder at the northern lights.
2. An event inexplicable by the laws of nature; a miracle.
3. A feeling of puzzlement or doubt.
4. often Wonder A monumental human creation regarded with awe, especially one of seven monuments of the ancient world that appeared on various lists of late antiquity.
v. won·dered, won·der·ing, won·ders
v.intr.
1.
a. To have a feeling of awe or admiration; marvel: "She wondered at all the things civilization can teach a woman to endure" Frances Newman.
b. To have a feeling of surprise.
2. To be filled with curiosity or doubt.
v.tr.
To feel curiosity or be in doubt about: wondered what happened.
adj.
1.
a. Arousing awe or admiration.
b. Wonderful.
2. Far superior to anything formerly recognized or foreseen.
Idiom:
for a wonder
As a cause for surprise; surprisingly.
[Middle English, from Old English wundor.]
wonder·er n.
Synonyms: wonder, marvel, miracle, phenomenon, prodigy, sensation
These nouns denote one that evokes amazement or admiration: saw the wonders of Paris; a marvel of modern technology; a miracle of culinary art; a phenomenon of medical science; a musical prodigy; the theatrical sensation of the season.

Ice: 'There is plenty of evidence of this if you do some research and check your history.'

Ice: 'you don't know wtf you are talking about'


Right.:lol:


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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8282120 - 04/14/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


Miracle:
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.




Not really the same as "wonder."  :shrug:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8282121 - 04/14/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

BFD. A miracle is something that is impossible. Just because you believe in faeries doesn't make them real. My quote stands and also my response to you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282162 - 04/14/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't see any "real" changes in the world. Humans, emotionally have not changed from the dawn of history IMO. I care not if it burns. That is nothing to a citizen of the Tao.




Whether or not you do or don't see any real changes in the world is not so important.

A true citizen of the Tao realizes their inter-connection with everything. They see that they are inseparable from everything else. They see their intimate part in the web of life. When the world is burning, they too are burning. It's one thing to not be attached to this burning. But if you don't care that the world is burning, then you are not a true citizen of the Tao.

That's a heavy claim, but I mean it with all sincerity. What is the Tao if not the wisdom to see our inter-connection and our non-duality and the compassion to work for the benefit and well-being of everyone?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8282166 - 04/14/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Wrong, All things come and go in Ultimate Tao, the sage holds to nothing at all. You do not understand the Tao IMO. You are a politico and have attachments to this and that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
    #8282189 - 04/14/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A miracle, derived from the old Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful"...

-wiki

Yah. I see. Very different.

'A miracle is something that is impossible.'

In Spinoza's Theologico-Political Treatise he talks about miracles as those events of whose causes we are ignorant. Nor does he suggest we should just treat them as having no cause or of having an cause immediately available. Rather the miracle is for combating the ignorance it entails, it becomes a political project.

-wiki


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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8282197 - 04/14/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so anything that anyone calls a miracle is just something we don't know about:lol: This belongs in that other forum.

My post taken in context of what I was saying should have never even warranted this discussion.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282214 - 04/14/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

'so anything that anyone calls a miracle is just something we don't know about...'

Yet.  Learn it, Richard.

Be it solely an illusion of mind or a latent function of the universe.

Miracles happen.  To seek out an explanation is Do.  Oh but you know that because you are master of the Tao.:rolleyes:


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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282284 - 04/14/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't see any "real" changes in the world. Humans, emotionally have not changed from the dawn of history IMO.





Nice! :super: Do you act as a consultant to any of these people?

Notable human evolution researchers

James Burnett, Lord Monboddo, a British judge most famous today as a founder of modern comparative historical linguistics
Charles Darwin, a British naturalist who documented considerable evidence that species originate through evolutionary change
Richard Dawkins, a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist who has promoted a gene-centered view of evolution
J. B. S. Haldane, a British geneticist and evolutionary biologist
William D. Hamilton, a British Evolutionary Biologist who expounded a rigorous genetic basis for kin selection, and on the evolution of HIV and other human diseases.
Sir Alister Hardy, a British zoologist, who first hypothesised the aquatic ape theory of human evolution
Henry McHenry, an American anthropologist who specializes in studies of human evolution, the origins of bipedality, and paleoanthropology
Louis Leakey, an African archaeologist and naturalist whose work was important in establishing human evolutionary development in Africa
Richard Leakey, an African paleontologist and archaeologist, son of Louis Leakey
Svante Pääbo, a Swedish biologist specializing in evolutionary genetics
Jeffrey H. Schwartz, an American physical anthropologist and professor of biological anthropology
Erik Trinkaus, a prominent American paleoanthropologist and expert on Neanderthal biology and human evolution
Milford H. Wolpoff, an American paleoanthropologist who is the leading proponent of the multiregional evolution hypothesis

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282292 - 04/14/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Wrong, All things come and go in Ultimate Tao, the sage holds to nothing at all. You do not understand the Tao IMO. You are a politico and have attachments to this and that.




It's certainly true that nothing lasts. Not holding or clinging to anything DOES NOT mean that you just sit there and stare blankly at the world as it burns. Not clinging does not imply a fatalistic passivity.

Now then, you chose to judge me and make use of ad hominems. How about you actually respond to what I said? I was talking about inter-dependence and inter-connectedness, and how it is crucial to realize them - to make them real - in our daily lives and in our world.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinefigmentfragment
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282665 - 04/14/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am surprised that I got any sort of answer to this question, which I will stress again, is completely hypothetical.

But what I am really curious about, is the actual ideas of how things should/could work.

Are we talking about, alternative types of government, yet with similar systems we observe today, something vastly different? NO government even?

what do you think? Because I rarely hear any talk of what people want, just what they don't want.

I myself, don't really know, and I find that fact to be disconcerting to say the least. So I seek the opinions of others to test the waters.


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: dblaney]
    #8282694 - 04/14/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Working to change things in yourself is crucial. But you are inseparable from society and mankind as a whole. If you truly work to transform yourself, then you will inevitably work to transform the world.

These lines between inner and outer are problematic.






The way I see it, the clear intentions of our founding fathers were to recognize this. Maybe if the population stopped taking unthinking pride in liberty and freedom, and learned to just understand these concepts, our politics could be rationally reflect these ideals. From my understanding the basic original intention was to create a government that serves the each individual, thereby and only thereby serving the whole. Each individual has rights, which protect his aesthetic freedom.

With this freedom comes personal responsibility. A person is not protected by the government from say the addictions of drugs or gambling, but he has full freedom to indulge in these activities if he wants to, as long as he does not hurt anyone else. The government has no authority concerning the intrinsic well being of the individual. The governments only purpose is to oversee the external relations between individuals, which they have full authority in any circumstance to do so.

Now there would be some tricky circumstances, but they would not be so tricky if the rationalizations for law were based on a thorough comprehension of subject and object.

My ideal government would be isolationist, in many ways


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/14/08 03:35 PM)

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: figmentfragment]
    #8282712 - 04/14/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I actually think no government could work. You can see degrees of difference in the power of a government across countries, to preposterously strong governments such as North Korea's, to less controlling like Denmark's. A government doesn't produce any wealth for the nation or any artifacts that enhance the quality of our lives.

Every other species survives by the sole governance of natural laws - I bet we could too.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282732 - 04/14/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

culture is our natural law, everything comes from nature.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8282787 - 04/14/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
The governments only purpose is to oversee the external relations between individuals, which they have full authority in any circumstance to do so.




That's incorrect. The American government only has authority (an abstract concept - such authority doesn't actually exist) to involve itself in affairs if an individual's right is being infringed upon by another. They technically have no jurisdiction otherwise. Of course, the government often infringes upon the rights of individuals. Who will govern them? The people, of course - its their government, but the people often prove themselves incapable of this.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #8282792 - 04/14/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

culture is a set of eccentricites particular to a social group; it is not law, natural or artificial

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282800 - 04/14/08 03:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Every other species survives by the sole governance of natural laws.




Erm, not so much...other species operate under social orders, too. We may not recognize the "government" of an anthill or wolf pack, but this does not mean that the only laws they must obey are natural laws. Everything with a brain lives according to both social rules AND natural laws.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282801 - 04/14/08 03:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
A government doesn't produce any wealth for the nation or any artifacts that enhance the quality of our lives.




The government facilitates the production of wealth and the enhancement of the quality of life.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
    #8282822 - 04/14/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Every other species survives by the sole governance of natural laws.




Erm, not so much...other species operate under social orders, too. We may not recognize the "government" of an anthill or wolf pack, but this does not mean that the only laws they must obey are natural laws. Everything with a brain lives according to both social rules AND natural laws.




Isn't this pattern closer to family?

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8282838 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

bradley said:
A government doesn't produce any wealth for the nation or any artifacts that enhance the quality of our lives.




The government facilitates the production of wealth and the enhancement of the quality of life.




:confused:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282839 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Only because many of the animals which live under a social order are coincidentally related.  Because humans choose to live together in larger groups, we cannot rely upon family governance to maintain the social order.

Family is not a natural law, either. :wink:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
    #8282871 - 04/14/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think the pitfall is that I don't really live with 30 million people, and it is impractical to have a pack leader of that many people. I see a decentralized society as much more sane.

Family is at least an immediate manifestation of biological laws.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282940 - 04/14/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
:confused:




You stated that government does not produce wealth or create something that affects quality of life, or something along those lines (don't remember exactly what regarding quality of life), but the fact is that a function of government is to facilitate the production of wealth and provide a means through which quality of life can be advanced.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8283064 - 04/14/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry...I understood why you said it, but I meant to express confusion on why you think government actually helps this process rather than hinders it.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283071 - 04/14/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Family is at least an immediate manifestation of biological laws




You mean reproduction?  How is this related to the rules imposed upon us by the leaders of our family groups?  These rules vary by the values held by the leaders, and are NOT a manifestation of biological laws.

Sorry, but the premise that other species are not governed is simply faulty. 

The governance of humans IS decentralized.  The president is NOT directly governing everyone in the U.S., as is obvious in our day-to-day lives.  We are more directly governed by local law enforcement and city councils, and THEY are governed by the next level of government, and so on.  This structure is unique to humans, but not really very different from animal governance when you break it down.  :shrug:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. *DELETED* [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283074 - 04/14/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: ps



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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8283484 - 04/14/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"The governance of humans IS decentralized. The president is NOT directly governing everyone in the U.S., as is obvious in our day-to-day lives. We are more directly governed by local law enforcement and city councils, and THEY are governed by the next level of government, and so on."

:lol: This is a centralized structure...its a hierarchy. Quite the opposite of a decentralized structure, which is anarchial.

"You mean reproduction? How is this related to the rules imposed upon us by the leaders of our family groups? These rules vary by the values held by the leaders, and are NOT a manifestation of biological laws."

Reproduction and all biological drives and functions. The fact that these biological rules differ from rules imposed on us by leaders is precisely my point. To paraphrase, you said "Look, animals have government too". And I responded, "But look again, it's decentralized and driven by biological, rather than contrived laws".

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8283530 - 04/14/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/inauguration_protest_pepperspray.htm

Is pepper spray necessary?




much worse has happened :shrug:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283534 - 04/14/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: you might have to club me

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283540 - 04/14/08 06:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Beanbag from a 12 gauge??


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8283558 - 04/14/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that almost sounds a little relaxing...maybe a few hitting my back would make a nice massage

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283563 - 04/14/08 06:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ah yeah. Rat tat tat


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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283584 - 04/14/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think that you may have a misconception about political decentralization. Here's what wiki has to say about it:

Quote:

Political Decentralization

Political decentralization aims to give citizens or their elected representatives more power in public decision-making. It is often associated with pluralistic politics and representative government, but it can also support democratization by giving citizens, or their representatives, more influence in the formulation and implementation of policies. Advocates of political decentralization assume that decisions made with greater participation will be better informed and more relevant to diverse interests in society than those made only by national political authorities. The concept implies that the selection of representatives from local electoral constituency allows citizens to know better their political representatives and allows elected officials to know better the needs and desires of their constituents. Political decentralization often requires constitutional or statutory reforms, creation of local political units, and the encouragement of effective public interest groups.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized#Decentralised_Governance

This is quite clearly not anarchy, (absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power) but rather an ideal democratic version of government. Now, you might argue that our current president is pushing for a MORE centralized government, but not that our current government is not based upon decentralization.

Now most animal governance is based upon a strict hierarchy, particularly among predators. In order to have ANY amount of power in the group, an animal usually has to fight their way to the top. Those who are not at the top often must wait to eat, mate, drink, etc...until after the leaders have had their fill. Animal governance is VERY centralized, and based upon social structures which go beyond basic biological drives.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8283889 - 04/14/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Unfortunately, you're correct that the American government works differently than my own ideal. What I said, seems to coincide with the original intentions of the founding fathers. Both the preceding and following is literally my interpretation of the founding father's basic intentions, not exactly limited to their own rhetoric.


The protection of rights is where I would disagree with you/"how it is". I said very little about rights, because I don't think they should exist more specifically than as protection of aesthetic freedom. To elaborate, it is nothing more than to exist in the matrix of culture. Your particularized description doesn't float my boat because it is a corporeal description of this.

Paraphrasing:
Quote:


The American government only has authority to involve itself in affairs if an individual's right is being infringed upon by another




If an individual has the personal desire is to smoke pot in his yard, this is his freedom. But say the family living next door believes this is unwholesome for their children's eyes. Would just seeing the pot smoker be an infringement upon the children's rights? I didn't go so far to say either way. An arbitrary decision must be made at some point, and there is really no way around this. At what point does disturbing the peace apply, and when does it not?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:


The American government only has authority (an abstract concept - such authority doesn't actually exist)




This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but not exactly. Authority is alright with me, as long as it is conceived as the power to rule, and not the right. The power exists within the matrix, the right does not.

So I would further elaborate that the term "right" is a more specifically the sensitive term in political language. If freedom is the ideal, why describe it with a word that is ultimately binding? It implies that an arbitrary line is absolute. This paradox is the basic precept of our government!

I think a huge step, although certainly not perfect in itself, would be to describe this same basic thing, except "negatively": in terms of freedom. Culture manifests a corporeality to right, but not so much freedom. Most people on some level know about freedom, and its not lolly golly. Freedom is nothing.





--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/14/08 09:27 PM)

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
    #8283913 - 04/14/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If wolf and ant "governments" are every bit as centralized as ours, where are their equivalents of the whitehouse?

Animals and humans may both have hierarchial distribution of power within families and "packs", but where is the ultimate top of the hierarchy in each species of animal?


You are right, "political decentralization" in the given definition is not a truly decentralized, anarchial structure. It is just a hierarchy with a plumper bottom.

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8284481 - 04/14/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

When speaking of what America fundamentally stands for, (Now I realize how ludicrous this statement is, but this patriotism is going to happen whether we like it or not.) we should realize that in the context of history. In this context, what is uniquely American is not our actual "rights", but our revolutionary conception of them.

The patriot act, is "patriotic" because it stands for rights. Basically, our right to not be blown up as a terrorist. How could I argue that this is unreasonable? It has nothing to do with the tragedy, but how it is conceptualized.

An intuitive American realizes that contradicting our basic democratic liberties, is not so clearly patriotic or American. (On a side note, this is also not conservative, as these goons make themselves out to be. In the same context i am trying to describe, conservative would actually be fundamentally libertarian.) This kind of patriotism pits the "right" against liberty. This corruption arises from the paradoxical nature of right. (described in my last post) The basic idea of the right that trumps all, is why we're in the situation we are.

There's no such thing as actual rights, so we shouldn't act like there is. In actuality, Our rights are a matter of convenience.

Around 40,000 people die a year in The US each year. (Ihttp://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html). These deaths could easily be prevented by stricter highway laws. If the speed limit was nationally 30 miles per hour, how many lives would that save? Instead we would rather get to work twice as quick then save those lives though. Where is the sacred right that triumphs for these 40,000 souls?

Now just for fun, try to find a statistic on terrorism, and compare the death counts. Heres one study, the top one from google.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/intlterror.html

None of the terrorism statistics are official. The US gov wont issue any number they can stick by. I wonder why....

Regaurdless what statistic you look at, even in the most generous, there are many many times more deaths by car accidents. If human rights were actually sacred, equal in nature, these numbers would determine the appropriate actions, which would be much different than the way things are run in our idealistic government.


PS

What makes this even better, is that it is perfectly conceivable how we could save these lives on the highways. But terrorism, we obviously have little clue.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/14/08 10:11 PM)

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8285547 - 04/15/08 04:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Animals and humans may both have hierarchial distribution of power within families and "packs", but where is the ultimate top of the hierarchy in each species of animal?




Uh.... the queen and the alpha male? :cuckoo:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8285719 - 04/15/08 06:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i disagree that any form of government is necessary, and i can back it up with pretty solid logic.. though i don't feel like going into one of those essay battles again.

i'll just simplify it and say,

Arguably.. the united states government is the most efficient form of government ever tried and tested in the real world. It does have some decent ideas as far as maintaining a balance.. but look at it today. It's a colossal failure as far as it's original intent and scope, just as all government to ever exist have been.

The reason for this, is those who seek the power to run the government, are not the ones who wish to abide by the limitations it implies.

Thus, you have a self perpetuating system of ever growing government, and ever growing oppression.

Government, by its very nature, is force.

No matter how perfect you design the system, it will always be exploited by those who wish to use it as a catalyst to enforce their beliefs on others lives.

I have no allegiance to the united states government. I have allegiance to freedom and liberty, and as far as i'm concerned if you don't have allegiance to freedom and liberty then you are not a patriot at all.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8285832 - 04/15/08 07:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
If an individual has the personal desire is to smoke pot in his yard, this is his freedom. But say the family living next door believes this is unwholesome for their children's eyes. Would just seeing the pot smoker be an infringement upon the children's rights?




Not according to the Constitution.

Quote:


I didn't go so far to say either way. An arbitrary decision must be made at some point, and there is really no way around this. At what point does disturbing the peace apply, and when does it not?




Naturally. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: anyone420]
    #8285850 - 04/15/08 08:00 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
The reason for this, is those who seek the power to run the government, are not the ones who wish to abide by the limitations it implies.




No, the reason for this is the lack of oversight by the American people, which is their responsibility and role within the government. It is not due to some innate flaw within the concept or the actualization of government itself.

Quote:


Thus, you have a self perpetuating system of ever growing government, and ever growing oppression.




No, there is no "self-perpetuating system". At any point in time, the American people could assume a greater role in ensuring that their government represents them as they intend to be represented. Failure in government is their failure.

Quote:


Government, by its very nature, is force.




The nature of everything is force.

Quote:


No matter how perfect you design the system, it will always be exploited by those who wish to use it as a catalyst to enforce their beliefs on others lives.




A foundation of the system of the United States' government is that of checks and balances. The check on the exploitation that you refer to is oversight by the people. If they do not assume their responsibility as that check, then of course there will be exploitation. Blaming this on the nature of the system itself is ignorant.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8285893 - 04/15/08 08:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree. When i came into existence on this planet, was i obligated to devote my life to ensuring that a system of supposed order is not exploited? I don't feel that i am obligated to do so, one should be able to live their life without constantly working within an ambiguous system to prevent their independence from being taken away. I'd rather live how i want to without having to play games with someone else's device to stay alive.

Government is self perpetuating by its nature. Cite a government in the history of mankind which didn't expand beyond its original intent. The supposed role of the government is to maintain order, and the means of doing can be micromanaging to no end.

What aspect of our lives does the government not have its nose into? It's estimated that a little under 1/3 people in the US is employed by the government, and this isn't counting private firms that are contracted by the government. And it continues to grow. You claim that government isn't self perpetuating, theres really no evidence to back this claim up. Only evidence of the opposite. When does the lawmaking end?

The checks and balances are fine and dandy, but what we have today is branches of the government, rather than being engaged in a 'battle to keep the government as small as possible' patting each other on the back and saying 'yeah, you can have this extra power, go ahead!"

Take a look at congress giving a single individual the power to decide where a border fence will go, and the ability do void any laws that interfere with the process in the name of expediency. This includes environmentally protected zones, endangered wildlife habitats, native american religous sites (burial sites), ect. Wouldn't it be far more expedient to just say fuck the system of government, lets elect a king george bush. Wouldn't it be more expedient to say, ok king george bush, you can have a 30 year term. Would the process of government not be more expedient in the hands of one person, than in the hands of say.. 600?

The people that run the government are there because they want to be, and no amount of citizen oversight will stop them.

You will begin to see more and more 'patting eachother on the back' by the branches of government. When will you draw the line and say, yeah, government has totally overstepped its bounds?


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for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: anyone420]
    #8285968 - 04/15/08 09:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
I don't feel that i am obligated to do so, one should be able to live their life without constantly working within an ambiguous system to prevent their independence from being taken away.




Where does your sense of how reality "should" be result from, but your own wishful thinking? Tens of thousands of years ago, human life itself, not to mention independence, was constantly challenged by predators who shared no regard for how their prey felt reality "should" be. The nature of reality is that there will always be forces that will seek to take advantage of others for their own gain. The simple fact is that the perspective that you have expressed here is the problem. Of course, you've greatly exaggerated the amount of time and effort that it would require people to practice effective oversight of their government.

Quote:


  I'd rather live how i want to without having to play games with someone else's device to stay alive.




You've came into being as the result of a species of life that is social by nature, and your survival lies dependent on the subsequent social order. Even if you were living on your own in the woods back in the day, you would still have been playing the survival game of another force's design, no matter how much you would rather not.

Quote:


Government is self perpetuating by its nature.




Self-perpetuating, yes. Of course, that is not what you originally spoke of. You specifically referred to a self-perpetuating system by which the size and scope of government increases. Changing what you are discussing instead of addressing the response to what you originally were discussing is not how one has a debate.

Quote:


What aspect of our lives does the government not have its nose into?




95% of our day-to-day life.

Quote:


  It's estimated that a little under 1/3 people in the US is employed by the government




Source? :sherlock:

Quote:


You claim that government isn't self perpetuating




No I didn't. I contested the assertion that those who seek to be government officials who do not wish to abide by the limitations on their power create a self-perpetuating system by which government continues to "grow". You deny the fact that a lack of oversight by the people is what is responsible for malignant growth of government when it is clearly the case.

Quote:


The checks and balances are fine and dandy, but what we have today is branches of the government, rather than being engaged in a 'battle to keep the government as small as possible' patting each other on the back and saying 'yeah, you can have this extra power, go ahead!"




Could you rephrase this statement? It doesn't make any sense. I clearly referred to the check on the government itself by the people.

Quote:


Take a look at congress giving a single individual the power to decide where a border fence will go, and the ability do void any laws that interfere with the process in the name of expediency.  This includes environmentally protected zones, endangered wildlife habitats, native american religous sites (burial sites), ect.




A great example of lack of oversight by the people, who elect representatives to Congress and are to oversee their actions in Congress and take steps to ensure that their representatives respect and act upon their will. Of course, this is assuming that the people do not want such an act to occur, perhaps they do.

Quote:


  Wouldn't it be far more expedient to just say fuck the system of government, lets elect a king george bush.  Wouldn't it be more expedient to say, ok king george bush, you can have a 30 year term.  Would the process of government not be more expedient in the hands of one person, than in the hands of say.. 600?




It would be more expedient, but I certainly don't see how this form of government would be more beneficial for the people, which is probably why this form of government is not much more than an antiquity in this day and age. 

Quote:


The people that run the government are there because they want to be, and no amount of citizen oversight will stop them.




Oh, that's right... people don't elect their representatives. Silly me. :shrug: 

Quote:


You will begin to see more and more 'patting eachother on the back' by the branches of government.  When will you draw the line and say, yeah, government has totally overstepped its bounds?




I've already clearly stated in this thread that I personally feel the American government exists in a form beyond the one that it is granted by the Constitution. However, I also fully recognize that those who are responsible for this is the American people.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8286084 - 04/15/08 09:43 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I didn't change what i was talking about. I think you misunderstood. I speak of the system as the government itself. The governmental system is self perpetuating. And i don't know why your being so aggressive, lol. I guess your in debate mode but i'm just speaking my mind. I don't claim to be a professional debater, i'm simply a person that does not wish to be governed.

Anyway, so your saying that the people haven't tried hard enough to keep the government small? The past 40 years of libertarian activism has resulted in.. nothing at all. Were they simply not trying hard enough?

I think where we are misunderstanding eachother, is i do not believe that the self-perpetuating nature of the governmental system can be remedied by the rules inherent to the system. I could devote my life to this cause, and for every small victory i had, 50 more laws and regulations would be passed. As far as representatives being elected, I didn't vote for them, and this will tie into my later point, that a democratic system of government simply doesn't work.

And we are getting rather side tracked from the original intent of the topic, which was is government a necessary.

I don't think it is necessary, and i don't think its right to force others to participate in it against their will. What's so outrageous about me living my life as i choose to do so, without someone telling me what is right and wrong? Do you think that the people in the white house know whats best for you? They want to enslave and rob you.

What government functions and services could not be offered by the market place?

Anything not offered on a voluntary basis, as in, anything that is coercive and invasive is wrong.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: anyone420]
    #8286099 - 04/15/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

anyone420 said:
Arguably.. the united states government is the most efficient form of government ever tried and tested in the real world.




I would argue that Facism was the most efficient form of government ever tried and tested in the real world. It was the least beneficial for the people, but damn effective in terms of efficiency. None of Hitler's policies got lost in any bureacratic red tape...no philibustering...no congress refusing to pass a bill...no supreme court interference. If you are talking in terms of efficiency, US Democracy is a nightmare compared to a Facist system. If you are talking in terms of civil liberty and a system of checks and balances backed by a constitution, its vice versa.

Quote:

The reason for this, is those who seek the power to run the government, are not the ones who wish to abide by the limitations it implies.

Thus, you have a self perpetuating system of ever growing government, and ever growing oppression.

Government, by its very nature, is force.

No matter how perfect you design the system, it will always be exploited by those who wish to use it as a catalyst to enforce their beliefs on others lives.




Reminds me of Plato's dialogues on Morality. He said that the people most fit to rule are not those who are desirous of power, but those who are willing to assume positions of power because they see an opportunity to run things better than those who are corrupt. A refreshing idea isn't it? Kind of makes you wish the DNC and RNC would all be swept away in a vast tempest.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: gluke bastid]
    #8286118 - 04/15/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ah, thanks for pointing it out.

efficient was probably a poor word choice, but i think you got the idea.. i meant the most.. uh.. balanced shall we say? in terms of a balance between liberty and government which infringes on liberty.

and yes i agree, with that little plato paraphrase. and it makes a ton of sense, and says a great deal about the system.

Edited by anyone420 (04/15/08 10:00 AM)

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