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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8282838 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

bradley said:
A government doesn't produce any wealth for the nation or any artifacts that enhance the quality of our lives.




The government facilitates the production of wealth and the enhancement of the quality of life.




:confused:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282839 - 04/14/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Only because many of the animals which live under a social order are coincidentally related.  Because humans choose to live together in larger groups, we cannot rely upon family governance to maintain the social order.

Family is not a natural law, either. :wink:

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
    #8282871 - 04/14/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think the pitfall is that I don't really live with 30 million people, and it is impractical to have a pack leader of that many people. I see a decentralized society as much more sane.

Family is at least an immediate manifestation of biological laws.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8282940 - 04/14/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
:confused:




You stated that government does not produce wealth or create something that affects quality of life, or something along those lines (don't remember exactly what regarding quality of life), but the fact is that a function of government is to facilitate the production of wealth and provide a means through which quality of life can be advanced.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8283064 - 04/14/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry...I understood why you said it, but I meant to express confusion on why you think government actually helps this process rather than hinders it.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283071 - 04/14/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Family is at least an immediate manifestation of biological laws




You mean reproduction?  How is this related to the rules imposed upon us by the leaders of our family groups?  These rules vary by the values held by the leaders, and are NOT a manifestation of biological laws.

Sorry, but the premise that other species are not governed is simply faulty. 

The governance of humans IS decentralized.  The president is NOT directly governing everyone in the U.S., as is obvious in our day-to-day lives.  We are more directly governed by local law enforcement and city councils, and THEY are governed by the next level of government, and so on.  This structure is unique to humans, but not really very different from animal governance when you break it down.  :shrug:

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. *DELETED* [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283074 - 04/14/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: ps



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8283484 - 04/14/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

"The governance of humans IS decentralized. The president is NOT directly governing everyone in the U.S., as is obvious in our day-to-day lives. We are more directly governed by local law enforcement and city councils, and THEY are governed by the next level of government, and so on."

:lol: This is a centralized structure...its a hierarchy. Quite the opposite of a decentralized structure, which is anarchial.

"You mean reproduction? How is this related to the rules imposed upon us by the leaders of our family groups? These rules vary by the values held by the leaders, and are NOT a manifestation of biological laws."

Reproduction and all biological drives and functions. The fact that these biological rules differ from rules imposed on us by leaders is precisely my point. To paraphrase, you said "Look, animals have government too". And I responded, "But look again, it's decentralized and driven by biological, rather than contrived laws".

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #8283530 - 04/14/08 06:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/inauguration_protest_pepperspray.htm

Is pepper spray necessary?




much worse has happened :shrug:

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283534 - 04/14/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: you might have to club me

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283540 - 04/14/08 06:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Beanbag from a 12 gauge??


--------------------

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8283558 - 04/14/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

that almost sounds a little relaxing...maybe a few hitting my back would make a nice massage

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283563 - 04/14/08 06:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ah yeah. Rat tat tat


--------------------

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8283584 - 04/14/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think that you may have a misconception about political decentralization. Here's what wiki has to say about it:

Quote:

Political Decentralization

Political decentralization aims to give citizens or their elected representatives more power in public decision-making. It is often associated with pluralistic politics and representative government, but it can also support democratization by giving citizens, or their representatives, more influence in the formulation and implementation of policies. Advocates of political decentralization assume that decisions made with greater participation will be better informed and more relevant to diverse interests in society than those made only by national political authorities. The concept implies that the selection of representatives from local electoral constituency allows citizens to know better their political representatives and allows elected officials to know better the needs and desires of their constituents. Political decentralization often requires constitutional or statutory reforms, creation of local political units, and the encouragement of effective public interest groups.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized#Decentralised_Governance

This is quite clearly not anarchy, (absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power) but rather an ideal democratic version of government. Now, you might argue that our current president is pushing for a MORE centralized government, but not that our current government is not based upon decentralization.

Now most animal governance is based upon a strict hierarchy, particularly among predators. In order to have ANY amount of power in the group, an animal usually has to fight their way to the top. Those who are not at the top often must wait to eat, mate, drink, etc...until after the leaders have had their fill. Animal governance is VERY centralized, and based upon social structures which go beyond basic biological drives.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8283889 - 04/14/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Unfortunately, you're correct that the American government works differently than my own ideal. What I said, seems to coincide with the original intentions of the founding fathers. Both the preceding and following is literally my interpretation of the founding father's basic intentions, not exactly limited to their own rhetoric.


The protection of rights is where I would disagree with you/"how it is". I said very little about rights, because I don't think they should exist more specifically than as protection of aesthetic freedom. To elaborate, it is nothing more than to exist in the matrix of culture. Your particularized description doesn't float my boat because it is a corporeal description of this.

Paraphrasing:
Quote:


The American government only has authority to involve itself in affairs if an individual's right is being infringed upon by another




If an individual has the personal desire is to smoke pot in his yard, this is his freedom. But say the family living next door believes this is unwholesome for their children's eyes. Would just seeing the pot smoker be an infringement upon the children's rights? I didn't go so far to say either way. An arbitrary decision must be made at some point, and there is really no way around this. At what point does disturbing the peace apply, and when does it not?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:


The American government only has authority (an abstract concept - such authority doesn't actually exist)




This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but not exactly. Authority is alright with me, as long as it is conceived as the power to rule, and not the right. The power exists within the matrix, the right does not.

So I would further elaborate that the term "right" is a more specifically the sensitive term in political language. If freedom is the ideal, why describe it with a word that is ultimately binding? It implies that an arbitrary line is absolute. This paradox is the basic precept of our government!

I think a huge step, although certainly not perfect in itself, would be to describe this same basic thing, except "negatively": in terms of freedom. Culture manifests a corporeality to right, but not so much freedom. Most people on some level know about freedom, and its not lolly golly. Freedom is nothing.





--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/14/08 09:27 PM)

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Veritas]
    #8283913 - 04/14/08 08:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If wolf and ant "governments" are every bit as centralized as ours, where are their equivalents of the whitehouse?

Animals and humans may both have hierarchial distribution of power within families and "packs", but where is the ultimate top of the hierarchy in each species of animal?


You are right, "political decentralization" in the given definition is not a truly decentralized, anarchial structure. It is just a hierarchy with a plumper bottom.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8284481 - 04/14/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

When speaking of what America fundamentally stands for, (Now I realize how ludicrous this statement is, but this patriotism is going to happen whether we like it or not.) we should realize that in the context of history. In this context, what is uniquely American is not our actual "rights", but our revolutionary conception of them.

The patriot act, is "patriotic" because it stands for rights. Basically, our right to not be blown up as a terrorist. How could I argue that this is unreasonable? It has nothing to do with the tragedy, but how it is conceptualized.

An intuitive American realizes that contradicting our basic democratic liberties, is not so clearly patriotic or American. (On a side note, this is also not conservative, as these goons make themselves out to be. In the same context i am trying to describe, conservative would actually be fundamentally libertarian.) This kind of patriotism pits the "right" against liberty. This corruption arises from the paradoxical nature of right. (described in my last post) The basic idea of the right that trumps all, is why we're in the situation we are.

There's no such thing as actual rights, so we shouldn't act like there is. In actuality, Our rights are a matter of convenience.

Around 40,000 people die a year in The US each year. (Ihttp://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html). These deaths could easily be prevented by stricter highway laws. If the speed limit was nationally 30 miles per hour, how many lives would that save? Instead we would rather get to work twice as quick then save those lives though. Where is the sacred right that triumphs for these 40,000 souls?

Now just for fun, try to find a statistic on terrorism, and compare the death counts. Heres one study, the top one from google.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/intlterror.html

None of the terrorism statistics are official. The US gov wont issue any number they can stick by. I wonder why....

Regaurdless what statistic you look at, even in the most generous, there are many many times more deaths by car accidents. If human rights were actually sacred, equal in nature, these numbers would determine the appropriate actions, which would be much different than the way things are run in our idealistic government.


PS

What makes this even better, is that it is perfectly conceivable how we could save these lives on the highways. But terrorism, we obviously have little clue.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/14/08 10:11 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: Epigallo]
    #8285547 - 04/15/08 04:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bradley said:
Animals and humans may both have hierarchial distribution of power within families and "packs", but where is the ultimate top of the hierarchy in each species of animal?




Uh.... the queen and the alpha male? :cuckoo:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineanyone420
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8285719 - 04/15/08 06:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i disagree that any form of government is necessary, and i can back it up with pretty solid logic.. though i don't feel like going into one of those essay battles again.

i'll just simplify it and say,

Arguably.. the united states government is the most efficient form of government ever tried and tested in the real world. It does have some decent ideas as far as maintaining a balance.. but look at it today. It's a colossal failure as far as it's original intent and scope, just as all government to ever exist have been.

The reason for this, is those who seek the power to run the government, are not the ones who wish to abide by the limitations it implies.

Thus, you have a self perpetuating system of ever growing government, and ever growing oppression.

Government, by its very nature, is force.

No matter how perfect you design the system, it will always be exploited by those who wish to use it as a catalyst to enforce their beliefs on others lives.

I have no allegiance to the united states government. I have allegiance to freedom and liberty, and as far as i'm concerned if you don't have allegiance to freedom and liberty then you are not a patriot at all.


--------------------
for all y’all niggaz out there that be puffin shit
when the music go on, y’all listen to this alright

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Government as a necessary evil. [Re: daytripper23]
    #8285832 - 04/15/08 07:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
If an individual has the personal desire is to smoke pot in his yard, this is his freedom. But say the family living next door believes this is unwholesome for their children's eyes. Would just seeing the pot smoker be an infringement upon the children's rights?




Not according to the Constitution.

Quote:


I didn't go so far to say either way. An arbitrary decision must be made at some point, and there is really no way around this. At what point does disturbing the peace apply, and when does it not?




Naturally. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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